A few Bitchery readers have sent me a veritable buffet of links regarding a recent J.R. Ward fluff online at her author-hosted bulletin boards. Seems a reader went to Ward’s BB community, and posted her opinion about Ward’s series, specifically about the slang used by some characters, and the gay undertones in some of the scenes, and asked if anyone noticed the same things she noted.
I can’t link to the thread in question as it’s for members only. But from my understanding, the writer of the original post was blasted online by “rabid fangirls” of Ward’s community, and ultimately ended up banned from the boards. Since I can’t directly read the thread or witness the alleged harshness that greeted this reader’s questions, I have rely on what others have said.
What strikes me as curious is that a few bloggers hold Ward responsible for the behavior of the fans on her site. DishingDiva states that the boards are hosted and moderated by Ward and thus the attacks and banning were condoned as she must have been aware that they were happening.
Now, we here at SBTB, we are big fans of authors behaving in entertaining fashion, and we are more than aware that there are some people out there on the wild, wild internet that take their reading very, very seriously. But is an author responsible for the allegedly buttheaded behavior of their readership?
I pose the same question to myself – if we were (un)fortunate to attract a troll, would it be my responsibility to ban and delete that user’s posts until they signed up again under a different user name from a different IP? Looking at it from a “person who hosts the discussion” perspective, I’d have to say that I’m not entirely responsible for what other people say. If someone signed up for membership and started posting after every review how much Candy and I suck and how we’re absolutely horrible people to be so mean to those nice romance writers like Cassie Edwards, it’d be annoying but I’d probably let it stand, since hey, that’s their opinion and they’re welcome to it, even on our site.
In fact, I’d lose credibility if I started deleting the posts I disagreed with, or banning users who caused trouble on the site. I’m not saying I love the squabbles just for their own sake, but no one here has disgreed by name calling or demanding that they be banned from the register of Bitches. If that’s what happened on Ward’s site, if she deleted the original poster because she didn’t want gay undertones discussed on the site, well, it’s her prerogative to edit her boards however she wants, though I’d disagree heartily with that decision.
I also know the community here is pretty intelligent and enjoys a good discussion, even a heated one from multiple points of view, and would probably ignore a troll until it went away. Or at least have some delicious fun at its expense. At the very least, I can always count on the Bitchery members to disagree with class and style, even when heated issues light up the stats like someone farted on a match.
So do I think Ward is responsible for the behaviour of her fans? Nah. Was it a dumb move to ban a user who asked questions that some fans didn’t like? Yup. Does it suck that people can be buttnoids online? Sure it does. But then, some people out there think Candy and I are the buttnoids.
I’ve asked Ward a personal question about other non-normative sexualities in her novels and she replied personally to me in ways that suggest that she absolutely knows about how gay her characters are. I can’t see her having a problem with it. Her raving fangirls? Yes, but not her.
I also know from discussion with Suz Brockmann that Ward has talked with her about crazy fangirls, asking for advice on how to deal with them. Because they both have them.
That being said, I can understand how she would fall victim to her own press—I imagine it would be very difficult to avoid doing so for anyone, if we’re honest with ourselves. She also hasn’t actually been on the boards recently, as far as I can tell (except for Friday night), so I don’t know how aware she is of all this happening (although she probably is—she’s a complete control freak).
Are people shitty assholes? Yes. Can we assume Ward is? Not me. I’d need more confirmation, more extended examples of being an idiot, before I stopped buying her books. But then, I love me some Brotherhood.
Rereading, this came out sounding more defensive of Ward than I meant it to. Authors behaving badly are fun, that’s for sure, but I don’t see the direct cause-effect right now for Ward, so I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt.
I’d be way shocked to discover J.R. Ward banned anyone, unless this person was obviously causing grief for the sake of being a pain in the ass. That’s pretty obvious – not a person expressing their opinion, but deliberately being an asshole. Let’s face it, assholes exist, and they crawl out from under piles of dogshit sometimes – especially when somone is enjoying success just a leetle bit too much.
Not that this is the case here – I haven’t got a clue.
Author message boards aren’t the same as a blog, I don’t think. I don’t have one, but if I did, I’d set it up so people could talk about my books. Discuss what’s coming next, what they liked and didn’t like about the books out now. If someone said they didn’t much care for language or content or whatever, I’d be bummed, because hey, who likes criticism? But I wouldn’t ban them from the boards – which is why I really can’t think Ward would do so.
Unless, as I mentioned earlier, an asshole crawled out and started hurling dogshit. Then I’d ban them, because who needs it? Wouldn’t it be like throwing a party and having someone show up loaded, drunk and obnoxious? Dude starts dissing me and my house and the other guests, maybe throwing up on somebody’s shoes, he’s so outta there.
I have heard that Ward’s fans are pretty over the top. *shrugs* Who knows what’s up?
FWIW, the mods posted this on Thursday:
“In the past couple of days we had two threads removed because of disrespectful content and personal attacks of other members of the board. We will not allow personal attacks or disrespectful posts to stay on the board. They will be removed. If you have questions about the books, or there are scenes in the book that you disliked you have the option of posting about them but your views must be posted in a respectful manner. If you disagree with someone else’s opinion you also can voice your opinion but again, do so respectfully. Several people have been deactivated over this issue on BOTH sides. Disregard for the rules will not be tolerated nor will we tolerate attacks on other members of the board.
“If you cannot be respectful to each other or you feel a post is not respectful, you need to report the offending post to the moderators and not take matters into your own hands. This causes more problems and just adds fuel to the fire. There will be people who join the board just to see if they can start a riot for their own gain and unfortunately that is exactly what happened with this whole situation. What better way to drive traffic to your site than by causing trouble on a very active message board then taking it to your own site to have the throw down.
“ALL of you are guests on this message board. This board is not here for you to bash each other. If you choose not to follow the rules and post your questions and opinions in a respectful manner then you will be removed from the board.
“Finally, why is the board PG13 and the books not? Simply an issue of decorum. And as this is an ADULT membership only board, as adults we should be able to hold conversations WITHOUT using rude and obnoxious language.
“As always, if you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to contact the MODs.”
So, apparently they deleted from both sides of the aisle, if that can be believed.
I can’t wait to see the shitstorm this post dregs up tomorrow when the Cellies (god bless their crazy little hearts) get ahold of this! 😉 But then I’m a sadistic bitch and I love watching people behaving badly.
Should other readers hold J. R. Ward responsible for the behavior of her rabid fangirls? I think that is making Ward liable and accountable for every opinion/gush/complaint out there about her books. I loved Lover Awakened but I know there are others who didn’t. But I’m not flaming each and every person who disagrees with me.
That’s the wonderful thing about opinions—everyone has one! I don’t necessarily have to like yours and you don’t have to like me. Was the banning and other bad behavior necessary? Not in my opinion.
I do feel sorry for the reader who was banned. I wonder if it’s left a bad taste in her mouth for J. R. Ward’s future books. And I don’t believe Ward can be held accountable for her fans’ actions. Should she re-think how her board is run? Definitely.
I don’t know looking at some of the comments on the other blogs it seems that there probably was blame on both sides.
I know some trolls specifically go to boards to stir up trouble. I know it has happened on ADWOFF. Its a fine line between supporting an author you admire and respect and being rabid. I think flame wars can sprout up quickly. Anyway J.R. Ward’s books are still on my TBR pile and I plan to read them. I don’t think she should be expected to spend all her time patrolling her fanboards.
Forgot to say:
I’m a rabid fangirl of Sarah and Candy – anybody calls you buttnoids, I’ll call ‘em cheap, two-bit ho-bags with bad hair and ugly mothers.
I think a couple of things here:
1)You can’t claim you don’t know that you run that risk if you do post a criticism of any kind on an author’s fan BB. Sometimes it’s the author themselves crying foul. You pays your money; you takes your chances.
2) I did see the thread and s/he was warned. I think it did cross the line from critique to complaint or bashing. I’ve posting criticisms before and not felt flamed or the like. It is in how you phrase it.
3) Every author has rabid fans. We wouldn’t have trekkies, WoW, or Harry Potter without them. Are JRW’s fans over the edge? Probably. But then, she’s a new-er author. How many Pern fans are still getting together to talk about Dragon sex? I probably saw a lot of them down in Atlanta recently, but I’m willing to bet that there aren’t nearly as many as there were when McCaffrey’s books were peaking.
4) JRW’s a lawyer… so, she’s probably not going to address this issue. And I’m not sure she should. She has moderators (allegedly rabid or otherwise) and they, as far as I know, make the calls. If I was trying to write and had a BB with even 100 members, I’d want someone else who could be on it all the time to moderate.
And that’s sort of the kicker for me. I like all the extra tidbits that I get being a member on the boards. Heck, I’m even a RPG’er and Star Trek fan, so I enjoy the times when her characters “post” to the boards. But, I basically ignore the people who do not seem to be grounded in reality, who… take it too far.
I don’t think an author should per se be responsible for what goes on in her messageboards (although as an atty, I’m sure Ward knows where those lines are). But here’s my question: does a particular author help set a tone for her messageboards, directly or indirectly?
I understand that some folks just are where they are in terms of extreme fandom, but does an author have ANY influence on the character, nature, tone, and direction of discussions on her boards? After all, it IS in Ward’s best interest, as an author of books she wants to sell, to have readers buy lock, stock, and barrel into the fictional world she’s created.
Also, as I love gossip, can anyone explain some of the charges re Ward buying into her own hype? It’s actually something I’ve wondered about since the second book in the series, but it’s been more of an intuition than anything else.
You know, I commented on some of the stuff I saw in JRW’s first book on another list. Mostly about the way the brotherhood spoke in acronyms. I found it annoying and unbelievable, my opinion. The response I got wasn’t wildly loving. Should have stuck with bashing LKH. Now I hear about this flare up on her boards. I foresee more interesting things to come.
Still, I don’t see how an author can be held responsible for the actions of looney fans. It isn’t reasonable, it isn’t practical, it’s unfair.
But there is a question here – SB Sarah, what would you do if this blog was taken over by people with views you just couldn’t stomach, couldn’t support?
***Also, as I love gossip, can anyone explain some of the charges re Ward buying into her own hype?***
Robin, I don’t understand this question. I seriously doubt I can answer at any rate – but I want to understand what you’re asking.
Robin, I don’t understand this question. I seriously doubt I can answer at any rate – but I want to understand what you’re asking.
I have read on a couple of blogs that Ward is “buying into her own hype” (which I assume means letting success go to her head). Since I’m not really part of all the inside stuff with this series, including thee messageboard, I’m wondering what people mean when they say this. In other, what are the incidents that lead individuals to say that Ward is “buying into her own hype”?
Stef said:
Unless, as I mentioned earlier, an asshole crawled out and started hurling dogshit. Then I’d ban them, because who needs it? Wouldn’t it be like throwing a party and having someone show up loaded, drunk and obnoxious? Dude starts dissing me and my house and the other guests, maybe throwing up on somebody’s shoes, he’s so outta there.
And Desertwillow said:
But there is a question here – SB Sarah, what would you do if this blog was taken over by people with views you just couldn’t stomach, couldn’t support?
****
I totally agree with Stef, if someone is making an ass out of themselves to the point they’re puking on my carpet, or let’s say, started trying to rip a new asshole into one of my friends, it’s time to kick that person’s ass right out the door. I kind of doubt JRW has the time to notice all the crap going on the BB but if she did see something out of control and asked the moderators to kick some folks out of the party, I’m supportive of that stance. However, if she hadn’t of done that, I wouldn’t fault her or the moderators becuase it’s still her house and her call.
Now, regarding what Desertwillow said, comin’ over to our favorite Bitches house to raise a stink is a whole different matter. It’s kind of like stepping into the toughest bar in the town where hardest, most intelligent, edgiest women love to hang out. Somebody comes over here and tries to start a shitstorm, they’ll find their asses handed back to them on a platter.
(Hey, it’s already happened a few times much to my enjoyment, LOL!)
I broke my vow to not follow links or read a lot of blogshit – way too time consuming, and about as unproductive as eating deep-fried Twinkies. Still, some days you just gotta eat artery-clogging shit. Or read pointless BS. I clicked on Sarah’s link and read something like 150+ comments to the banned fan’s blog. Whoo damn – what a deal. Then I thought, well, hell, in for a penny, in for a pound, and clicked on other links about this…what do I call it? Altercation?
I have no opinion. Honestly. I just don’t care.
As for JRW buying into her hype – I suspect she’s a busy little bee, writing her ass off to keep up with a six month production schedule. These are loooong books. I saw somewhere that there are 3200 people on her boards – that’s just her boards. Imagine all the email she gets. Hell, I get just a few a week, and I find it hard to keep up with answering. So maybe a few fans haven’t been answered and feel snubbed and assume she’s a Big Head who thinks she’s the shit. Who knows?
And really – who cares? But then, I’m not big into falling in love with an author – it’s the books I fall in love with. She/He can be a two-headed giant with a God complex, but if she/he writes great books, I’m there.
Actually, I just lied like a dog. I know a few authors, personally, whose books I won’t buy because they’re rude and nasty. But these are people I actually know. And they’re not Big Heads. They’re just mean spirited.
Okay, I’ve reached the month’s limit on blog-hopping and comments. I even wrote a post on my own blog today. Hell hath surely frozen over!
I leave you all to figure out JR Ward and the altercation and the presence or absence of a head too big. Me, I’m going to bed. 🙂
I pose the same question to myself – if we were (un)fortunate to attract a troll, would it be my responsibility to ban and delete that user’s posts until they signed up again under a different user name from a different IP?
******
I don’t think it’s a ‘responsibility’ issue per se. It’s an issue of how much irritation you want in your daily life. Unlike many authors, you read the comments at your site everyday. Think how annoying it would be to have to read trollish crap every day, and then think how much easier it would be to just push the ‘block user’ button instead.
A personal website is not a democracy – it’s more like an authoritarian state. You can choose to be a benign dictator (if you like!), but you still get to be dictator. I wouldn’t go back and delete what’s already been said, but I would block trolls from posting more.
IMO each person is responsible for their own actions, nobody should have to be responsible for crazed fans.
There are authors I do not like, others I used to like and no longer read. The answer is simple, if you don’t like it, don’t read it…throw it out in the yard and let the neighborhood dogs pee on it for all I care. But some fans need to grow up and quit whining.
Should obnoxious fans be 86’d from author websites? Do whatever you like, it’s your website…fans that don’t like it can go play in a different sandbox. But please cease the immature whining, unless it’s entertaining.
As far as I know there’s a company JR hired to moderate her forum and they are very serious about it! JR was participating in a workshop I was having and I posted info about it on her board and got a very scathing email about doing promo on the board. Even though JR was participating in the event I was promoting. Go figure.
OK, first my full disclosure: I’m a JRW fan (but certainly not rabid).
Having said that, I can and do separate her books from her fans. I saw the Mod post that Sarah posted above but since I totally missed the thread before it disappeared, I can’t really comment on what happened. I do know other board participants who were involved in another thread deleted for “inappropriate content” and frankly, they were OK with it. Shrug and move on. But I don’t think that one degenerated into personal attacks.
There’s a code of conduct on the board, which people are expected to follow. If posters feel attacked, they’re supposed to report it. BUT I realise that’s easier said than done. I tend to think there was bad behaviour on both sides because I’ve seen quite a few comments along the same lines as Dylan’s and those threads didn’t get personal. I know other Cellies who love to read gay romances and do titter about some of the brotherly bonding scenes so I’m not sure what made Dylan’s post stand out.
As for JRW answering questions, I’ve always found her quite open and receptive. She has answered two of my e-mails and most of my questions on blogs without knowing who I am. (And I’ve seen people remind her about their questions when she misses them so maybe Holly should have done that, too.) I agree she’s more responsive to some long-time members/frequent posters on the board but really, does she have time to personally welcome each and every member? I don’t think she is deliberately exclusionary. I’ve seen people with only 1 or 2 posts to their names whose questions have been answered personally by JRW.
What I do find appalling are some of the comments on the blogs by self-avowed Cellies, who have continued with the personal attacks. I think it smacks of the mob mentality and makes me cringe and frankly, feel a bit sorry for JRW that she’s being associated with this behaviour.
If JRW was an author who had a minimal online presence I wouldn’t find her silence at all odd or insulting. Since she DOES post on the board and she HAS an active online presence, I feel (and this is just my opinion) that she should have called off those rabid fans. And she could have, make no mistake about that. I feel that if she can come out from behind her her busy schedule to “play” with her fans, then she can do the same when some of her fans are treated like shit. That’s all I’m holding her responsible for. Not for their terrible behavior. Never that.
As for the MOD’s retarded accusation that I posted to get traffic for my blog…nice conspiracy theory and a way to explain away your own disgusting behavior, but not true. I’m not selling anything or promoting anything so why should I care if I get one hit or one million hits? It’s a blog people, not a store that if I pulled in traffic, I might sell more of something.
What should have been something small blew up into something ugly for no reason. All Dylan did was post a few questions and comments to an author about things she wanted answered about LA. If she came off as rude, THAT should have been addressed. Privately, by the MOD’s. Instead, she was allowed to be attacked for three pages worth of posts and then banned before the thread was deleted. That I thought was wrong. Especially since it all happened before she had a chance to go back and defend herself. And I’m entilted to that opinion. I’m not asking you to feel the same way. I’m just saying I’m allowed to think the way the MOD’s and the “cellies” went about things was dead wrong.
And if the Smart Bitches began censoring their posters what a sad and less-colorful world it would be! But then, I don’t believe in censoring. If I did I have deleted at least 100 out of the 126 nasty comments left by JRW’s loving “cellies” on my blog. One of which even suggested that “Z” should kill Dylan.
I believe the SBs have the right to throw out anyone they believe is behaving badly. This is your space. You set it up, you’re paying for the bandwidth, and as has been pointed out, it’s like some obnoxious drunk coming over and trashing your house.
I work in other forums and there seems to be a misconception that blogs and forums are subject to First Amendment and freedom of the press rules, and that’s simply not true. I prefer the benevolent dictatorship analogy.
And I like my mental image of Candy doing some wire-fu high kicks upside some rude person’s head.
I personally hate rabid fangirls. i hate lemminglike behavior of any kind. No one is perfect, and we all screw up. So blind adoration annoys me.
My opinion is if it’s your site and someone is acting like a total ass, you do have the right to edit posts, but then where does it end? Removing or editing posts, no.
But telling your RFGs to act like people, yes. If they worship you that much, they’ll chill the hell out. As an author, you don’t want to alienate ANYONE who might buy your stuff.
the toughest bar in the town where hardest, most intelligent, edgiest women love to hang out.
Smart Bitches is the place where the cool kids are? Do that mean I finally get to be cool?
(Sorry, I have nothing to add. Just want to follow the thread!)
“Does” not “do” – what an idiot. See? Still not cool, not even here.
*sigh* Okay I was one of the girls banned from JR’s site. Hmmm, not going to go all into it again. Just wanted to say that your post was very well writen and the comments were very respectful. Wish it were like this everywhere. lol. But hey, the worlds not perfect. I’m not about author love as someone said either. The only time I go to their boards is if I need clarification on something in their books. Sooooo just for the record: Dylan was not just stiring up shit. And JR should have control of her own board, and if she doesn’t? She should take it down. Let the rabid fans make their own MB then it won’t reflect on JR cause it’s not on her site.
Oh and if you want to read the post Dylan had posted that started it all? Go here: http://sanctuarysbookblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/secret-underground-cult-nopejust-some.html
Having followed this from the beginning and even before, the posters banned ARE big fans of J.R. Wards’s books. It’s not like they went there to diss on them. Dylan had a few questions – being a fan and all. And though I missed what the fans had to say to her – I will NEVER visit an author message board I have to actually register for – I am able to separate the books from the author and will never get that invested in an author to the extent rabid fan girls do, it seems they took it way beyond rational limits. As to the author herself, she seems like a very nice person who is attentative and caring to her fans, I do think her and other authors with over the top fans should step in once in a while and say to the more “enthusiastic” ones – hey – chill for a bit. I think they should do that for their own protection. Rabid, over the top fans can do some pretty nasty damage to an author’s reputation me thinks. And that’s too bad because it’s not the fans that would feel the fallout of their own nasty behaviour.
I don’t know how J.R. Ward’s board is set up. On ADWOFF there are many sections, many threads under those sections. I’d never get anything done if I read all of them daily, or even now and again. There are a specific few I visit, and one I go into daily—or nearly—to answer specific questions.
Posters occasionally get cranky, or downright confrontational. Mods usually cool things down. I will, if it seems appropriate or required, post a comment or opinion crafted to do the same.
It isn’t my board, but a fan-generated board where I participate. Even if it was mine, run by me, I don’t know how I might control a flame-war. I’m thinking deleting the posts would be a last resort. Locking the thread would probably come first. But I don’t really know the ins and outs of running a MB.
I do know that as a writer I don’t feel—and don’t want to be expected to feel—responsible for the actions or the posts of my readers for good or ill. Certainly on a board about my books, where I have a presence I’d try to put out the flames—if I were around to do so. Not always around though. I don’t know Ward, but I don’t imagine she’s always around either.
I’d also like to say that imo everyone’s a buttnoid now and then. Otherwise, life would be pretty dull. Cyberworld would certainly be much less entertaining without regular scoopings of buttnoidyess behavior.
Hi Mrs. Roberts. Thank you for your input. I feel the same way as you, only you expressed it more eloquently than I have.
I don’t expect JRW to put herself in the center of a flame war. But, on the same hand, she IS active on her board, which is why I feel she should have stepped in and calmed things. She had the power to do exactly that, since, as one member said, when JRW says she likes Tito Ortiz (for example) of the UFC, suddenly her members are fans of his as well. That shows me she has influence there and she chooses to remain silent as many of her members are intimidated and bullied by her MOD’s and by her more rabid fans.
Thank you again! Your opinion is much appreciated.
I like how Tyler refers to buttnoidyess coming from La Nora as eloquent 😉
So what’s a Cellie?
Do you think it’s worth hiring rabid fan girls to get some buzz? (heh. my verification word is “plant84”)
P.S. I’d put in yet another “yah, don’t you mess with my bitches,” but the bitches don’t need no steenkin hired guns. They are the pros. If I want someone torn a new one, I’d hire Candy or Sarah to do the job. (In fact I have begged Candy and she came charging over the hill like the US Cavalry she is.)
Yeah, what is a Cellie? And what, for that matter, is ADWOFF? (Jesus, I can no way keep up with all this MB telegraphy—ROFLMAOTSETUNG.)
Hmm, I forgot what the AD stands for, but the rest is
With
Out
French
Fries
I think.
La Nora rocks, yes?
As for people who are buttnoids online, this is my favorite reference. Sometimes the funniest part is how predictable these assholes are.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/
A Day With Out French Fries.
Ah, thanks Other Stef who is a Mistress. I admit, it was bugging me that I couldn’t remember.
Speaking of french fries….
Well, since my blog got linked, I guess I’ll clarify a bit.
Cellie’s aside, I’m thinking as much about her mods on that board.
The reason why I think the author should take some responsibility in this mess, is because the board exists on her “offical” and, I’m assuming, authorized website. It’s not fan owned.
I get she’s busy but, since someone mentioned Rowling, I doubt even she would be so busy as to not reign it in somehow.
Simply because it’s bad PR.
Her silence says she’s ok with her mods speaking for her. That mean’s they’re representing her.
Yes some would say there is no such thing as “bad” pr, but if someone is misrepresenting me, it’s not just bad pr- it’s bad business and said representers should be told to calm it down.
That’s all.
Oh and I stand by assertion that an author bb is simply a bad idea … blog? not so much. BB? RUN AWAY!
hey i’ll give Ward the bennie- maybe she DID talk to her mods?
I don’t visit the board, but I’ll be interested in knowing whether it calms down any …
but what about the meaning of a CELLIE?
Don’t make me go all ballistic on your asses, people.
A “cellie” is a self-tagged name for a member of J R Ward’s bb.
She’s the WARDen and they are her Cellies.
*cough*
So the Cellies are zellies….