AQuick-n-DirtyPrimeronPlagiarism,CopyrightandFairUse,andCitationsinaFictionalWork

by Candy Monday, January 21, 2008 at 12:50 AM

There’s been a lot of talk lately about the difference between plagiarism and copyright infringement, the issue of fair use, and what authors should and shouldn’t do when it comes to citing research in their works of fiction. A lot of bad information is being passed around, and a lot of conflation (TAKE A DRINK, BITCHES) between plagiarism and copyright infringement; there also seem to be mild panic outbreaks among some authors who appear to think we readers are going to stab at them with our Pitchforks of Plagiarism +5 if they don’t include detailed citations in their books.

As a petty pedant, the former drives me nuts; as a reader who is capable of utilizing common sense, the latter makes me shake my head with mild exasperation. And as you regulars already know, pedantry + exasperation = me blather long time. The first part of this article is going to be a detailed, largely fact-based discussion about definitions. The second is going to be what I, as a Reader of Moderately-Sized Brain, want to see from an author in terms of acceptable usage without acknowledgement, and acceptable usage with acknowledgement; that part is pretty much purely opinion-based.

Copyright Cake vs. Plagiarism Pie (and how to wield the Fair Use Fork)

As I’ve noted previously on this blog, copyright infringement and plagiarism are different beasts, though they occasionally interbreed and give birth to that Liger of the intellectual property universe: a copyright infringement case that actually involves plagiarism. Here are the key differences again, in more detail:

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Categories: But...that's not really about romance novelsCassie Edwards

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Comments

Picture of FrancisT FrancisT said on...
01.21.08 at 01:29 AM |

So I guess I’m a nerd / geek / whatever because I think that it is cool to have an afterword where you list the sources of things like the song lyrics quoted as well as any major sources of research. A great example is Auel’s Clan of the Cave Bear and sequels where she has a long chapter on the paleontology she uses as research.

(Sidenote: whether you attribute them or not, failing to get permission from the copyright owner to quote song lyrics is a copyright infringement and can get you into big trouble. You can work around not getting permission and anyway usually permission is granted gratis because its good publicity but you need to ask and receive and save the response.)

Picture of Candy said on...
01.21.08 at 02:52 AM |

Quoting portions of song lyrics without permission: are you sure they don’t fall under fair use? Seems to me they’d meet the balancing test. Are there any court cases that hold that they infringe on copyright? And if they were, Christ, think of the nightmare of enforcing this--all the Livejournal entries, Myspace profiles, lyrics websites, etc.

Picture of Naomi Libicki Naomi Libicki said on...
01.21.08 at 03:55 AM |

Another important distinction that people lose sight of is that while you can hold a copyright on fictional people, places, etc.—so writing a story about Harry Potter or Hogwarts would constitute copyright infringement—you can’t hold a copyright on real people, places, etc.—so writing a story about Frederick the Great would not constitute copyright infringement, even if you got all your information from Robert Asprey’s biography (direct quotes without attribution are still out.)

This is not because J.K. Rowling worked harder on creating Harry Potter than Robert Asprey did on researching Frederick the Great, but because it would be impossible to study history if you had to get permission from the copyright holder every time you wanted to write a paper on Elizabeth II.  For example.

What this means is, you can’t hold a copyright on facts, even if you made them up yourself.  See also Holy Blood, Holy Grail.

Picture of AgTigress said on...
01.21.08 at 04:07 AM |

I think that is a very useful summary.

The complexity of copyright law is well beyond the capacity of most non-lawyers to grasp, especially the matters of international law, and of copyright issues relating to photographs and other images, but no author needs to have a full, technical personal knowledge of these things.  She need only have a general awareness, so that if there is an area that seems uncertain to her, she can ask her publisher to get it checked on.  I did this myself recently – ‘how many words of this poem do you think I might quote without incurring copyright fees?’ My publishers seem comfortable with a single descriptive phrase from the poem (appropriately acknowledged, of course), but I shall leave it to them, and cut it out completely if there is any doubt.

On the plagiarism question, as in so many matters of morality, the easiest and most reliable test for anyone to apply is to put herself in the other person’s shoes.  I have a fairly strong sense of how many of my words, of what kind, and in what context, I should be willing to see quoted verbatim without acknowledgment.  If it is something you would not like to have done to you, then don’t do it to someone else.  That may sound vague, but it is a pretty reliable guide.

Picture of Nora Roberts said on...
01.21.08 at 04:11 AM |

Thanks, Candy, for spelling it all out.

Picture of S Andrew Swann S Andrew Swann said on...
01.21.08 at 05:09 AM |

Re: Song Lyrics

IANAL but, fair use for song lyrics requires a much smaller snippet than, say, even a short story.  This is because the “fairness” of the use is based on how large the quote is in relation to the original work, and according to my editor, how prominent the use is in the quoting work.  So, when I quote a line from a NIN song in the middle of a chapter where a couple of characters, that’s fair use, wheras if I used the same material as a header for a chapter, it may not be.

RE: Harry Potter
The copyright Rowlings has isn’t on the characters or setting per se.  (AFAIK you can’t copyright individual fictional elements in isolation.) The copyright she has is on “adaptations” of the original work, which would include movies, graphic novels, t-shirts, action figures, and written sequels.  The latter gets kind of blurry. . .

Picture of Charlene said on...
01.21.08 at 05:14 AM |

Think of all the Romeo and Juliet knock-offs that exist without bothering to acknowledge Shakespeare.

One of the reasons for that, though, is that Shakespeare didn’t originate the story of Romeo and Juliet - it was an Italian folk tale.

Picture of Nora Roberts said on...
01.21.08 at 05:38 AM |

~wheras if I used the same material as a header for a chapter, it may not be.~

Exactly. I wanted to use a portion of The Beatles’ Magic Mystery Tour as the header for Part One of Honest Illusions. And boy-howdy they wanted a whole buncha money for those two lines.

So I went back to good old Will and used a quote from The Tempest.

Picture of Dawn Montgomery Dawn Montgomery said on...
01.21.08 at 05:46 AM |

I’ll agree with Francis T.  I’m an old school geek, give me acknowledgments in the back of the book. I’d love to know where you got your information so I can read more on it if I’m interested. 

I’ve been lurking on this entire incident...and some of the craziness that has come out of the woodwork, wow.  Thank you for clarifying copyright and plagiarism. I think Jane and I had discussed it on one of your comments sections months ago.  This cleared it up. 

Just a side note on song lyrics…

From Music Publishing: The Read Road to Music Business Success

“Permission to reprint lyrics are most often granted individually on a _per use, nonexclusive basis_” Under the section BOOKS it states: “Book publishers often seek reprint licenses to use lyrics in...novels, short story collections, etc.  Fees can range from $50 to several thousand dollars, depending upon the number of works included in the book...” It goes on to explain, in detail, when larger fees are warranted. (such as lyrics futhuring a novel’s plot, the book title is derived from the song’s title, etc.)

Here’s the info…

Tha Goods

Now back to lurkdom.

Picture of Darlene Marshall Darlene Marshall said on...
01.21.08 at 05:51 AM |

Very nice, Candy. 

Are you going to be required to write a senior thesis in law school? I’d love to see it. It would be an interesting conflation (Dang!  I love that word too!) of legalese and Smart Bitch style.

Picture of Elena Greene Elena Greene said on...
01.21.08 at 05:53 AM |

First, apologies if anything in this comment doesn’t make sense--I’m dealing with feverish kids and sleep deprivation here!

Anyway, great post.  Educating everyone on these issues is one of the best things that can come out of the recent kerfuffle.

there also seem to be mild panic outbreaks among some authors who appear to think we readers are going to stab at them with our Pitchforks of Plagiarism +5 if they don’t include detailed citations in their books

Well, I don’t know if I’m one of the ones you think may be panicking, but I did blog about this issue last Wednesday at the Risky Regencies.  I never thought the SBs themselves were saying this should become standard but a few commenters here and elsewhere have come close to saying “if Susan Johnson does it, why can’t everyone?” Not that I’m really paranoid about that but it did make me think they were missing the point.

As I understand it, Susan Johnson uses footnotes to add or clarify historical background, not to attribute passages copied from elsewhere.  I think it’s a stylistic thing she’s made work for her but not something that would work for most authors.

Anyway, I’m just curious as to how readers would really like to see resources credited.  I was happy to learn that there are more History Geeks out there like me who adore a good Author’s Note.

Picture of Teddy Pig Teddy Pig said on...
01.21.08 at 05:53 AM |
Picture of Dawn Montgomery Dawn Montgomery said on...
01.21.08 at 05:55 AM |

As a side note...digital usage of song lyrics goes through a whole different ball of wax.  Gracenote ties up online digital usage of song lyrics (webpages, etc.) Ebooks are a gray area if they never get to print.  Rest assured, if you’re interested in “keeping the peace,” it would be best to get one or the other.

Picture of Nora Roberts said on...
01.21.08 at 06:19 AM |

I’ve never done an Author’s Note or Acknowledgement page.

I can’t recall every relying heavily on one source. I generally use bunches--and wouldn’t know where I got what from what.

I’m starting a quartet of books centering on the wedding business. Already I have PILES on my desk. Books on wedding cakes, flowers, photography, planning--reams from the internet on same. On bridal dresses, wedding themes, styles, trends. Magazine articles. As my son’s getting married this summer, I had a meeting with my future dil and the florist. I’m talking to her. I’m talking to my dh who does photography as a VERY serious hobby. I’m listening to my dil’s wants, wishes, ideas, questions--and will likely use some of those.

So I’m not going to write an Acknowledge page addressing all this.

I do like, and always read, Author’s Notes and Acknowledgements though.

Picture of Carrie Lofty Carrie Lofty said on...
01.21.08 at 06:20 AM |

so writing a story about Frederick the Great would not constitute copyright infringement

Ah, but then you can skate near other tricky legal gray areas like libel and defamation. (I don’t do the technical bits. Talk to Jane.)

If I were to write a story about Frederick the Great that said he molested little children using a lead pipe and grease, his descendents could legal bitchslap me and my publisher. I’m basing a current villain on a very nasty but enigmatic dude who lived in the 13th century. No one can say with certainty whether he did some of the things I’m writing that he did, but he was connected to the Spanish royal family--and royal families are particularly UNkeen on bad press, even 700 years later. I’ve changed names and certain details so I can make him as nasty as he wanna be. But you can bet I’ll be writing an afterward about the changes I made, either to be included in the print edition or as a segment on my website. With source citations.

Picture of Jules Jones Jules Jones said on...
01.21.08 at 06:22 AM |

Excellent post, Candy, thank you.

Putting a lab coat on over my chiffon frock (I believe a chiffon frock is what all romance authors wear, yes?), I’ll say that my personal view of someone using my non-fiction publications matches what Candy’s said.

Want to use it as background material that informs your own words, good-o—a bibliographic note at the end would be nice, but it’s not vital.

Want to copy my vibrant scientific prose word for word—I will be Displeased if there is no citation, and it’s quite possible that whoever paid me to write it will be Displeased also. And besides, you really don’t want to copy-n-paste it into a romance novel as dialogue, even one with a scientist hero. I don’t speak like that, even if I write like that when I’m doing the passive voice past tense thingie.

Spaminator: money27—how very appropriate.

Picture of Sara said on...
01.21.08 at 06:26 AM |

Interesting points, Carrie Lofty. However, I don’t think you have to be worried about libel, because you cannot libel the dead.

Wonderful summary, Smart Bitches!

Picture of Sarabeth Sarabeth said on...
01.21.08 at 06:26 AM |

I always enjoy reading the Author’s Notes and Acknoledgements. Being a wanna-be romance writer, I like to see where an author got her inspiration or major amount of information. Although, I can see in Nora’s case above, how would it be possible to list everything? I certainly don’t expect it.

Picture of Lisa Lisa said on...
01.21.08 at 06:40 AM |

Carrie Lofty:  As someone else pointed out, you can’t slander/libel the dead. There might be an exception to this if you caused financial harm to the deceased person’s heirs in some way, for instance by stating something nefarious about a dead author which caused the sales of their in-print works to tank.  An actual lawyer would know better than I do about that.

Still, it’s not a bad idea to think carefully about what you do with historical personalities.  I’m finishing an MS in which certain characters are based on real-life people (who lived and died in the seventeenth century).  One is a minor villain in this story, and though he is long dead, I’ve changed his name and certain key details.  Because I’ve assigned nasty fictional events to this person I decided to do this because this person has living descendants (some of whom actually still live around here). I don’t have to do this, they can’t sue me but on balance, there’s no reason to use a real name if it might bother someone still walking this earth.

Picture of Carrie Lofty Carrie Lofty said on...
01.21.08 at 06:52 AM |

Lisa & Sara: Good to know I can’t be sued--I’ve since looked it up and read that you can only be sued if a living person actually knew the deceased--but it just felt wrong to ascribe villainous traits to a person who once lived. I wouldn’t think anything of portraying someone well, but in this instance I know I’m fictionalizing to this individual’s detriment. Hence the name change. And because this is an historical romance, I’ll be sorting out the fact-from-fiction in an afterward. I wouldn’t want people to come away from it without access to the facts.

Picture of Diana Castilleja Diana Castilleja said on...
01.21.08 at 06:54 AM |

I think the summary is a great starting point for those who don’t understand it, not enough to make anyone groan, writer or reader, but very enlightening.

When I use points from a book, it’s just been more natural for me to write it in my words, so it sounds like the character.

Acknowledgements are nice. I like seeing where an author may have gotten their information, but it’s not necessary for me. I do think it’s neat to see the attributions given lines or quotes, like at the start of chapters.

Picture of Angelina said on...
01.21.08 at 06:59 AM |

When dealing with the deceased, I believe it would be deemed defamation rather than libel(memories trying to resurface). Most states do not allow defamation suits on behalf of the deceased by the estate.

However with today’s increasingly litiginous society and judges legislating from the bench - hell, anything’s possible with the right judge & jury. Always best to CYA.

Picture of Katie Dickson Katie Dickson said on...
01.21.08 at 07:27 AM |

Very well written, Candy. I am endlessly excited by your use of metaphor.

And of phrases like “cut a bitch.” I am going to practice.

Picture of Jane O said on...
01.21.08 at 07:33 AM |

Plagiarism is theft. It is stealing someone else’s words or ideas and passing them off as your own. Back when I was in school (about the same time Cassie Edwards was), any sort of intellectual dishonesty like plagiarism or cheating was one of the worst crimes you could commit - far worse than something like bank robbery.
If things have changed, it’s not a change for the better.

Picture of Maya Maya said on...
01.21.08 at 08:28 AM |

OK, here’s a grey area for you - one of my character’s is a history grad student, and in one chapter she marks first-year student papers. I’m planning to include a half-dozen or so examples of that student writing, involving how historical facts can be misunderstood, with very funny results.  This idea came from a book with hundreds of real-life examples of hilarious student misinterpretation gems, collected by real-life profs at many universities.

Even though I’m changing words around and won’t be quoting word for word, I’m going to acknowledge this book as source for the idea.

Here’s the dilemma: even though I normally would err on the side of citing author, title, year published, etc. too much, in this case, it really brings out the contrary in me at the thought of writing to the publisher/person who compiled all those quotes to get permission because I CANNOT BELIEVE HE HIMSELF GOT PERMISSION FROM THOSEDOZENS OF STUDENTS TO NOT ONLY QUOTE THEIR WORK BUT MAKE MONEY FROM IT.

You see my dilemma?  Simply mention the book in an acknowledgement, or actually seek written permission?

What say you, o wise ones?

Picture of jocelynnesimone said on...
01.21.08 at 08:34 AM |

Yeah, I definitely have different desires for fiction versus non-fiction when it comes to citation etc etc.  When it comes to fiction, provided the author is not lifting/quoting chunks for research material verbatim, I don’t particularly want any sort of foot/end note.  (Although some footnotes can sure be entertaining a le Pratchet)

Ms. Roberts if I may respond to your last comment directly (and I promise not to be too much of a fan girl), you do what I consider to be one of the best methods of using research for your fiction.  It’s clear that research informs some of your works because your characters are well versed in the facts and techniques of their jobs but it is never a pedantic, out of character “oh look at all this research I did and will now quote back to you” moment. 

In other words, if an author starts writing about a professional lyric soprano, I’m not looking for attribution to books on technique each time she does runs.  When the facts and background of a profession, lifestyle, hobby, language, mode of dress inform a work of fiction but are synthasized by the author, I don’t need citation although I might enjoy that author’s afterward so I can geek out on the sources myself.  As has been noted, facts cannot be copyrighted.

And it’s certainly not plagiarism to learn all about some subject from different sources and then let that knowledge bleed into character and plot development.  As we all know, chapter and verse by now, teh ebil copying of whole phrases, sentences and paragraphs word for word is when the nasty plagiarism bunnies attack.  (And when ferrets weep.)

Picture of JaneyD JaneyD said on...
01.21.08 at 09:38 AM |

I had some short stories to edit, and several had song lyrics under the titles.

I first noticed this habit with writers of fan fiction. Copyright issues are largely ignored in fan fiction, and I informed the (still wet behind the ears) writers that the rules were different in the pro writing world.

Soon as I mentioned they’d have to get written permission from the lyric copyright holders--and probably pay a chunk of change that would be more than their check for the story--they all deleted the whole issue.

One of my friends put together a promotional book video to a song by a favorite group. She had the group’s written and enthusiastic permission to use it, but the recording company Suits threw a hissy fit and said no.

Sometimes you CAN get permission from the copyright owner, but please be on the lookout for uber-anal Suits with their hands out for cash.

Just to be clear on this, it IS the writer’s job to get those permissions, not mine.

Picture of Lijakaca Lijakaca said on...
01.21.08 at 09:41 AM |

For fiction, I like Author’s Notes, it’s enough to share what the author found really useful or interesting when she/he was researching, and if I don’t really care I can skip it.  It also provides space to separate facts from the made-up bits - especially in historical novels or novels where a major event ‘sounds’ like it was real (a court case, political events, etc.). I want to know how much is real and how much isn’t.

Picture of azteclady azteclady said on...
01.21.08 at 09:53 AM |

jocelynnesimone said a lot of what I wanted to say, but I’ll elaborate on something (a shock, I know).

A lot of what appears in a work of fiction--particularly contemporary works--can be quite easily gleaned by the reader just by looking around, watching the idjit box, browsing the intrawebs. On those things, I frankly think it would be overkill to have an afterword saying, (using Ms Roberts’s example), “I used this book and that website to learn about current wedding planning/dresses/invitations/whatever.”

However, like Lijakaca says, I love it when reading something that can not be so easily learned--history particularly--and finding a short note by the author directing to either his/her resources, or further reading for those who are so inclined. And I enjoy immensely author websites with links to online resources and/or books they have used/enjoyed while doing specific research for their own books.

Picture of azteclady azteclady said on...
01.21.08 at 09:55 AM |

“something that can not be” *head desk*

*sob*

*ahem*

That should say something like, “something more difficult to learn” or similar.

*back to hiding under my “can you tell I’m not a writer?” rock*

Picture of R. R. said on...
01.21.08 at 11:53 AM |

Thanks for the summary, Candy --

Though I plan to include bibliographies of my reference sources [’cause that’s the kind of nerd I am], a rule I’ve always used for my own writing is simply this:
Never let the research show.

Kinda like stage magicians never letting the audience see how the ‘magic’ works—once exposed, the carefully crafted tricks *pop* and evaporate like soap bubbles, leaving the audience feeling cheated:  “Well, if I can see how it works, how can it possibly be magic?”

Picture of Candy said on...
01.21.08 at 12:00 PM |

Thanks for the education regarding song lyrics, bitches. This is definitely one of the instances in which I think copyright law can/should be modified--a book doesn’t have an actual performance of the song, it doesn’t harm the market value of the work, and while quoting two lines from a 30-line song is a much more significant proportion than, say, a 380-page book, I honestly fail to see the big deal if the lines are chapter headings; enforcing (sometimes exorbitant) fees in these sorts of circumstances have the sort of chilling effect on creativity and cultural discourse that I DON’T want to see as a result of copyright law. (There might be an argument for some sort of rights tussle if you write a story closely based on a song’s lyrics, though.) But perhaps this is due to the fact that I’m not a songwriter? Hmmm! Very gray ethical area here, even if the legal issues are a bit more clear-cut.

And Charlene: true, Shakespeare cribbed his story from something else, but who remembers that? If I write a tragic story about young star-crossed lovers who fall in love despite their feuding families, nobody’s going to say “Oh, look, she based it on Romeus and Juliet as translated by Arthur Brooke!”

Darlene: I will be writing two theses for law school. I highly doubt my profs will let me use “suck it, bitches” in any portion of my work, which is too bad.

Picture of SonomaLass said on...
01.21.08 at 12:25 PM |

Great post, Candy, and some nice insightful responses.

As a college teacher, I deal with “the big P” (that’s plagiarism, fellow bitches, not the other one) from my students a lot. Sometimes people really do want to make themselves look better by claiming the work or ideas of others, as Wikipedia notes.  More often with my students, it is a combination of laziness and ignorance that leads to plagiarism—can’t be bothered to put ideas into their own words, use only one source for their research, don’t know how to do graceful notation, et cetera.

While I’d agree the rules for fiction are different, as a reader I am still concerned with fairness.  As someone noted above, it’s the golden rule in operation—if it would bother YOU to see your work so used, then don’t do it. Mostly I prefer to see attribution for direct quotes, especially as headers.  Sometimes a quote intrigues me, or seems familiar, but I can’t identify the course, and I head off to Google to find it.  I’d rather just have it there on the page.  Whereas if the quote is used by a character, the context of the fictional situation should, I think, determine whether or how it is attributed.  (Although if it isn’t, I still appreciate a line in an author’s note to the effect of “the poem quoted by Larry in chapter 7 is by so-and-so and can be found here.")

On research, it seems to me that Nora is right about the kind of research she does.  (Eeek!  I called Nora Roberts by her first name!!!) If you read a lot about a subject, and don’t take any unique or specific ideas from any one source, attribution seems unnecessary.  BUT if you are researching an obscure subject, in which there are few resources, or if one particular source really influenced your thinking, I think that deserves an acknowledgment.  I feel strongly about this especially when the influential source is in a minority opinion about a topic.  People who take unique stands deserve credit, and readers who want to follow up or learn more appreciate the help.

Of course I’m a geeky academic.  I love reading what influenced an author, particularly for a book that has taken a lot of research.  My fave example here (and many other places) would be Guy Gavriel Kay.

Oh, and LMAO @ “Pitchforks of Plagiarism +5.” Where can I get one?????

Picture of Janet McConnaughey Janet McConnaughey said on...
01.21.08 at 12:49 PM |

A true story about songs and copyright.

The late George Alec Effinger
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/e/george-alec-effinger/
asked permission to use two lines from Bob Dylan’s “Just Like Tom Thumb’s Blues” as the epigraph for “When Gravity Fails,” which derived its title from the song.  It was given, free.

George’s second book about Marid Audran was “A Fire in the Sun,” titled from Dylan’s “It’s All Over Now, Baby Blue”.  This time, Dylan or his Suits wanted $1,500.  That was about the size of George’s advance, so he had to drop the epigraph.  Titles not being subject to copyright, he kept the title.

Picture of Kassiana said on...
01.21.08 at 12:49 PM |

Copyright can be very tricky, because the original artist is not the only one you need to seek permission from, often. I think NPR’s On The Media did a segment once with a documentary filmmaker who had to pay a hugely ridiculous amount of money ($5000?) for a thirty-second ringtone in her movie. She’d gotten permission from the original artist who created the tune, the recording company (maybe under a blanket license from ASCAP or BMI, I forget), but had not gotten permission from the PHONE company to use the ringtone.

As my law professors loved to say, copyright gives you a bundle of rights. You can give away some, to your publisher/distributor, and still have some rights left.

**Note: I’m not a lawyer, never have been, graduated from law school in 1998 so if the laws have changed significantly since then, don’t hold me responsible.**

Picture of Bonnie C said on...
01.21.08 at 12:50 PM |

Candy - as always, brilliant. I also have doubts as to your profs’ approval of “suck it, bitches”. LOL!

I snorted Coca Cola out my nose when I read the line “ Pitchforks of Plagiarism +5” and it made me think fondly of the often wished for “+12 Bag of Holding” when xmas shopping.

Onto the seriousness of this issue. Laws aside I believe that this issue hits hard on a moral level and that is a huge part of bringing the crazies out of the woodwork. I would absolutely hate to see my ACTUAL words - fictional or non - used in a way that makes money for SOMEONE ELSE without some kind of props to my mad genius (of course made genius – why else would they be stealing my goods?). On the reverse side, I wouldn’t want to knowingly do the same to someone else. As someone said above (and much more eloquently) - do unto others…

As a reader I always like the acknowledgements section: “Thanks to Steve at the LAPD for letting me ride along to my very first Eastside riot” or “Thank you Susie for sitting with me over endless cuppas to give me a better handle on the mating habits of the blue footed boobie bird”. It gives me warm fuzzies to know that an author went that extra mile to get her setting *right*. Also as a reader I love when passages at the heads of chapters cite the source (lyrical, poetical, or otherwise) because if it grabs me in a particular way then I have a reference from which to hunt that source.

In Nora’s example above (first name basis is scary, but we’re all friends here, right??) I don’t think the same necessarily holds true. There are events in life that we all have been involved in to one extent or another (babies, graduations, weddings, divorces, funerals all right up there at the top) that it would be useless to cite specific sources because where to start and stop? That is up to the individual author and their own honor system.

In the end, personally and professionally, I believe that to use verbatim source material without acknowledgement is wrong. It doesn’t matter who did it or why, it’s just wrong. If it’s done, it needs to be owned up to – “I’m sorry. I made a mistake. I will make every effort to not repeat that mistake.” That covers a lot of ground in my world.

Picture of Silver James Silver James said on...
01.21.08 at 04:32 PM |

Dang, ya’ll. Talk about a down and dirty education. I see some major revisions to the MS I’m currently working on as one of my characters sings along with the radio and I quote a certain classic rock song, with mention of the group. *whine*

I suppose I’ll have to become the investigator my character is to track down the contact information just to see if I can, perchance, get permission.

As to acknowlegements, I admit I’m nerdy enough, too, to want to follow up sometimes on less mundane research so I like having more info at the end of the book. As Nora cited above, normal info doesn’t need to be cited as far as I’m concerned.

Thanks for the interesting and on-going discussion, bitches...and Andrew and Nora, too. (Hey, where I come from, everybody’s on a first name basis.)

Picture of Soni Soni said on...
01.21.08 at 08:27 PM |

Re: song lyrics, I have what I think is truly a stumper, here…

As I can see (and knew, prior), you can’t just quote song lyrics willy-nilly without securing rights from everyone and his Uncle Willy.

However, I’m editing some stories for a client who is a tv news camera guy, and he quotes lyrics in one piece about covering the Clay Aiken phenomenon during American Idol. So far, so bad, but…

He’s quoting lyrics he directly heard the Clayster singing in person, so the quotes aren’t just lyrics, they’re overheard speech, which seems like it should be fair game to quote, since my writer client didn’t just snag them off of the liner notes, but rather is actually describing the scene and quoting what he heard first hand.

Gah. I have no idea how this plays out. Any lawyers here want to give me the skinny on whether quoting something you heard sung as part of a first-hand description of a happening is fair or foul play?

I mean, obviously, said writer can legitimately quote anything said star *said* during the press conference, so why wouldn’t he be able to quote what was then sung (to a thoroughly gobsmacked and unwarned Rotunda full of middle-schoolers on field trips, no less) during that same event?

Picture of Bev Stephans said on...
01.21.08 at 08:27 PM |

I just finished reading Nora Roberts’ “High Noon”.  I enjoyed the book and liked the way she layered the story.  My question is, why is there no ‘permission to use’ or Copyright acknowledgement?  Just wondering.

Picture of Candy said on...
01.21.08 at 08:49 PM |

Soni: am not a lawyer, therefore my advice bla bla bla holy mother of god is it ever not actual legal advice etc etc etc, but your situation sounds like a decent candidate for fair use--it’s commentary/news reporting, it’s about a public interest figure, you’re quoting only a snippet, you’re probably not affecting the market.

Picture of azteclady azteclady said on...
01.21.08 at 08:57 PM |

Bev Stephens, acknowledgment or permission to use… what?

Picture of Bev Stephans said on...
01.21.08 at 10:42 PM |

AztecLady:

At the beginning of each new section of the book were lines from the song “High Noon” (or ‘Do Not Forsake Me’).  I assumed that the song was still under copyright and permission had to be sought to use the lines. I’m not criticizing, just wondering.

Picture of Jules Jones Jules Jones said on...
01.22.08 at 12:16 AM |

The advice I’ve always been given by older and wiser writers is don’t use lines from real songs, as it’s often just too much hassle and expense to get the relevant permissions. And don’t assume that a song’s public domain and thus safe to use, because there are songs that are quite thoroughly in copyright even though people commonly think of them as public domain (the example I usually see quoted is Happy Birthday).

If you need to use songs because it’s right to have a song at some point, make one up in the right style. Writers have actually done this. And if you have to use a particular song, because it fits so perfectly with your story, and the story just wouldn’t be the same without the emotional resonances that song holds for you—remember that other people may have a different emotional response to the song, or not know it at all. If your story simply won’t work at all without the song, it’s not going to work for those readers.

If a song would enhance the book without making it inaccessible to someone not familiar with the song, then it’s always worth trying to get permission. A lot of songwriters are happy to let something be used for a nominal fee or even for nothing, so long as they get acknowledgement. But it’s a bad idea to build the song into the book before getting that permission.

Picture of azteclady azteclady said on...
01.22.08 at 03:56 AM |

I guess I’m proof of what Jules Jones just said about different emotional responses, Bev Stephens. I am not familiar with the song, so it didn’t register.

Picture of Robin said on...
01.22.08 at 04:40 AM |

It’s all a witch hunt, I tell you, a WITCH HUNT!

Sorry—just wanted to see what it felt like from the other side.

re. copyright v. plagiarism, at one level it’s as simple as permission (could I please use . . . ) v. acknowledgment (look what I used . . . ) and at another level there’s a whole world of pain and minute differentiations in determining copyright infringement (i.e. the Fair Use exception and stuff like song lyrics).  Although I did crack up (in a totally insane I can’t believe this is happening sort of way) when Signet initially tried to pull out the “fair use” language as a shield against plagiarism. 

As for acknowledgment of “allusions” in “a limited context,” I would ask this question by way of definition: did what and how Ian McEwan used Lucilla Andrews’s wartime memoir in Atonement constitute an allusion and/or in limited context?  Because he did provide an author’s acknowledgment, even before he was accused of the big P.  Also, how does the status of the text alluded to play into things—esp. if it’s particularly obscure or depending on whether or not it’s used verbatim or in close paraphrase?  And how limited is limited?

Picture of Nora Roberts said on...
01.22.08 at 04:53 AM |

The High Noon thing. My memory on this is a little fuzzy, but I did some research on how much could be used and qualify as fair use throughout the course of the book. And the publisher checked and deemed the amount of song used throughout the body of the book was okay.

There are attributions on the headers.

I know, at the time, I read up on fair use, etc. But I haven’t retained all the language and the particulars.

It’s a reasonable question, Bev.

Picture of Robin said on...
01.22.08 at 04:54 AM |

Theresa Weir started every chapter in Cool Shade with snippets of lyrics from various songs without citing the song title or artist, for example, and I thought that was perfectly acceptable.

Bypassing all the copyright issues or potential copyright issues here, I think this is where the “passing off as one’s own work” part of the plagiarism concept is helpful. IMO, if your use of an allusion, concept, character, plot, text, whatever, might reasonably be seen as you passing off another’s work as your own, an author’s note is a reasonable and polite way to acknowledge the use of a source without the hassle of actual foot/endnotes or passage-specific citation.

Picture of writtenwyrdd writtenwyrdd said on...
01.22.08 at 07:46 AM |

Great post!  Thank you for clarifying this issue.

Picture of Poison Ivy Poison Ivy said on...
01.22.08 at 11:27 AM |

Please, please, please don’t write your own songs in your stories. You have no idea how dead they sound as mere words on the page without actual music to sustain them. As an editor, it makes me want to hold my head and weep when I see these things.

Picture of Jana Oliver Jana Oliver said on...
01.23.08 at 07:10 AM |

What’s wrong with adding the occasional footnote or comment in the back of the book as to the source of your info?

The Whitechapel Horrors by Edward B. Hanna (a Sherlock Holmes/Jack the Ripper novel) uses footnotes. They actually ADD to the story. If you don’t want to read the extra info, you ignore them.

Picture of Candy said on...
01.23.08 at 07:05 PM |

Robin: I would argue that what McEwan did constituted more than mere allusion. He took the facts of Andrews’ life and wove them into his fiction. What muddies the water, for me, is the fact that he did acknowledge her. He should’ve given her more credit than he did, perhaps, and been clearer about the extent to which Atonement owed a debt to Andrews, but at least he thanked her by name.

When I say allusion, I’m thinking of brief quotes or riffs on quotes, usually of famous material. Things like “In the blogs the women come and go, talking about the Fabio,” or “Smithers, massage my brain!” or “So, Peter, about those TPS report covers...” And when I mentioned limited contexts, I think I do mean extremely limited contexts. Things like chapter headings, or characters in the course of conversation, or a first-person narrator.

I like your balancing test, actually: can it be mistaken as your own work by a reasonably educated, well-informed person? If it can, best be safe and have a little afterword acknowledging the influences and research sources.

Picture of Gail Dayton Gail Dayton said on...
01.25.08 at 04:19 PM |

This whole flip-flap made me go back through my WiP to check whether I’d inadvertently done some word-for-word playbacks. There are some things it’s just difficult to describe multiple ways. As in--somebody got thrown down a flight of stairs. I suppose you could substitute shoved for thrown, or something similar, but some of those things are tough to change. Still, that’s only a few words. Most instances of plagiarism go far beyond that.

I have a tendency to read something, remember it weeks (or months or years) later, stick it in a story, and then have to go hunt down the book I read it in, or some other corroborating source to double-check that I remembered it correctly. Lately, I’ve been double-checking that I put things in my own words, just in case…

Picture of Anya said on...
01.28.08 at 07:41 PM |

I remember reading Silver Flame by Susan Johnson when I was sick over my winter break and being surprised to see footnotes (well, not really footnotes since they weren’t at the bottom of the page but instead in something quite like an appendix (I think it was something like that, I’m not really sure since I wasn’t quite at the top of my game when I read the book).  Anyway, I was surprised - pleasantly - by the notes because it was interesting to read the historical background to things that the author had referred to, etc., etc., etc.

Picture of Jana Oliver Jana Oliver said on...
01.29.08 at 05:02 AM |

I love citations in the back of a book. It’s like the expanded DVD version where you get to see the (historical) references, what the author was thinking as the book was created, etc. Some authors aren’t comfortable with breaking that fourth wall, but I find it adds another layer to the story.

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