Categories: Random Musings • The Link-O-Lator
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by SB Sarah • Sunday, September 24, 2006 at 03:12 PM
A few Bitchery readers have sent me a veritable buffet of links regarding a recent J.R. Ward fluff online at her author-hosted bulletin boards. Seems a reader went to Ward’s BB community, and posted her opinion about Ward’s series, specifically about the slang used by some characters, and the gay undertones in some of the scenes, and asked if anyone noticed the same things she noted.
I can’t link to the thread in question as it’s for members only. But from my understanding, the writer of the original post was blasted online by “rabid fangirls” of Ward’s community, and ultimately ended up banned from the boards. Since I can’t directly read the thread or witness the alleged harshness that greeted this reader’s questions, I have rely on what others have said.
What strikes me as curious is that a few bloggers hold Ward responsible for the behavior of the fans on her site. DishingDiva states that the boards are hosted and moderated by Ward and thus the attacks and banning were condoned as she must have been aware that they were happening.
Now, we here at SBTB, we are big fans of authors behaving in entertaining fashion, and we are more than aware that there are some people out there on the wild, wild internet that take their reading very, very seriously. But is an author responsible for the allegedly buttheaded behavior of their readership?
I pose the same question to myself - if we were (un)fortunate to attract a troll, would it be my responsibility to ban and delete that user’s posts until they signed up again under a different user name from a different IP? Looking at it from a “person who hosts the discussion” perspective, I’d have to say that I’m not entirely responsible for what other people say. If someone signed up for membership and started posting after every review how much Candy and I suck and how we’re absolutely horrible people to be so mean to those nice romance writers like Cassie Edwards, it’d be annoying but I’d probably let it stand, since hey, that’s their opinion and they’re welcome to it, even on our site.
In fact, I’d lose credibility if I started deleting the posts I disagreed with, or banning users who caused trouble on the site. I’m not saying I love the squabbles just for their own sake, but no one here has disgreed by name calling or demanding that they be banned from the register of Bitches. If that’s what happened on Ward’s site, if she deleted the original poster because she didn’t want gay undertones discussed on the site, well, it’s her prerogative to edit her boards however she wants, though I’d disagree heartily with that decision.
I also know the community here is pretty intelligent and enjoys a good discussion, even a heated one from multiple points of view, and would probably ignore a troll until it went away. Or at least have some delicious fun at its expense. At the very least, I can always count on the Bitchery members to disagree with class and style, even when heated issues light up the stats like someone farted on a match.
So do I think Ward is responsible for the behaviour of her fans? Nah. Was it a dumb move to ban a user who asked questions that some fans didn’t like? Yup. Does it suck that people can be buttnoids online? Sure it does. But then, some people out there think Candy and I are the buttnoids.
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Categories: Random Musings • The Link-O-Lator
Categories: Random Musings • The Link-O-Lator
I’ve asked Ward a personal question about other non-normative sexualities in her novels and she replied personally to me in ways that suggest that she absolutely knows about how gay her characters are. I can’t see her having a problem with it. Her raving fangirls? Yes, but not her.
I also know from discussion with Suz Brockmann that Ward has talked with her about crazy fangirls, asking for advice on how to deal with them. Because they both have them.
That being said, I can understand how she would fall victim to her own press--I imagine it would be very difficult to avoid doing so for anyone, if we’re honest with ourselves. She also hasn’t actually been on the boards recently, as far as I can tell (except for Friday night), so I don’t know how aware she is of all this happening (although she probably is--she’s a complete control freak).
Are people shitty assholes? Yes. Can we assume Ward is? Not me. I’d need more confirmation, more extended examples of being an idiot, before I stopped buying her books. But then, I love me some Brotherhood.
Rereading, this came out sounding more defensive of Ward than I meant it to. Authors behaving badly are fun, that’s for sure, but I don’t see the direct cause-effect right now for Ward, so I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt.
I’d be way shocked to discover J.R. Ward banned anyone, unless this person was obviously causing grief for the sake of being a pain in the ass. That’s pretty obvious - not a person expressing their opinion, but deliberately being an asshole. Let’s face it, assholes exist, and they crawl out from under piles of dogshit sometimes - especially when somone is enjoying success just a leetle bit too much.
Not that this is the case here - I haven’t got a clue.
Author message boards aren’t the same as a blog, I don’t think. I don’t have one, but if I did, I’d set it up so people could talk about my books. Discuss what’s coming next, what they liked and didn’t like about the books out now. If someone said they didn’t much care for language or content or whatever, I’d be bummed, because hey, who likes criticism? But I wouldn’t ban them from the boards - which is why I really can’t think Ward would do so.
Unless, as I mentioned earlier, an asshole crawled out and started hurling dogshit. Then I’d ban them, because who needs it? Wouldn’t it be like throwing a party and having someone show up loaded, drunk and obnoxious? Dude starts dissing me and my house and the other guests, maybe throwing up on somebody’s shoes, he’s so outta there.
I have heard that Ward’s fans are pretty over the top. *shrugs* Who knows what’s up?
FWIW, the mods posted this on Thursday:
“In the past couple of days we had two threads removed because of disrespectful content and personal attacks of other members of the board. We will not allow personal attacks or disrespectful posts to stay on the board. They will be removed. If you have questions about the books, or there are scenes in the book that you disliked you have the option of posting about them but your views must be posted in a respectful manner. If you disagree with someone else’s opinion you also can voice your opinion but again, do so respectfully. Several people have been deactivated over this issue on BOTH sides. Disregard for the rules will not be tolerated nor will we tolerate attacks on other members of the board.
“If you cannot be respectful to each other or you feel a post is not respectful, you need to report the offending post to the moderators and not take matters into your own hands. This causes more problems and just adds fuel to the fire. There will be people who join the board just to see if they can start a riot for their own gain and unfortunately that is exactly what happened with this whole situation. What better way to drive traffic to your site than by causing trouble on a very active message board then taking it to your own site to have the throw down.
“ALL of you are guests on this message board. This board is not here for you to bash each other. If you choose not to follow the rules and post your questions and opinions in a respectful manner then you will be removed from the board.
“Finally, why is the board PG13 and the books not? Simply an issue of decorum. And as this is an ADULT membership only board, as adults we should be able to hold conversations WITHOUT using rude and obnoxious language.
“As always, if you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to contact the MODs.”
So, apparently they deleted from both sides of the aisle, if that can be believed.
I can’t wait to see the shitstorm this post dregs up tomorrow when the Cellies (god bless their crazy little hearts) get ahold of this! ;) But then I’m a sadistic bitch and I love watching people behaving badly.
Should other readers hold J. R. Ward responsible for the behavior of her rabid fangirls? I think that is making Ward liable and accountable for every opinion/gush/complaint out there about her books. I loved Lover Awakened but I know there are others who didn’t. But I’m not flaming each and every person who disagrees with me.
That’s the wonderful thing about opinions—everyone has one! I don’t necessarily have to like yours and you don’t have to like me. Was the banning and other bad behavior necessary? Not in my opinion.
I do feel sorry for the reader who was banned. I wonder if it’s left a bad taste in her mouth for J. R. Ward’s future books. And I don’t believe Ward can be held accountable for her fans’ actions. Should she re-think how her board is run? Definitely.
Michelle said on...I don’t know looking at some of the comments on the other blogs it seems that there probably was blame on both sides.
I know some trolls specifically go to boards to stir up trouble. I know it has happened on ADWOFF. Its a fine line between supporting an author you admire and respect and being rabid. I think flame wars can sprout up quickly. Anyway J.R. Ward’s books are still on my TBR pile and I plan to read them. I don’t think she should be expected to spend all her time patrolling her fanboards.
Forgot to say:
I’m a rabid fangirl of Sarah and Candy - anybody calls you buttnoids, I’ll call ‘em cheap, two-bit ho-bags with bad hair and ugly mothers.
said on...I think a couple of things here:
1)You can’t claim you don’t know that you run that risk if you do post a criticism of any kind on an author’s fan BB. Sometimes it’s the author themselves crying foul. You pays your money; you takes your chances.
2) I did see the thread and s/he was warned. I think it did cross the line from critique to complaint or bashing. I’ve posting criticisms before and not felt flamed or the like. It is in how you phrase it.
3) Every author has rabid fans. We wouldn’t have trekkies, WoW, or Harry Potter without them. Are JRW’s fans over the edge? Probably. But then, she’s a new-er author. How many Pern fans are still getting together to talk about Dragon sex? I probably saw a lot of them down in Atlanta recently, but I’m willing to bet that there aren’t nearly as many as there were when McCaffrey’s books were peaking.
4) JRW’s a lawyer… so, she’s probably not going to address this issue. And I’m not sure she should. She has moderators (allegedly rabid or otherwise) and they, as far as I know, make the calls. If I was trying to write and had a BB with even 100 members, I’d want someone else who could be on it all the time to moderate.
And that’s sort of the kicker for me. I like all the extra tidbits that I get being a member on the boards. Heck, I’m even a RPG’er and Star Trek fan, so I enjoy the times when her characters “post” to the boards. But, I basically ignore the people who do not seem to be grounded in reality, who… take it too far.
Robin said on...I don’t think an author should per se be responsible for what goes on in her messageboards (although as an atty, I’m sure Ward knows where those lines are). But here’s my question: does a particular author help set a tone for her messageboards, directly or indirectly?
I understand that some folks just are where they are in terms of extreme fandom, but does an author have ANY influence on the character, nature, tone, and direction of discussions on her boards? After all, it IS in Ward’s best interest, as an author of books she wants to sell, to have readers buy lock, stock, and barrel into the fictional world she’s created.
Also, as I love gossip, can anyone explain some of the charges re Ward buying into her own hype? It’s actually something I’ve wondered about since the second book in the series, but it’s been more of an intuition than anything else.
said on...You know, I commented on some of the stuff I saw in JRW’s first book on another list. Mostly about the way the brotherhood spoke in acronyms. I found it annoying and unbelievable, my opinion. The response I got wasn’t wildly loving. Should have stuck with bashing LKH. Now I hear about this flare up on her boards. I foresee more interesting things to come.
Still, I don’t see how an author can be held responsible for the actions of looney fans. It isn’t reasonable, it isn’t practical, it’s unfair.
But there is a question here - SB Sarah, what would you do if this blog was taken over by people with views you just couldn’t stomach, couldn’t support?
***Also, as I love gossip, can anyone explain some of the charges re Ward buying into her own hype?***
Robin, I don’t understand this question. I seriously doubt I can answer at any rate - but I want to understand what you’re asking.
Robin, I don’t understand this question. I seriously doubt I can answer at any rate - but I want to understand what you’re asking.
I have read on a couple of blogs that Ward is “buying into her own hype” (which I assume means letting success go to her head). Since I’m not really part of all the inside stuff with this series, including thee messageboard, I’m wondering what people mean when they say this. In other, what are the incidents that lead individuals to say that Ward is “buying into her own hype”?
Stef said:
Unless, as I mentioned earlier, an asshole crawled out and started hurling dogshit. Then I’d ban them, because who needs it? Wouldn’t it be like throwing a party and having someone show up loaded, drunk and obnoxious? Dude starts dissing me and my house and the other guests, maybe throwing up on somebody’s shoes, he’s so outta there.
And Desertwillow said:
But there is a question here - SB Sarah, what would you do if this blog was taken over by people with views you just couldn’t stomach, couldn’t support?
****
I totally agree with Stef, if someone is making an ass out of themselves to the point they’re puking on my carpet, or let’s say, started trying to rip a new asshole into one of my friends, it’s time to kick that person’s ass right out the door. I kind of doubt JRW has the time to notice all the crap going on the BB but if she did see something out of control and asked the moderators to kick some folks out of the party, I’m supportive of that stance. However, if she hadn’t of done that, I wouldn’t fault her or the moderators becuase it’s still her house and her call.
Now, regarding what Desertwillow said, comin’ over to our favorite Bitches house to raise a stink is a whole different matter. It’s kind of like stepping into the toughest bar in the town where hardest, most intelligent, edgiest women love to hang out. Somebody comes over here and tries to start a shitstorm, they’ll find their asses handed back to them on a platter.
(Hey, it’s already happened a few times much to my enjoyment, LOL!)
I broke my vow to not follow links or read a lot of blogshit - way too time consuming, and about as unproductive as eating deep-fried Twinkies. Still, some days you just gotta eat artery-clogging shit. Or read pointless BS. I clicked on Sarah’s link and read something like 150+ comments to the banned fan’s blog. Whoo damn - what a deal. Then I thought, well, hell, in for a penny, in for a pound, and clicked on other links about this...what do I call it? Altercation?
I have no opinion. Honestly. I just don’t care.
As for JRW buying into her hype - I suspect she’s a busy little bee, writing her ass off to keep up with a six month production schedule. These are loooong books. I saw somewhere that there are 3200 people on her boards - that’s just her boards. Imagine all the email she gets. Hell, I get just a few a week, and I find it hard to keep up with answering. So maybe a few fans haven’t been answered and feel snubbed and assume she’s a Big Head who thinks she’s the shit. Who knows?
And really - who cares? But then, I’m not big into falling in love with an author - it’s the books I fall in love with. She/He can be a two-headed giant with a God complex, but if she/he writes great books, I’m there.
Actually, I just lied like a dog. I know a few authors, personally, whose books I won’t buy because they’re rude and nasty. But these are people I actually know. And they’re not Big Heads. They’re just mean spirited.
Okay, I’ve reached the month’s limit on blog-hopping and comments. I even wrote a post on my own blog today. Hell hath surely frozen over!
I leave you all to figure out JR Ward and the altercation and the presence or absence of a head too big. Me, I’m going to bed. :)
said on...I pose the same question to myself - if we were (un)fortunate to attract a troll, would it be my responsibility to ban and delete that user’s posts until they signed up again under a different user name from a different IP?
******
I don’t think it’s a ‘responsibility’ issue per se. It’s an issue of how much irritation you want in your daily life. Unlike many authors, you read the comments at your site everyday. Think how annoying it would be to have to read trollish crap every day, and then think how much easier it would be to just push the ‘block user’ button instead.
A personal website is not a democracy - it’s more like an authoritarian state. You can choose to be a benign dictator (if you like!), but you still get to be dictator. I wouldn’t go back and delete what’s already been said, but I would block trolls from posting more.
said on...IMO each person is responsible for their own actions, nobody should have to be responsible for crazed fans.
There are authors I do not like, others I used to like and no longer read. The answer is simple, if you don’t like it, don’t read it...throw it out in the yard and let the neighborhood dogs pee on it for all I care. But some fans need to grow up and quit whining.
Should obnoxious fans be 86’d from author websites? Do whatever you like, it’s your website...fans that don’t like it can go play in a different sandbox. But please cease the immature whining, unless it’s entertaining.
said on...As far as I know there’s a company JR hired to moderate her forum and they are very serious about it! JR was participating in a workshop I was having and I posted info about it on her board and got a very scathing email about doing promo on the board. Even though JR was participating in the event I was promoting. Go figure.
OK, first my full disclosure: I’m a JRW fan (but certainly not rabid).
Having said that, I can and do separate her books from her fans. I saw the Mod post that Sarah posted above but since I totally missed the thread before it disappeared, I can’t really comment on what happened. I do know other board participants who were involved in another thread deleted for “inappropriate content” and frankly, they were OK with it. Shrug and move on. But I don’t think that one degenerated into personal attacks.
There’s a code of conduct on the board, which people are expected to follow. If posters feel attacked, they’re supposed to report it. BUT I realise that’s easier said than done. I tend to think there was bad behaviour on both sides because I’ve seen quite a few comments along the same lines as Dylan’s and those threads didn’t get personal. I know other Cellies who love to read gay romances and do titter about some of the brotherly bonding scenes so I’m not sure what made Dylan’s post stand out.
As for JRW answering questions, I’ve always found her quite open and receptive. She has answered two of my e-mails and most of my questions on blogs without knowing who I am. (And I’ve seen people remind her about their questions when she misses them so maybe Holly should have done that, too.) I agree she’s more responsive to some long-time members/frequent posters on the board but really, does she have time to personally welcome each and every member? I don’t think she is deliberately exclusionary. I’ve seen people with only 1 or 2 posts to their names whose questions have been answered personally by JRW.
What I do find appalling are some of the comments on the blogs by self-avowed Cellies, who have continued with the personal attacks. I think it smacks of the mob mentality and makes me cringe and frankly, feel a bit sorry for JRW that she’s being associated with this behaviour.
said on...If JRW was an author who had a minimal online presence I wouldn’t find her silence at all odd or insulting. Since she DOES post on the board and she HAS an active online presence, I feel (and this is just my opinion) that she should have called off those rabid fans. And she could have, make no mistake about that. I feel that if she can come out from behind her her busy schedule to “play” with her fans, then she can do the same when some of her fans are treated like shit. That’s all I’m holding her responsible for. Not for their terrible behavior. Never that.
As for the MOD’s retarded accusation that I posted to get traffic for my blog...nice conspiracy theory and a way to explain away your own disgusting behavior, but not true. I’m not selling anything or promoting anything so why should I care if I get one hit or one million hits? It’s a blog people, not a store that if I pulled in traffic, I might sell more of something.
What should have been something small blew up into something ugly for no reason. All Dylan did was post a few questions and comments to an author about things she wanted answered about LA. If she came off as rude, THAT should have been addressed. Privately, by the MOD’s. Instead, she was allowed to be attacked for three pages worth of posts and then banned before the thread was deleted. That I thought was wrong. Especially since it all happened before she had a chance to go back and defend herself. And I’m entilted to that opinion. I’m not asking you to feel the same way. I’m just saying I’m allowed to think the way the MOD’s and the “cellies” went about things was dead wrong.
And if the Smart Bitches began censoring their posters what a sad and less-colorful world it would be! But then, I don’t believe in censoring. If I did I have deleted at least 100 out of the 126 nasty comments left by JRW’s loving “cellies” on my blog. One of which even suggested that “Z” should kill Dylan.
I believe the SBs have the right to throw out anyone they believe is behaving badly. This is your space. You set it up, you’re paying for the bandwidth, and as has been pointed out, it’s like some obnoxious drunk coming over and trashing your house.
I work in other forums and there seems to be a misconception that blogs and forums are subject to First Amendment and freedom of the press rules, and that’s simply not true. I prefer the benevolent dictatorship analogy.
And I like my mental image of Candy doing some wire-fu high kicks upside some rude person’s head.
I personally hate rabid fangirls. i hate lemminglike behavior of any kind. No one is perfect, and we all screw up. So blind adoration annoys me.
My opinion is if it’s your site and someone is acting like a total ass, you do have the right to edit posts, but then where does it end? Removing or editing posts, no.
But telling your RFGs to act like people, yes. If they worship you that much, they’ll chill the hell out. As an author, you don’t want to alienate ANYONE who might buy your stuff.
the toughest bar in the town where hardest, most intelligent, edgiest women love to hang out.
Smart Bitches is the place where the cool kids are? Do that mean I finally get to be cool?
(Sorry, I have nothing to add. Just want to follow the thread!)
“Does” not “do” - what an idiot. See? Still not cool, not even here.
*sigh* Okay I was one of the girls banned from JR’s site. Hmmm, not going to go all into it again. Just wanted to say that your post was very well writen and the comments were very respectful. Wish it were like this everywhere. lol. But hey, the worlds not perfect. I’m not about author love as someone said either. The only time I go to their boards is if I need clarification on something in their books. Sooooo just for the record: Dylan was not just stiring up shit. And JR should have control of her own board, and if she doesn’t? She should take it down. Let the rabid fans make their own MB then it won’t reflect on JR cause it’s not on her site.
Oh and if you want to read the post Dylan had posted that started it all? Go here: http://sanctuarysbookblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/secret-underground-cult-nopejust-some.html
Having followed this from the beginning and even before, the posters banned ARE big fans of J.R. Wards’s books. It’s not like they went there to diss on them. Dylan had a few questions - being a fan and all. And though I missed what the fans had to say to her - I will NEVER visit an author message board I have to actually register for - I am able to separate the books from the author and will never get that invested in an author to the extent rabid fan girls do, it seems they took it way beyond rational limits. As to the author herself, she seems like a very nice person who is attentative and caring to her fans, I do think her and other authors with over the top fans should step in once in a while and say to the more “enthusiastic” ones - hey - chill for a bit. I think they should do that for their own protection. Rabid, over the top fans can do some pretty nasty damage to an author’s reputation me thinks. And that’s too bad because it’s not the fans that would feel the fallout of their own nasty behaviour.
said on...I don’t know how J.R. Ward’s board is set up. On ADWOFF there are many sections, many threads under those sections. I’d never get anything done if I read all of them daily, or even now and again. There are a specific few I visit, and one I go into daily--or nearly--to answer specific questions.
Posters occasionally get cranky, or downright confrontational. Mods usually cool things down. I will, if it seems appropriate or required, post a comment or opinion crafted to do the same.
It isn’t my board, but a fan-generated board where I participate. Even if it was mine, run by me, I don’t know how I might control a flame-war. I’m thinking deleting the posts would be a last resort. Locking the thread would probably come first. But I don’t really know the ins and outs of running a MB.
I do know that as a writer I don’t feel--and don’t want to be expected to feel--responsible for the actions or the posts of my readers for good or ill. Certainly on a board about my books, where I have a presence I’d try to put out the flames--if I were around to do so. Not always around though. I don’t know Ward, but I don’t imagine she’s always around either.
I’d also like to say that imo everyone’s a buttnoid now and then. Otherwise, life would be pretty dull. Cyberworld would certainly be much less entertaining without regular scoopings of buttnoidyess behavior.
Hi Mrs. Roberts. Thank you for your input. I feel the same way as you, only you expressed it more eloquently than I have.
I don’t expect JRW to put herself in the center of a flame war. But, on the same hand, she IS active on her board, which is why I feel she should have stepped in and calmed things. She had the power to do exactly that, since, as one member said, when JRW says she likes Tito Ortiz (for example) of the UFC, suddenly her members are fans of his as well. That shows me she has influence there and she chooses to remain silent as many of her members are intimidated and bullied by her MOD’s and by her more rabid fans.
Thank you again! Your opinion is much appreciated.
I like how Tyler refers to buttnoidyess coming from La Nora as eloquent ;)
So what’s a Cellie?
Do you think it’s worth hiring rabid fan girls to get some buzz? (heh. my verification word is “plant84")
P.S. I’d put in yet another “yah, don’t you mess with my bitches,” but the bitches don’t need no steenkin hired guns. They are the pros. If I want someone torn a new one, I’d hire Candy or Sarah to do the job. (In fact I have begged Candy and she came charging over the hill like the US Cavalry she is.)
Yeah, what is a Cellie? And what, for that matter, is ADWOFF? (Jesus, I can no way keep up with all this MB telegraphy--ROFLMAOTSETUNG.)
Hmm, I forgot what the AD stands for, but the rest is
With
Out
French
Fries
I think.
La Nora rocks, yes?
As for people who are buttnoids online, this is my favorite reference. Sometimes the funniest part is how predictable these assholes are.
A Day With Out French Fries.
Ah, thanks Other Stef who is a Mistress. I admit, it was bugging me that I couldn’t remember.
Speaking of french fries....
Well, since my blog got linked, I guess I’ll clarify a bit.
Cellie’s aside, I’m thinking as much about her mods on that board.
The reason why I think the author should take some responsibility in this mess, is because the board exists on her “offical” and, I’m assuming, authorized website. It’s not fan owned.
I get she’s busy but, since someone mentioned Rowling, I doubt even she would be so busy as to not reign it in somehow.
Simply because it’s bad PR.
Her silence says she’s ok with her mods speaking for her. That mean’s they’re representing her.
Yes some would say there is no such thing as “bad” pr, but if someone is misrepresenting me, it’s not just bad pr- it’s bad business and said representers should be told to calm it down.
That’s all.
Oh and I stand by assertion that an author bb is simply a bad idea ... blog? not so much. BB? RUN AWAY!
hey i’ll give Ward the bennie- maybe she DID talk to her mods?
I don’t visit the board, but I’ll be interested in knowing whether it calms down any ...
but what about the meaning of a CELLIE?
Don’t make me go all ballistic on your asses, people.
A “cellie” is a self-tagged name for a member of J R Ward’s bb.
She’s the WARDen and they are her Cellies.
*cough*
So the Cellies are zellies....
Am I the only one who is now thinking of words that rhyme with cellie?
Jelly
Belly
Telly
Smelly
Deli
Shelly
Banana Fanna Fo Fanna
If only I could haiku.....
I don’t know whether anyone can blame an author for his/her fans’s reactions (including mass hysteria) unless the author him/herself is fanning the flames.
My understanding is that JRWard is paying a company to set up and run the board. Yes, she participates, and more often than say, Suzanne Brockmann does on her own BB. Does that mean JRWard should monitor the forum constantly and nip in the bud any unseemly behaviour? I would think that’s what she hired the company for, isn’t it? From where I sit, JRWard responsibility ends with setting up the basic format and tone of the forum with the company she hired to run it.
(I will say though that for a forum with some 3300+ registered users, having only two moderators is asking for trouble. Those people have to sleep and eat and have those elusive things known as ‘lives’--there’s just no way two people can monitor all the threads sprouting all over the place 24/7.)
spam foiler: should11
I don’t really think the core issue here is whether Ward should be accountable or responsible for what her fans do on her own site’s messageboard. I think it goes to how an author is involved in shaping his or her own public persona. So while I don’t hold Ward responsible for out of control fans per se, I think it’s interesting that a woman who was described in this thread as a “control freak” is involved in this kind of situation. Somewhere there’s a disconnect.
Some authors are really good at spinning their own publicity and some aren’t. But IMO, either through passive or active involvement in the creation and perpetuation of their own public image, they DO play a role in the shaping of that image. Whether Ward is involved in the policing of her board or her mods, she’s a presence. How could she not be? Her work is the reason for the existence of those boards.
I don’t think she necessarily should be chastizing her mods in the forum itself, nor do I think she should or could conceivably be held responsible for the flame wars on her own boards. BUT, I would think, logically speaking, that a woman who is a “control freak” wouldn’t be unaware of what’s going on. And whether or not it’s reflective of her true position on things, I do think her silence sends a message. What kind of message that is will depend on the listener, I guess. But it’s baffling to me why any author would want such vitriol connected to her name, regardless of the source. The list of those authors who seem to have a high tolerance for such drama as directly connected to their websites and therefore their public voice (beyond their work) yields some interesting names. It’s difficult for me to believe that Ward would feel comfortable on that roster, but I guess anything’s possible. Of course it’s also possible that she simply doesn’t yet know how to control or direct her own spin (although her advertised professional background wouldn’t logically lead me to that conclusion). Maybe she’s just hoping it will all die down before she figures out how to handle these types of outbreaks in the future. Since she has a medical and a legal background, maybe she’s working on some kind of anti-venom or anti-viral solution.
As someone who does spin control for a living, I’d advocate for early intervention, but not being a member of that MB, I can’t discern whether she’s already tried that and found it to be unworkable.
I want to get me some crazed fangirls.
All my readers seem so nice and normal. *Sigh* Must be my writing style.
said on...I’m neither an author nor a board moderator, however let me toss in my two cents. First, it seems there is general agreement that no author is responsible for the behavior of his/her fans. So, the concern is coming from the perception that silence implies acceptance of this flame war that occurred on a board that Ms. Ward has running through her site. However, I suggest that board silence may be Ms. Ward wanting the mods to take care of it - she may well having been emailing or otherwise contacting them to make sure they were aware and were addressing the issue. Ms. Ward may well have wanted all of that to be taken care of by the mods, so that they continue to be viewed as the people taking care of issues rather than having people turn to her for such resolutions - or for appeals of mod decisions.
If hosts start having to babysit folks who come to their site and make offending/dumb/inappropriate comments, it’d never end. If it becomes out of hand, you just send an e-mail to the guy/gal and threaten to send them chicken blood by the mail. Works every time.
It’s like if you host a party at your house and 250 people show up, you can’t be expected to check who said what to whom and when and using what sort of tone… that’s the other guests’ job.
Who’s J.R. Ward, anyway?
Ever complain about something “Outlander” on a Diana Gabaldon board? Talk about a feeding frenzy ...
Several years back I expressed my distaste for Brianna and was promptly torn to shreds by rabid DG fans. Albiet in the midst there were a few who were rational, but the rabids overwhelmed the discussion I had tried to create.
Now, this wasn’t a site moderated by DG or anything but it’s the same principal. The fans are not a reflection of the author, and perhaps the thread was shut down just because it was too hot and ruined it for rabid fangirls who aren’t normally rabid but just can’t resist responding to a troll as opposed to just ignoring.
Did Ward post a follow-up message warning of bad behaviour? If not, as moderator she really should have taken that upon herself.
... or rather, ruined by rabid fangirls who otherwise aren’t rabid.
Me have bad day & me write good.
A.M.Hartnett said,
Did Ward post a follow-up message warning of bad behaviour? If not, as moderator she really should have taken that upon herself.
JRWard is not a moderator in her forum. She does post there, but she is not a moderator herself.
The moderators did post a warning/explanation on the deletion of two threads related to the latest kerkuffle--Sarah F. posted it up-thread.
Robin, I myself wonder at the control freak comment about JRWard--just as I wonder about the whole “she buys her own hipe” thing. True, I’ve only read the three Brotherhood books a couple of weeks ago, and joined the board shortly after, so I’m definitely not up to date on any history of freakish behaviour on either JRWard’s part or the moderators’s.
(spamfoiler: think18 ha!)
Thanks to the people who responded to my question. I have no doubt that SB Sarah and SB Candy would kick ass and take names if any trolls, buttnoids, or napolis tried to stage a coup.
But this JR Ward and rabid fangirls has gotten me thinking: I still don’t think JR should be held responsible for the behavior of people who think they are her fans but now I ask myself - if it were my writing career, my PR, my fan base - wouldn’t I want to take responsibility and hose the out of control crazies down a little? And yes, I can see some problems with that and where it could backfire but I wouldn’t want people to go crazy and drive off new business.
I’m just saying....
OK, I felt the need to say some thing as a rabid fangirl.
a) I have problems with the boards. Namely the mods. I feel that they are overly biased and unfair in their judgements.
b) The mods did the right thing in this case. I didnt directly see it, but a few friends told me about it, and it basically degenerated into a mud slinging contest, cursing on all sides.
c) The board has a PG-13 rating. The mods stick to this zealously, and that was the main reason I feel the thread we deleted. It went way over the line in that department.
d) Should the participants have been banned? Hell no. As someone who was banned and was obsessed enough to get back on, its a pain in the ass. And frankly, they were kicked off for unfair reasons. (I think I was too, btw. I got booted for being 15)
e) JR Ward is not a moderator in her board. She often gets in trouble with the mods herself. She has never posted when there is a large disagreement on the boards like this. She tends to stay out of them as much as she can.
I do not think an author is responsible for controlling his/her fans. What they do on their own time is their buisness. Would they do as JR asked if she told them to stop? Probably. But I really do not think it is her decision to make, not when she has books due every 3 months (she writes under two names) and moderators she hired to perform that task for her.
(PS, sorry if I offended anyone. That seems to be happening a lot in other discussion about this)
I am not offended at all, FormerlyNightSong, but I wonder… How is it unfair to be banned from a board that clearly states that you must be over 18 to be a member… when you admit you are 15?
I felt it was unfair because I signed up for the boards May 4th. At that time there was an option for members who were under 18 to go through, which basically got permission from your parents to be on the boards. I did that option, got permission, and was later kicked off. So I found that to be unfair and very misleading.
I think I must have a pretty short attention span. I am tickled when I read a great story. I may blog about it and gush about it to friends. I also check out authors sites for new releases and order them as soon as possible when I love a book/series.
But I don’t understand how people can repeatedly visit and revisit some of these messages boards turning themselves into rapid fans just waiting for the opportunity to pounce on someone who does not equally love said piece of fiction.
Once I am done with a story I am usually quickly lured away by other books. I just don’t have the patience to continuely live in a particular fictional world. The more time spent on a single book/series that I have already completed, is less time reading new books.
I guess I am a lovem and leavem book slut or else I am easily distracted by shiny objects. I just don’t get it.
I guess that makes me a book slut, too. Hell, sometimes I even trade off between two or three different books, depending on what I feel like reading at any particular time.
I may be loyal enough to a series or author to auto-order, but I have never become so blindly devoted that I am incapable of seeing their flaws. The rabid fans who insist that their book/author/tv series is flawless often seem to be more in love with their own idea of the book/author/tv series than the actuality.
I’ve read Ward, and I like her series. It’s campy, and chock full of the hoyay. And, yeah, there is something really silly about a bunch of pale-ass, gigantic whiteguys rollin around the hood (are things that different in upstate NY?) throwing ninja stars and stomping on bad guys while listening to Tupac and Ludacris.
But, hey, like Ed Wood (or Johnny Depp, as Ed Wood) said, “Haven’t you ever heard of suspension of disbelief?”. Yes, Ed/Johnny, I have. It’s essential gear for any trip to Camp.
In my opinion, J.R. does have some responsibility with what goes on on the boards. As I recall, she’s listed as the administrator (J. Bird), so doesn’t that mean that she is ultimately the one that runs the site? And plus, as a lurker there myself, I do know that she is a VERY active participant, sometimes visiting and posting messages several times a day. I also know that she’s visited other sites and message boards where discussions of her books have been going on, and she’s always been more than happy to post on those. I’m even willing to bet my money that a few of the “cellies” have pm’ed or e-mailed her to death about the incident and what’s being said about her and the mods. This is why I find it so unappealing that she hasn’t stepped up and addressed this issue...surely she knows that she’s been the talk of the town this past few days. I hate to say it, but my opinion of her is slowly going down the tubes. Just yesterday, she was on the boards raving about how much her “cellies” rock and how fabulous and understanding they are....muah, muah, muah *sigh*
When I first joined the boards, I noticed right away that some of the members weren’t playing with a full deck. I actually felt kinda bad for Ward. I mean, how annoying can it be when you mention that one of the characters drinks Grey Goose and then suddenly, everyone and their mother has to stock their cabinets full of the stuff. I stopped feeling bad for her a while ago. It seems to me that she actually doesn’t mind it at all....If I had to say, she revels in it. Keep in mind that this is only my opinion based on her responses.
I honestly don’t think any changes to the boards are coming anytime soon, but if she had any kind of sense she would at least fire those unfair mods.
Natalie, like your point about hostess and party. My sister invited a few friends over for her 40th B-day. She later heard those friends invited other friends, people she didn’t like and did not want to share her special day hostessing. So she cancelled the party and she and hubby went out to dinner (ie made sure they were absent at party time).
Moral of the story...if your friends associate with rabid fangirls, cancell the party. Isn’t that what happened to JRWard?
BTW...WARDen & cellies? Eeeewh, please.
OMG, speaking of author websites I just read Gail Dayton’s. She was recently notified that Luna will NOT be publishing her third Rose book (as previously advertised in March 2007).
As previously speculated by SB, clearly Harlequin is whack. Since Luna is their only line that I read even occasionally, they have probably seen the last of me as a customer. Should I bother writting to tell them so?
As previously speculated by SB, clearly Harlequin is whack. Since Luna is their only line that I read even occasionally, they have probably seen the last of me as a customer. Should I bother writting to tell them so?
OMG, yes! From what I understand, Harlequin is actually one of the publishers that does actively solicit and pay attention to reader feedback in its publishing choices.
Just yesterday, she was on the boards raving about how much her “cellies” rock and how fabulous and understanding they are....muah, muah, muah *sigh*
When I first joined the boards, I noticed right away that some of the members weren’t playing with a full deck. I actually felt kinda bad for Ward. I mean, how annoying can it be when you mention that one of the characters drinks Grey Goose and then suddenly, everyone and their mother has to stock their cabinets full of the stuff.
Obviously Ward is comfortable enough with this scenario to keep it going on a site she owns and runs—at least for now. On the one hand, I can see how she wouldn’t want to alienate a very enthusiastic fan base, but if her reputation suffers on a wider scale, I would think she’d be aware of that and maybe adjust her approach. Who knows what’s going on behind the scenes, even now. I think this is one of those ‘time will tell’ scenarios.
Whoever mentioned “Ed Wood” nailed the feeling I have for the Brotherhood books. They’re campy and mostly fun, eeven though my reactions to them have been mixed. I can’t take them too seriously, I find aspects of them over the top, I see them as pretty traditional despite all their purported world building, and I am already growing tired of certain things about the brothers and the prospect of however many more books (how many permutations of the same formula can Ward/Bird sell me on?). Phury is really the only brother I’m actively curious about right now, although I’m hoping Butch’s story offers up a different view of the Brotherhood’s world, especially since he is not fully integrated into it yet. At this point, I’m hoping for one big brotherhood orgy to dissipate all that manlove energy.
Yeah DL,
It’s not the hosts’ job to provide the fun (or lack thereof) but the guests’. That being said, that author is enjoying publicity right now, even if it’s not necessarily about her work or the “right” kind of publicity, and I guess that’s all that counts. We’re all talking about her, all been to her site (I have, anyway...I didn’t even know who she was).
So is this a controversy now? Man, I wish I had one of those! You can’t buy these things, you know. They’re a wild beast, and when one happens to you, you hang on and ride the wave!
Okay, I want a controversy. Let me see, I like bunnies on toast. There you go. Nathalie is eeeveel...can I have rabid fangirls now?
said on...The rabid fangurlz were bad enough; I see enough of the capslock emo in middle-schoolers. I agree that an author is not responsible for emotionally overwrought fans, but…
“Phury” as a character name? White gangsta paranormals? “Overwrought” works as an adjective here, too, as does “silly.” Seems to me, books like that get the fans they deserve.
Nancy Gee said,
Seems to me, books like that get the fans they deserve.
My apologies but… what?
I am taken aback that this sentence--enough so that I can’t quite put my reaction to words coherently.
Crazy people have read, and become obssessed with, great works of literature as well--do those books deserve that too?
Sorry, can’t follow that logic.
‘Crazy people have read, and become obssessed with, great works of literature as well--do those books deserve that too?’
Right on, azteclady...The Catcher in the Rye is practically the Psycho’s Bible. That’s like blaming Jodie Foster for John Hinkley’s behavior.
As someone who thinks J.R. Ward is responsible for the actions of the members of her board, I thought I’d share my thoughts as well.
As others have said, I hold her partially responsible because she is an Admin of her board, and she spends quite a bit of time there. Can she control the behavior of other people? No, of course not. No one can.
But she could address this publicly, letting the more zealous Cellies know that while she loves them, yada, yada, certain behavior isn’t acceptable. It’s a direct reflection on her if her fans behave badly. Perhaps it shouldn’t be, but there it is.
Just yesterday, she was on the boards raving about how much her “cellies” rock and how fabulous and understanding they are....muah, muah, muah *sigh*
She was also on the board saying/doing this the day after the “incident” with Dylan and Jazz. So I find it very, very hard to believe that she had “no knowledge” of what happened.
I guess what it comes down to, in my mind, is that all fans should be treated equal *g*. Why is it ok for her regular posters to jump all over a new member, but it isn’t alright for the new member - who also happens to be a fan, btw - to state her thoughts and opinions?
By keeping silent, this is the message I get from Ward. I also get the impression, and perhaps I’m biased now, that had Dylan’s original post been “OMG!OMG!I LOVE YOU! I LOVE YOU!” Ward herself would have responded.
I still say she’s at least partially responsible. As I said on our post, if this was a publisher/fan created site, that was moderated by the publisher/fans, I wouldn’t hold Ward responsible. But it isn’t. Ward is the Admin and she’s a regular poster. Therefore, it’s a direct reflection of her when things like this happen.
In my own, quiet, middle-aged chick sort of way, I’m a total fangirl of JRW’s books. I can’t remember the last time I actually paid attention to a release date and went to the store on that date, specifically to buy the book. September 5, I was at B&N, buying Lover Awakened. I’ve read a few vampire romances, but only a few. It’s not the vampire element, or the vocabulary, or anything other than the romance that I enjoy about these books. I’ve read nit-picky reviews about them, and sometimes concur with a lot of the comments.
But I don’t care. The woman has a talent for writing romance.
I’ve never been to her message boards. I looked at her website once, after I read the first book. It’s just not in me to be rabidly obsessed with an author, or her books.
It is in me to seek out good reads - and in my honest opinion, her books are very good.
LOL, Azteclady! Mine was an admittedly gut reaction, not logical at all. That’s what I get for posting just before bed. The word “deserve” did not convey my thoughts properly. No one deserves ill-mannered, overly protective fans.
I’m coming from a feeling that “out there” books with more bizarre plots and characters could well attract a more “out there” fan base.
And yes, indeed, even the most serious mainstream literature can attract strange individuals who go overboard in their devotion, but I seldom see emotional group disputes that spill over into public forums.
I do wonder how much the nature (in terms of genre, concept, or content) of any given book influences the emotional climate of its fan base. Would a more mainstream romance writer see the same emotional firestorm among their fans?
Just my $1.50 I think it’s a mistake for authors/celebs to sponsor bulletin boards. They always run into this kind of trouble.
The freaks vs. the geeks and the whole compettion to impress the celeb in question.
Case in point, the BillyBoyd.net bulletin board. That board imploded under it own weight and was taken off the site. Mostly due to the shitty attitude of the the “regulars” self titled “The Loons” These were the freaks that ruined their own good time.
Authors/Celebs who admin thier own boards fan the flame wars. That quickly disentegrates until the authors own reputation is in shreds.
You ARE known by the company you keep.
I’ve picked up J.R. Wards Lover Awakened on the recomendation on AAR review. and was going to start it this week but after hearing that the author is one of those celebs who by all apperences gets off on having her fans fight over her. Meh maybe i’ll save it for later in the year and start Anthony Bourdain’s new one.
Nancy Gee, I’m honestly not trying to pick on you personally, but the idea that a book is responsible for people’s reactions to its contents. You said,
I’m coming from a feeling that “out there” books with more bizarre plots and characters could well attract a more “out there” fan base.
Not to get religious, but see who has read the New Testament and what they have done with it. You’ll find people devoting their lives to help others, to the education, health, protection, feeding of others… and you’ll help people who would, in the name of the same God, kill all those who don’t believe as they do.
Thinking that certain books foster certain behaviours leads, in my mind, to the idea that censoring such books is a good idea. I don’t like that myself.
On the other hand, are authors responsible for fanning the fires of zealotry in their readers? Some of them are, I’m sure. Authors are people, after all. And some people have enough class to share, and others wouldn’t know what to do with it if it smacked them in the ass. Which of these JRWard is, I don’t know.
But she could address this publicly, letting the more zealous Cellies know that while she loves them, yada, yada, certain behavior isn’t acceptable. It’s a direct reflection on her if her fans behave badly. Perhaps it shouldn’t be, but there it is.
Had it been my job to advise her in the manner of the job I do have to advise on issues of public perception and reception, this is exactly what I would have suggested. The logic behind that advice would be twofold: to set a tone for the “cellies” to respect and follow, and to indicate to her wider and more moderate readership that she respects and welcomes them, as well (and more subtly to indicate her own emotional distance from her more protective fans). Because even if her moderate reader base isn’t active on her MB, they’re reading ABOUT her on blogs like this one and Dylan’s.
I’ve picked up J.R. Wards Lover Awakened on the recomendation on AAR review. and was going to start it this week but after hearing that the author is one of those celebs who by all apperences gets off on having her fans fight over her. Meh maybe i’ll save it for later in the year and start Anthony Bourdain’s new one.
Miri, I am like you and get turned off by the rapid fans and on line bitch slapping. It does affect my reading choses. As I stated earlier, I just don’t have the devotion/attention span for these online worship sites. I try not to let authors misbehavior affect my choices, but they ultimately do. Staying away from their blogs and forums when they get heated is a good way to stay oblivious. There are a few authors that I quit reading just because of their on line antics. - That is a shame.
I am the owner of a web design firm and I cannot tell you how many clients I dissuade from using message boards/forums. They clearly have a use for some, but frankly it is my experience they can cause a lot of trouble and grief. Being able to communicate in a faceless world brings out the rudness/bad behavior in some of the most normally behaved people. Most people are raised and taught how to interact in public. It is not usually socially acceptable to be an asshat to strangers, but on the web all bets are off because people feel protected behind their online personalities.
As to the question of whether an author is responsible for their “zellie cellies”. I say ultimately yes. The author has made the decision to provide and pay for the message board. When you provide this type of public forum you will get the crazies. You will have people who feel included and loved and those who will get offended and leave. The author needs to weigh the potential gain of readers against the potential loss of readers. I have not visited the site, but gather that people have been offended and are being vocal about it. I am assuming (maybe wrongly) that Ward is aware of the situation and has decided to keep a low profile. This may be a smart move, but then again it may backfire in her face. I suspect right now she is finding it better to side with her cellies, but if enough people complain and she is a good business woman she will go into damage control. She may also not be a good business women and let her ego and adoration of her loving fans ruin a good thing. Time will tell.
I actually love her books and really don’t want to find out she has no class.
Azteclady-
Oh, goodness, no! Censorhsip is an abomination.
I’m not saying that the *book* is responsible at all, but that certain personality types are more vulnerable to excesses of devotion, and that when they come across a book/film/politician/philosophy that they feel “speaks” to them, they will buy in to it and give up any independent or critical thinking. (Not talking about the mentally ill obsessive, here, but those who would just go overboard with the fannishness.)
The book itself is only a book. It’s the variety in reader response that interests me. Why do some texts or authors generate the kind of flame war we’ve just seen? Do some subjects attract the kind of (otherwise ordinary)people who more willingly engage in that kind of kerfluffle? I’m postulating that texts outside the mainstream will.
I appreciate your help here - I need the feedback in order to sort this out in my own head. :)
Because even if her moderate reader base isn’t active on
her MB, they’re reading ABOUT her on blogs like this one and Dylan’s.
That’s exactly the point I was trying to make. By encouraging certain types of fans (even if only by remaining silent) she’s alienating other fans, and in the long run, that could really hurt her.
The book itself is only a book. It’s the variety in reader response that interests me. Why do some texts or authors generate the kind of flame war we’ve just seen? Do some subjects attract the kind of (otherwise ordinary)people who more willingly engage in that kind of kerfluffle? I’m postulating that texts outside the mainstream will.
Personally, I think the authors themselves tend to do this. Not in all cases, but not too long ago, I put up a post about this on our site. Do authors go too far? I have to wonder if they don’t pander to the more “Overzealous” people by creating online worlds, or trying to bring their characters to life.
Hmm, I’m not sure if I explained myself very well. I suppose it just seems that this type of “rabidness” seems to happen more often with authors that really go overboard in trying to bring their characters to life.
Here’s the post I’m referring to:
http://sanctuarysbookblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/how-much-is-too-much.html
You can see what I mean there.
The thing is, Nancy Gee, Suzanne Brockmann attracts just the same type of fans and she hasn’t created the same type of world. IMO, it’s the guys. It’s all about the type of MEN that are created by the authors, not the world they inhabit. Swoon-worthy, completely alpha, completely in-charge, completely under the spell of their women--that’s what’s attracting these fans (myself included, I might add), not the silliness of Phury and completely white guys listening to rap (also guilty, I might add again, except for the guy part).
Sarah F - I’ll bow to your expertise, then, and accept that it may be the hero type evoking the fan reaction. It would certainly explain why I haven’t come across this kind of group behavior before, because I tend to avoid that kind of characterization for the male love interest.
I’ve barely dipped a toe into the romance waters, and assumed that fan etiquette would be fairly consistent throughout the genre. Apparently not!
It’s all about the type of MEN that are created by the authors, not the world they inhabit.
This was my thought, as well, Sarah. And it’s an interesting case of transference, almost, where the most intense fans adopt the extreme territorial protectiveness toward the series and the author that the Brotherhood exhibit toward their mates and their brethren. Although so many Romance readers seem to identify with the heroine, IMO this is one instance where it’s the hero who has that role—perhaps because he has so much power within the world of the novels?
BTW...WARDen & cellies? Eeeewh, please.
I’ve read the Warden / Cellies thing like a hundred times and I just got it.
Robin,
Maybe I’m defective in some way, but I’ve never identified with a heroine (okay, not true--I can remember one: SEP’s Phoebe in “It Had to be You")--I’m way more interested in the hero and in following him on his journey.
And most of my romance reading friends are the same. Identification with the heroine is just not high on our list of why we read the books.
I think this holds true for a lot of authors--or at least the ones I read--and their fan base: Linda Howard’s most zealous fans are zealous over the men ("After the Night,” “Mr. Perfect,” the Mackenzie books). Same with SEP. We don’t go all gooey over whatsername the scientist--no, we want Cal, or Bobby Tom. Hell, same with Georgette Heyer or even Austen, although to a slightly lesser degree. It’s all about Dameral (sp?) and Sylvester for me, or Darcy and Wentworth, although I’ll admit the female characters are slighty more interesting here too.
So, anyone else out the
09.24.06 at 04:54 PM |