Smart Bitches Trashy Books | All of the romance, none of the bullshit.

I unfortunately won’t put f/f in my books anymore, because having it there means the sales numbers for that title drop. It’s a noticeable difference.

I also had a reviewer once call one of my extremely brief--barely a passing mention, really--f/f moments “nauseating”. She gave the book itself a terrible review and mentioned that was one of the reasons. (And for the record, she had every right to her opinion etc. etc. etc., I’m not saying she was wrong for it or complaining, I’m just saying since you asked. Also for the record, it was nothing more than a one-paragraph scene of vibrator use, not fisting or anything.)

“someONE” was offended? What kind of business is she running that she rushes to apologize because of one or even a few complaints?

Is there bias? Evidently so! There shouldn’t be in this day and age though.

Look at the tv , The L Word is on Showtime (BIG FAN!), LOGO is succeeding well, the gay and lesbian community has a voice now unlike any other time in history. For this online store to take the moral high road over lesbian erotica when they had no problem selling other types of erotica is blatantly hypocritical.

Let them go to PG13, they’ll change their minds when their sales start to go south. It’s customers should be vigilant in emailing the owner on any books that pass the PG13 criteria. If they’re going all Falwell then someone needs to monitor them and make sure they don’t sell ANYTHING offensive.

Maybe their 13 and under audience spend more money there than one would think? lol

I hope your book does well. Beautiful cover on it!

(sorry for my grammatical errors, I couldn’t remember what the possessive of “IT” is. In my defense I’ve been out of school for 100 years.)

I’m confused (and apparently, very naive).  Are the same people who are willing to read m/m erotica objecting to f/f erotica?  Why would one be less objectionable or more acceptable than the other?

My impression was that people were positively blase’ about lesbian love. One of Jennie Crusie’s books had a f/f kiss, for crying out loud, though it didn’t go anywhere, and it’s gotten to be a pretty regular thing on cable TV shows of every stripe

Also, although my local independent bookstore doesn’t have a romance section, they do have an erotica section, and it is probably 50% lesbian erotica.

So yes, color me confused, too.

This topic comes up occasionally on my author loops.  Several authors I know would love to write a f/f story, but the publishers (of erotic romance) always repeat that it doesn’t sell.  It’s barely worth the author’s time, let alone the editor, cover artist, etc etc.

Why was this, we asked last time.  When a reasonable proportion of authors wanted to write--and by extension, read--it, why not the general readership?  The thing is that m/m erotica sells really well, and to a readership that’s largely female--despite received wisdom and reader feedback suggesting women like to read books where they can put themselves in the heroine’s place.  Clearly, this can’t be the case for a m/m book.

The only conclusion we could come to was that readers didn’t want to read about women having sex with each other, because if they enjoyed reading about it, that might men they’d enjoy doing it, and that might make them lesbians.  It’s okay to read about gay men, because there’s a distance factor, and besides, straight women are allowed to fantasise about men, whether said men are straight or gay.

Whether that conclusion was right or not we didn’t know.  Maybe as erotica authors we just have fewer boundaries to worry about.  The bottom line was--well, the bottom line.  If readers won’t buy it, publishers won’t publish it.  Which does sort of prevent it ever becoming mainstream.

I’ve written f/f scenes in a couple of books (although not as the main focus).  A reviewer on one book made a point of warning readers about it, as if it was a habit to turn people’s stomachs, like admiring Hitler or dissecting live puppies.  Reader feedback on the idea of a f/f book has brought up such reactions as “It makes me feel sick.”

But you know what homophobia really says about you, right?

I’m confused (and apparently, very naive).  Are the same people who are willing to read m/m erotica objecting to f/f erotica?

Yes.  Yes they are.

@ Darelene

Has this company released any M/M fiction? It’s not clear from the list of titles I see, and I’m not *quite* gutsy enough to go surfing their webpage at my all-internet-traffic-is-monitored workplace ;-) The fact that they mention gay erotica that is *forthcoming* (as opposed to stuff that is already out there) makes me think that maybe the fact that it’s chick on chick is incidental, and the real issue is that it’s the author/publisher’s first same-sex release.

Can anybody access the website and verify this?

I am sad to say this doesn’t surprise me.  LGBT is shelved in its own “ghetto” in most bookstores; given that AA books are generally shelved separately as well, PURPLE PANTIES had two strikes against it.

I’ve published quite a number of lesbian erotica stories (as Elspeth Potter), and in all but one store, those anthologies were shelved with the GLBT material or in a separate section of the erotica books.  (The exception, a college bookstore, had the erotic anthos shelved indiscriminately among the other lit anthos.) In my experience, and I live in a large city, readings and those sorts of events take place only at GLBT or feminist bookstores, or at non-bookstore events specifically marketed as erotica readings.  I remember once, maybe ten years ago, a joint reading of BEST GAY and BEST LESBIAN EROTICA in my local Borders, and that’s it.  I’d like to know if other peoples’ experiences vary.

Here’s hoping the extra publicity gives PURPLE PANTIES lots of sales!  I remember the call for submissions; it sounded like a good idea, and I was bummed to be on deadline and unable to submit.

Coming at this from a fandom perspective, I can tell you that the same people who adore m/m slash fic object deeply to f/f and (often) to m/f. One of the underlying reasons is this pervasive sense that “girl parts are icky.”

And online, fic-centered fandom is something like 90% female.

I am not saying that’s entirely the case here, though I am sure that it’s part of it. We are not taught to love our bodies as beautiful. Society perpetuates ideas of women’s bodies as unclean, icky, whatever. (Well, not women’s bodies. That’s not true. I mean women’s *genitals*.) So there’s a certain internalized misogyny that I think we’re not even aware of.

And then there’s the fact that if you’re a straight woman, what’s hotter than a nekkid man? TWO nekkid men! I think it’s honestly the exact same thing as straight men’s fascination with lesbians. This is much less sinister than the other explanation, but I think both are true.

I don’t see any more problem with f/f than with m/m.  I personally won’t buy or read either form, since it’s just not my thing. I suppose that means I have hangups. That’s fine. I don’t jam my preferences down anyone’s teeth, and I won’t allow you to jam yours down mine.

How come, though, one person’s preferences are fine-and-dandy, and mine are hangups? Just curious.

When I worked in the library in the 95% AA city, we could not keep Zane and the street lit on the shelf--it was constantly checked out/vanishing, and rather indiscriminately read. I think Zane’s right on the money when she alludes to the idea that it’s not the style but the f/f content and homophobia that it causing the fuss. And that she can write heterosexual erotica and no one would bat an eye.

This doesn’t surprise me, it’s been the story (in my case for m/m) since I started to write.

It doesn’t sell, there’s no market, no-one’s interested in it, it can’t be put into shops, RWA find it offensive, You name it, I’ve heard the excuses.

I was hoping that things were changing, too. *makes face*

There is a HUGE difference between objecting to f/f fiction and just not being interested in it. I don’t understand the former, if there no objections to m/m stories, it boggles my mind that a cry would be raised objecting to f/f stories.

I fall squarely in the latter category- f/f just doesn’t interest me.  And no, I’m not afraid that, as has been commented on previously, I will discover I’m a lesbian. I can appreciate looking at a beautiful woman, but in much the same way that I can appreciate a beautiful horse, or a mountain, or a sunset. Therefore I cannot relate to the attraction between the characters in a f/f story because I am not attracted to either of them.

However, since I am attracted to men, I can easily empathize with the attraction between the characters in a m/m story.  And, as Snarkhunter said, it’s two nekkid men… what’s NOT to be attracted to?

I’m a straight woman, and I have to say I find f/f boring.  I also have no idea what the fuss is over m/m.  I can’t stand slash, but I think my real gripe with it is slash fanfic, because of its forcible aspect: quite often characters who are not gay are turned gay solely for the purposes of the author’s amusement.  I take issue with that because it’s not who they are and the author is appropriating someone else’s (even a fictional someone) sexuality for their purposes.  Fic written about a gay character getting it on with a member of the opposite sex makes me feel the same way.  (I’m looking at you, Nuriko.  You’re not in love with Miaka.  You’re gay as hell.)

But it’s anger over that appropriation of sexuality that alternately stems from and fuels my frothing at the mouth about stuff like this.  Someone else’s sexuality, simply put, is not yours, and as such you have no right to control it, limit it, or censor it in any way.  Where does this country get off, I wonder, squicking so hard about anybody’s harmless, personal sexual indulgence and expression?

Termagant 2, your reading preferences are not hangups at all, and if someone you know/spoke to or something you read somewhere suggests that they are so, that’s wrong. Your preferences are your own and it doesn’t suggest or insinuate a hangup at all.

I don’t read m/m or f/f either. It’s nothing to do with disgust, not at all. It’s about disinterest; it’s not what floats my boat when it comes to reading (I do indulge in some m/f/m though). Yes, I’m probably a typical gal in that I find the idea of m/m more on the hot, kinky side, and I’ve even found some women to be extremely attractive, but the latter more in the sense of admiration, not attraction. Bottom line is, just because it’s a more controversial subject matter, if you don’t read it, it does not mean you or anyone else naturally has a “hangup” on said subject matter. Unless a person comes out and says so, it’s asinine for anyone to jump to that conclusion.

My first reaction to Zane’s letter was one of extreme annoyance. So a few complain of being offended and once again the rush to action is to censor/discriminate in some way the purveyor of the “questionable” material? What a freaking joke! This country is just way too crazy in the sense that a few whiners complaining get more respect and acknowledgment than the general concept of having enough common sense to realize we’re not all the center of the universe and everyone is entitled to that opinion. So OK, some didn’t like the sound of Zane’s f/f story, that’s understandable because we’re all different. No big deal. Others will like it. It comes, it goes. Move on, say your piece and move on. One-sided opinions shouldn’t be the ending, deciding factor in something like this.

But holy crap, to ban all erotic books on this online mag as a result of a few not liking f/f? That’s just astounding to me. I’m wondering what the thoughts of the magazine employee were at the time.

Even though I don’t read f/f and probably never will (snort, NO, I’m not afraid there’s some inner lesbian just waiting to jump out. Now THAT is a joke), I hope Zane’s book does well, and from the tone of the letter, it seems it is.

I definitely think part of this is the phallocentrism of sexual fantasy books sold to women—even in erotica, in other words, there must be at least one “hero.”

BUT, I also don’t completely trust that publishers have the accurate pulse on reader desires, especially when you think that in print publishing they are trying to predict a year or two out.  Although if they’ve already got a market that’s growing and selling like crazy (I had to correct that from “swelling” lol), like m/m, I can see where they would have no interest in expending some effort to grow an f/f market, as well.  Whenever I hear “readers don’t want that,” I always translate that into “publishers are making plenty of money the way things are,” instead.

We are not taught to love our bodies as beautiful. Society perpetuates ideas of women’s bodies as unclean, icky, whatever. (Well, not women’s bodies. That’s not true. I mean women’s *genitals*.) So there’s a certain internalized misogyny that I think we’re not even aware of.

Thank you, Snarkhunter. That’s just what I was thinking. I’ve been thinking alot about how insidious misogyny is and it is issues like this that remind me how much it affects us, even when we think it doesn’t.

The sad part is that there are religious groups out there who marshal volunteers to write complaining letters by the hundreds when books like this are published. Generally, none of those writing the complaining letters have even seen one of these books before; they just want to make sure this type of book is kept off the shelves, so nobody can have access to it.

It’s common enough, and smaller booksellers and reviewers are far more likely to be influenced because they haven’t been subjected to this form of censorship before. Larger corporations like amazon and Chapters have seen it before, and generally know enough to ignore it.

I *think* (and I’m sure I’ll hear if I’m wrong), that when some commenters refer to “hang-ups” about f/f, or suggest that fearing it (homophobia) may suggest fearing that you actually would like it (teh horrors!), they don’t mean Termagent 2, phadem or Ri L.  There’s nothing wrong with reading what you like and avoiding what doesn’t do it for you, and I don’t think anyone here means to suggest otherwise.

Where we get into hang-ups and homophobia, IMO, is where people seem determined to enforce their reading preferences on others (which I’m not hearing from anyone in this thread, but which is exactly what Zane seems to be facing).  It’s the judgmental attitude that says a book is bad because it has f/f sex in it, while straight sex is okay.  I think when it is some kind of moral judgment that results in real or attempted censorship, a line has definitely been crossed.  Is that sad?  Hell yeah.  Surprising?  Not in the good ol’ US of A, I’m afraid—especially not in some parts of it.

My sense, as a reader and an observer rather than a writer, is that the weird area here is in the industry, where m/m is okay but f/f isn’t.  That certainly could be homophobia, if the people making the judgments are female.  Mostly it gets presented as a market perception: “it doesn’t sell; female readers (the overwhelming demographic) don’t buy it.” That market perception could certainly lead to a publisher, or a bookseller, avoiding f/f books and it could lead a reviewer to extend her personal distaste for f/f erotica to a “warning” in a review ("I don’t like it personally, my perception of the market is that most readers don’t like it, so I will warn them it is there").  But avoiding publishing it or labeling it as “icky” (as a general judgment, rather than a “not to my taste, could be yours” kind of way) could also be lesbian-specific homophobia, too—humans are really good at justifying biased behavior with other motivations.

Certainly there’s a “last frontier” feel about this—mainstream books have become more steamy, m/m has gone from taboo to hot taboo, and it isn’t hard to find bondage, slash, whatever in a lot of bookstores.  Is f/f the next big thing?  Will publishers be slow to realize that, but eventually jump on the bandwagon?  Is there no market for f/f because one hasn’t been allowed to develop?  More questions than answers.

Me, I like a good romance regardless of the race, gender, and sometimes even species of the participants!  It’s an emotional thing, more than a sexual one, to the extent that I can separate the two.  I just tend to like longer story arcs and complicated relationships, so I don’t usually buy short fiction anthologies.  I celebrate the diversity of what entertains and excites my fellow beings, and hope that changing technology will continue to make a wider variety of books available (ebooks, self-pubs, the lot).  Then if f/f sells, the bandwagon will start up, I’m sure.  Meanwhile, I’m going to be looking for some f/f romance, preferably with strong plot elements and a relationship that really has time to develop.  Suggestions??

I haven’t read any m/m or f/f, at least not in the erotic romance category, but I think I prefer f/f. 

I wrote a historical romance with an f/f subplot and was told to cut it before submitting to editors.  The book still didn’t sell, probably for other reasons (like, historical accuracy, cringe).

Although I really don’t understand the fascination for m/m, neither do I get why anyone would be disgusted by f/f.  Girl parts are “icky”?  Um, even our own? 

I’m considering doing an f/f subplot in my next project, a romantic suspense.  I’d like to see if I could get away with it.  Perhaps part of the reason for the bias is just unfamiliarity.

The only title I’ve had in my catalogue that has faced any real controversy has been Wicked Temptation, which includes a brief M/F/F and M/M scene. To me it seems relatively tame now, but right after it’s release, I received emails from some readers who called it disgusting, as well as reviews that labeled it as “disturbing”, “disappointing”, “too dark”, and even the dreaded and generic “not my cup of tea”.

An acquaintance contacted me privately not long after the first batch of reviews for W/T, (at a time when I was really down from all the “not for me” commentary) and she told me not to take it personally, but the f/f scene really bothered her. This struck me as odd at the time, since I knew that particular reader reviews m/m romances.

I did a little research after that, and all I can gather is that f/f is simply not as acceptable as m/m. Who knows why that is?  Quite a few men I know will watch two women together, but not two men, and that’s the kind of vibe I get when I ask about f/f. Then again, who am I to try and pick apart the psychology behind it?  If a person doesn’t read it, they don’t.

Whatever the case, I have noticed recently a shrinking market for lesbian and femme dom material. One of my publishers is no longer accepting lesbian romance, and another company I was thinking of submitting to has placed a small tag on their website that says they are not accepting femme dom anymore. I can only guess that is in reflection of poor sales, but of course, I have no data to base that on. Whatever the case, I’ve suspended a series because I don’t know who would take the story if I finished it.

My hat’s off Zane for fighting the good fight with this one. I’m interested to see how this one plays out.

He? What’s this about society and a negative view of female genitalia? I don’t know the statistics on porn (online and otherwise) marketed mostly to males, but unless I’m missing something, they seem to do quite well. As for a phallocentric romance community, isn’t that because statistically, most women are straight? I don’t think that f/f books should be banned. I’m not homophobic, and I’m not hung up on much of anything. I’m just straight and uninterested if f/f books. I don’t want to be called repressed or whatever for that. It works both ways, folks.

And then there’s the fact that if you’re a straight woman, what’s hotter than a nekkid man? TWO nekkid men! I think it’s honestly the exact same thing as straight men’s fascination with lesbians. This is much less sinister than the other explanation, but I think both are true.

I think both are true, too, since the above would be more likely to make a woman go “Lesbians, meh” than “Eeew, lesbians, that’s just sick”.

Me, I like a good romance regardless of the race, gender, and sometimes even species of the participants!  It’s an emotional thing, more than a sexual one, to the extent that I can separate the two.

I’ve said elsewhere, gender means little to me, although I really do enjoy well-written f/f (or m/m, or m/f, or various permutations of them all). If I can become emotionally involved in the characters and their journey, the sex is gonna do it for me, regardless of the number of tabs or slots.

There are f/f scenes in my first book (already out), and in the second (due to release in August), and in the third (a m/f/f tentatively slotted for October). I know finding reviewers willing to even look at them, let alone give them a chance, is going to be an uphill battle, even though two of those three novels are het romances at heart.

And I just find the attitude surprising, considering the popularity of shows like the L-word. I can understand not reading it because it doesn’t float your boat, but to be an avid consumer of m/m and then turn around and be offended by f/f is so hypocritical I can’t even find the appropriate word for it.

I hope Robin is right and there’s an untapped market out there ready to take off, because the few times I have gone looking specifically for f/f or even m/f/f erotic romance (rather than erotica) there has been a dearth of it. You end up wading through a morass of m/m to find one or two titles that may or may not be of decent quality. If authors won’t write what they would love to write for fear of reviewers flaying them, or readers shunning and denigrating them, I find that sad. As in December’s case, it’s one thing to not like a book, and to say so. To warn others away from it because of content that may not even offend them is something else again.

One of the underlying reasons is this pervasive sense that “girl parts are icky.”

And online, fic-centered fandom is something like 90% female.

Wow, that’s just depressing. Now, I’m not sexually attracted to girl parts, but it makes me sad to think that that many women find parts of themselves “icky”.

I’m just straight and uninterested if f/f books. I don’t want to be called repressed or whatever for that. It works both ways, folks.

Pretty sure no one would call you repressed, Ciar! What people are saying is homophobia can be gender-specific. No one’s criticizing anoyone for not being interested in f/f. Just for the attitude that “m/m=fine, hot, yay!, but f/f=nasty and gross, offends me, no one should be writing it, f/f content automatically=bad book”.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that society is much less likely to accept or appreciate female sexuality in general - unless there’s a man involved somewhere.

What’s this about society and a negative view of female genitalia? I don’t know the statistics on porn (online and otherwise) marketed mostly to males, but unless I’m missing something, they seem to do quite well

(Quick disclaimer: have never seen porn. My only glimpse was a few minutes of a lesbian porn accidentally seen in a hotel room when I was 12.) My guess is that a lot of “mainstream” porn is sanitized in certain ways, but I think porn is a slightly different animal than what we’re talking about here. It’s already taboo and is *meant* to be a little shocking or whatever.

“Girl parts are icky” is an attitude that is promoted by feminine “deoderants” (the ones designed for the nether regions, rather than the armpits), by the recent influx in baby-wipe style “cleansing cloths” marketed at women, and by the emphasis on “cleanliness” that one can see in some men’s discourses. (I remember reading an article about the prevalance of an insistence on “clean” women in online dating ads.) Waxing is promoted as the only way to go (pubic hair? HORRORS. <--shades of Ruskin, there). And “vagina” is a dirty word, while “penis” can be said on prime time.

So, yeah. I think women’s genitalia ARE marginalized, and, again, I know for a fact, having actually seen people say this, that in the fic communities, many slash fans are literally *disgusted* by women’s genitals...even though they themselves are women. Men don’t seem to have this same reaction. (Though I can think of this one fic, by a man, featuring a m/m/f (or m/f/m, depending on the characters’ moods!), where the female character always wiped herself with a little disposable cloth, and there was all this discussion of her “taste” and how she did it for health reasons. Never mind that those things actually increase the chance of infection.

Look, even on the online erotic epubs are starting to turned down f/f romances. They don’t sell very well. But as to why it is being rejected so soundly AFTER it’s been published, I’m not quite sure. Very strange indeed.

snarkhunter, I’ve heard both ‘penis’ and ‘vagina’ used on tv, so I don’t know what shows you’re watching....i would actually say men’s genitalia in movies is the thing that is ‘taboo.’ Some how if the penis is erect, you get slapped with an X rating. But bare breasts can be shown all over the place. There is rarely a film with any kind full frontal male nudity...it does exist, but naked women by far outnumber the naked men.

I would have been able to take the whole thing more seriously if they hadn’t taken the opportunity to mention every book they’re going to release in the near future.

I also had a reviewer once call one of my extremely brief--barely a passing mention, really--f/f moments “nauseating”. She gave the book itself a terrible review and mentioned that was one of the reasons.

The more I think about this, the more it bugs me. If I reviewed books, I would avoid reviewing, asy, BDSM romances because they usually don’t appeal to me and I personally find some of the stuff in them objectionable. As I know others do not feel that way, I would leave the reviewing of those types of books to them. Likewise, I would not hesitate to rec a book that was good, even if one or two scenes hit me in some personal soft spot. I might mention in a review that “This scene is not my type of thing, but it was competently written, and those who enjoy it would enjoy this book because of it”.

To pan a book because of one paragraph of f/f just makes me think this person should not be reviewing books at all.

Not to mention, how could a woman (granted, not any of the women here, from the comments) find women’s genitals icky, but think a man’s (or anyone’s) butthole is clean? Shaking my head.

Karma is certainly a bitch.  Back in 2006, Zane wrote a long-arsed rant re the Millenia Black case, and she felt it was ok to publically slap Black down for trying to sue Penguin for discrimination.

Next time, she might be a bit more sympathetic methinks.

I’m with Cat and Kirsten (I hope I spelled that right) and Cora...Frankly I’d rather read f/f than m/m but that’s MY preference. I think there’s a market for it but it’s small (and maybe in teh closet). Lucky for me, Kensington didn’t blink when I threw some f/f action at ‘em LOL
I’d love to do another....but it’s not on my radar right now.

LOL My verification word is Police67

Color me confused as well.  At the VERY VERY FRONT of a local Borders Books and Music there was a looong isle of black fiction that included erotica.  It backed right up to the next row which was the latest sci-fi/ fantasy which is why I noticed that there was a HUGE section of erotica.  Specifically lesbian.  It had a shadowy group of gals on the front doing whatever.  So if Borders will sell that.  Why not this one?

There are also numerous erotica anthologies that have lesbians and are for lesbians in this Borders.  I checked out a different Borders and it did not have the same display.  However one was in an urban area and the other (without) was a more suburbia based bookstore.  The erotica section in BOTH stores was ample.  And it was not in the back behind a curtain of shame.

As for people being less comfortable with f/f than m/m welllllll.... I liken it back to the whole Japanese manga ideal.  That it’s written not with gay men in mind, but FOR women to fantasize those men as women.  That the gender bending isn’t really bending.  It’s more of a lean toward the woman being able to associate herself as either of the effeminate men.

That’s not to say that all writers write with that in mind.  But that’s kind of how I look at it.  The f/f has typically been the domain of the male fantasy and these books are FOR WOMEN GODDAMNIT!  They will protect their HEA fantasies!  Whether it’s super kink or vanilla as can be, they don’t want it touched by a traditional male fantasy.  Which makes me giggle.

Two things:

Snarkhunter: amen. I think you are 100% on the money. Women are taught in a hundred subtle and insidious ways that our girl parts are icky and it starts when we’re two young to even know what we’re learning. I see this in action in my youngest stepdaughter who is repulsed by seeing the female nude form--as in classical paintings in my bathroom or the rare occasion when her sister or myself dashes through the house on a hunt for dry bras from the laundry room. She’s already received the message loud and clear--women’s bodies are gross--and she’s in no hurry to grow up and look like us. (And her sister has the cutest figure in the world, so there’s certainly nothing icky about the way she looks.)

F/F erotic romance: There is definitely a bias against f/f books. As December said I’ve seen numerous reviews slamming a story for simply having a scene of f/f interaction, let alone a major or minor plot line involving female lovers. It seems clear to me that f/f is not as accepted as m/m, and I’m inclined to agree with the internalized misogyny camp.

Anna J. Evans

I have a 10-year-old daughter...so I think I have some expertise in how a girl feels about a woman’s body...it’s a weird time. Can no one remember how embarrassing it was to go from flat-chested girl with no body hair to boobs and all kinds of stuff growing in new places?  I don’t think girls are taught to be repulsed by their own naked bodies. I think it is just the whole embarrassment of acknowledging what is going to happen to them eventually.

Just like kids turning away from the tv screen when people kiss...it’s not really ‘gross’ per se, but embarrassing to think of men and women engaged in some kind of sexual activity.

I’ve NEVER had a woman in my life say that her naked body or genitals was gross or disgusting. In fact, most of my college friends and I used to think why were women’s naked bodies so beautiful - curvy and secretive - while men’s body were really kind of odd with that ‘thing’ hanging out down there.

My daughter just went through one of those ‘health’ classes at school. There was no speech about girls’ changing bodies being gross or disgusting...only something new and wonderful. But with that change...which unlike boys going through puberty...comes the embarrassment of the outward signs of it. Breasts being the most apparent physical manifestation, which is impossible to hide.

I have sympathy for the publishers who have to think in terms what will sell and what won’t. They can’t always go out on a limb and publish something that right now isn’t popular. Publicists and bookstores have to make the same considerations.

But wasn’t it the same with m/m not so long ago? Personal preferences aside, the industry would listen more if they saw the kind of sales with f/f the way they started to with m/m. Who knows what the future will bring?

As far as female genitalia being considered icky or dirty because of feminine hygiene products, you have a point. But do women really use them all the time? Those personal cleansing cloths are nice for when the red river is flowing or when the little yeasties have a party. Pregnancy also wreaks havoc on the vagina’s biochemical balance, as do certain medications and illnesses. We have an obsession not for feminine cleanliness, but for cleanliness in general. Body odor, no matter it’s source, is not viewed very positively.

There are just as many smell-good-not-bad products out there for men as well as women and I’d bet that the only reason that someone hasn’t come up with a bestselling product to make male genitalia smell appealing is because their plumbing is external and they can wash it easily.

I’m with many of these others who say that f/f erotica or romance, either one, leaves me flat, while I can totally get into the m/m variety. I’m straight. I like men. That said, I’m not going to say that the f/f variety shouldn’t exist or try to prevent its publication. I’m not going to go out of my way to buy it, though, since it really doesn’t do anything for me. And since I suspect the majority of readers--who are also female and straight (lesbians are still a numerical minority)--are doing the same thing, publishers are going to buy less f/f erotica--or romance--than the other varieties. Women read most of the books, remember? Guys like pictures, which is doubtless why there are so many boobs, etc. in the movies.

That said, I have read a f/f romance. I was recently shipped four books to read for a contest. One was a series romance published by the series romance monolith company. One was a small press male-written romance. One was a hardback British paranormal-romancy-mystery-thing, and one was a f/f romantic suspense. I read the series romance first, since it was a known quantity, and of the expected “good read” quality. The f/f story made me nervous--I’d never read one before, didn’t know how I would react to it, so I put it off and slogged through the small press book.

Lordy, Lordy was it TEDIOUS. And preachy. And rather offensive in its lecturing. And it had a horrible, total crap ending. I didn’t give it a very good mark--and I should have marked “Not a romance,” but I didn’t. Then I read the spooky book about metaphysical witches and dragged myself through the endless murky moody descriptive muck. The language was often lovely and lyrical, but very little actually Happened, which is not my favorite thing, and the ending was tragically obscure and might have been romantic, maybe, if it had been a leetle clearer. I didn’t mark it “not a romance” either, and probably should have. Then I took a deep breath and picked up the romantic suspense.

And found a crisp, tightly written romantic suspense bodyguard-protectee story. I’ve been looking for the title and author (who is also a journalist, so no wonder it’s well written), so I could share it with you, and don’t have the book or any references here at my work. Honestly, it was the best book of the bunch and I scored it higher than the series romance. That said, I still won’t go out looking for f/f romance, because I missed the hard pecs and manly shaft...but it proves the point that a good book is a good book, even if the action doesn’t necessarily float your boat (so to speak).

THAT said, I’ve heard for years that fem dom doesn’t sell and publishers won’t buy it. Well, nobody ever tried to sell it to me. I’d really love me some good fem dom erotica--THE SWITCH by Diane Whiteside is as close as I’ve ever been able to find. So if anybody has any to recommend, Please DO. K Thx.

*Off to buy Wicked Gentleman m/m fantasy mystery romance thing that was in the DA BWAHA competition, cause I do like me some hot men*

Sorry for all the longwindedness…

Codeword: well31 I have dug myself 31 feet deep into this well…

I was shocked when I learned that the Victorian(?) era term “bosom buddies” referred to a quasi-lesbian relationship (the term has, of course, evolved over time). It was women practicing marriage on other women, baby, and it’s why my alma mater (a women’s college) has been having a drag ball since the 1800s, even when it was a religious institution. Though sex per se may not have been involved, there was sure as hell romance.

That being said, it’s probably no surprise that I’m fine with f/f and m/m and whatever else you want to throw at me (eew...okay, please don’t throw it at me...). Whenever an instance like this comes up, I’m always reminded of the episode of South Park where Cartman walks naked across a stage, and the audience in front of the stage reacts to his nudity with terrible shock and outrage...even though the boys had been beating the crap out of each other with real weapons right in front of that same audience. U.S.A., thy name is hypocrisy.

But yeah - just remember what “bosom buddy” actually meant next time you read your favorite piece of classic literature…

I find myself terribly saddened the we women (yes that would be the royal we) find our own anatomy “gross” or “dirty”. I know that I felt that way not long ago, and am thankful that I came into myself after a fashion. It saddens me that we know so little about our own bodies (relate back to discussions on hymens). When I think about these issues, it reminds me of a discussion in sex ed in middle school (which was really just a lesson on why we would get our periods, and how to use a tampon) where the teacher said “boys don’t get the same discussion because boy parts are on the outside, and they discover them as soon as they can move their hands. Girls have to be taught where their parts are, why they have them, and how to deal with them.” < roll eyes here>. While I understand what the teacher was trying to say, I am still disturbed because the talk only glazed over issues, and really propagated the “ick factor” instead of relieving it.

I find myself saddened that the sexuality of girls is not accepted. Now, I am not a mom, but I know that I learned nothing from my mom. All I knew was sex causes pregnancy, and I should remain a virgin until I married .  Whereas my husband’s father handed him his first playboy at age ten.  I’m not sure we should be handing girls vibrators at 12.... but surely there is some middle ground.

I find myself saddened that it seems like each sex cannot accept homosexual relations amongst their own. Guys seem ok with F/F and women seem Ok with M/M.... but not vise versa. Someone already mentioned the “2 is better than 1” theory that I heard over and over in college.

I am truly saddened by a conversation with my dad a week ago, after a Greys Anatomy episode. He vented about being frustrated by network TV having an “agenda” to make homosexuality appear to be a societal norm. My point… that it is a norm. It has always existed, so why should it not be accepted? “Keep[ing] it out of the street so it won’t scare the horses” is no longer an acceptable solution.

Sad.  I read mostly M/F and M/M romance, but I’ve read quite a few F/F romances and while they’re not my first choice, I certainly don’t avoid them.  I don’t see anything disturbing, dirty, or uncomfortable about F/F romance.  Emma Holly writes great F/F scenes.  I wonder if she had this kind of trouble selling her books.  The Black Lace imprint has tons of F/F content, and I see them all the time on mainstream romance shelves.  What’s the difference?  I’ve always wondered why the M/M market is booming, but people still seem to have such a problem with F/F.  I wish I knew the answers.

How come, though, one person’s preferences are fine-and-dandy, and mine are hangups? Just curious.

I don’t think it’s considered a hang-up unless you are trying to shove your preference on to someone else or use that preference to sensor/ repress others.

I think both are true, too, since the above would be more likely to make a woman go “Lesbians, meh” than “Eeew, lesbians, that’s just sick”.

Not necessarily. I think my husband is a typical male where sex is concerned. He likes to watch f/f, but gets really squicked by m/m. We’ve discussed threesomes and he’s all for f/f/m, but against m/m/f. He’s not the least bit comfortable with homosexuality where it pertains to men, but has no problem with it when it pertains to women. I think some women are like that as well.

I am gazing into my own personal Marketing crystal ball, (I predicted the paranormal and fantasy boom in 1996 in the local RWA newsletter so my balls are pretty good!) And I predict that the f/f m/m etc market will begin to expand in five years or so and will continue to grow to a pretty fair plateau.

Here is the deal. I have a 19 year old neice and got to hear (ENDLESSLY my poor auntie ears!) about her friends’ sexual exploits. (they might not talk about their own, but gossip endlessly about others) a surprising number of her buddies tried the other side of the street or thought about it. They will not have the same attitude as readers that are holding the genre back right now.

I think the IDEA of same gender sexuality will become rather commonplace and the market will expand to the level it should actually represent.

Two caveats: Lesbian fiction and f/f sex are NOT the same thing. One is cutlural and the other isn’t. I even predict ‘sweet’ Lesbian romance becoming a fairly hot item.

It sort of follows the timeline of other romance. Sweet sells first then sensual, sort of dinner before the kiss.

The other caveat:  The market superstar. Somewhere out there is someone who can write a lesbian romance so good that straights will enjoy it even if they skip over the sex scenes. (I know a TON of middle aged ladies who do that with overly spiced romances now.)

Writing is about STORY. From literature to porn, a good story draws readers. The best example is that wordy but still VERY hot
Fannie Hill. Now over a hundred and fifty years old- that dangerous lady has a new edition due out in June ‘08

My point is, don’t throw out those MS. They may yet find a home.

I have to say, the reason I don’t find F/F romances/erotica appealing is because I associate the images with porn, and, fairly or unfairly, I probably expect the quality of the writing to be approximately the same.

I am also not crazy about explicit covers of any romances/erotica, whether “normative” or not, because makes me less likely to read the book (I fear the cover image is overcompensating, in an attempt to hide bad, unsexy writing).

OMG I just did the math! Fannie Hill is actually 260 years old this year!

I am sad to say this doesn’t surprise me.  LGBT is shelved in its own “ghetto” in most bookstores; given that AA books are generally shelved separately as well, PURPLE PANTIES had two strikes against it.

But wouldn’t that be immaterial? My experience has been that the “erotica” thing trumps them all; most mainstream bookstores I’ve been in like to segregate the sexy stuff even more than the identity-based stuff. So all erotica would go together, possibly with sections within the erotica area depending on the store.

snarkhunter expressed everything I was feeling and didn’t know how to say...someone said that they had never heard a woman or girl say their parts are icky - but I think that’s just a symptom of the problem. How many women grow up NEVER discussing or mentioning anything about their genitals except perhaps, when their mother first shows them pads/tampons? On the other hand, guys are forever talking about their equipment, naming it, etc...it’s commonly known and more or less ‘accepted’ that guys masturbate, but how many young women would admit to ever touching that part of their bodies except during their periods?

You may see more nude women than men on TV and in movies, but have you EVER seen an actual vagina? Most women’s pubic hair covers it if you’re standing up, and even if it’s shaved, there’s not much to see unless she has her legs open.  But there have been a few penises shown in mainstream media.

Anyways, though neither m/m or f/f interest me, I’m sure there’s a market for it, however ‘niche’, so any excuses of that nature ring totally false to me.

I don’t write lesbian or gay erotica exclusively, however, I have written and gotten published a book about swapping partners called FASCINATION STREET. There was an all out orgy scene in it, F/F scenes, M/M scenes, M/F/F scenes. You name it, it was in there. So far I’ve signed it at Waldens and Barnes and Noble without a problem. Of course, the cover of the book is way more tamer than Zane’s PURPLE PANTIES. I don’t know if that makes a difference.

BridgeT
http://www.BridgetMidway.com

From my point of view, the issue at the heart of this discussion isn’t if there is a market for lesbian sex or f/f in the romance genre.

The issue for me is that publishers are actively saying no to even receiving f/f content, or asking authors to take it out of their work.  Reviewers are actively dismissing (or worse) f/f content—not books, but paragraphs or scenes in otherwise hetero books.  And booksellers are apologizing for letting one of those pesky f/f books slip through the cracks?! 

Doing those things isn’t a matter of taste or preference, its not even a question of quality of the work itself-- its dismissing something because its lesbian. 

I makes it hard for me to believe the “no market for it” explanation when its the very forces in the marketplace which are dismissing f/f content-- the publishers, the reviewers, the authors, the booksellers.

Are the same people who are willing to read m/m erotica objecting to f/f erotica? 
--I don’t read f/f because it has the same effect on me that a cold shower does...it turns me off completely. I wouldn’t buy f/f for the same reason. Conversely, I would read m/m because it turns me on and would gladly buy it. I don’t “object” to f/f erotica per se. If people want it, they should be able to get it, just like those of use who want stories with the h/h ending up with babies should be able to get them. I just want to know about it ahead of time so I don’t have to buy what I don’t want.

Why would one be less objectionable or more acceptable than the other?
--Why do some people really love chocolate cake and hate chocolate ice cream? People have different preferences, sexually as well as otherwise. Why should I like f/f erotica when I don’t? Why shouldn’t I like the idea of two men getting it on?

As I said before, I’m not the audience f/f writers want. I’d prefer to know about f/f content, as it would mean I wouldn’t waste my money or time on something I dislike. But if you like it, go ahead and buy it in bulk. Just don’t rail at me because I dislike it. I dislike some other romance elements that others on here adore to the max. It happens.

I can’t get over the fact that this is Zane.  Zane, for crying out loud!  The fact that there is a bookstore in the world (aside from a religious bookstore......which I assume wouldn’t sell any erotic romances) that wouldn’t sell a book by Zane is astonishing to me.  ZANE!!!  She could slap her name on an Aldi’s ad and I would have to buy 200 (150 of which would be promptly stolen......) for the library because the demand would be through the roof. 

Crazy. 

As for the f/f vs. m/m vs. m/f thing......I haven’t read any f/f books.  I can’t get excited about the m/m books because I’m too busy wondering what they’d be like with ME not with him.  :)

Seriously, not selling or hosting Zane.  Wow.

As far as readers complaining about f/f… My novels have always been heterosexual, but some of the ebooks a few years ago had a little f/f in some scenes.

The few complaints I remember receiving about a few of my books were the f/f scenes. They were playful scenes, not serious relationships. Usually the male was around somewhere. But women felt uncomfortable with the f/f part. Personally I feel more comfortable with f/f than I do with m/m for some reason, even though I have nothing against it. Now m/f/m is fun. :)

someone said that they had never heard a woman or girl say their parts are icky - but I think that’s just a symptom of the problem. How many women grow up NEVER discussing or mentioning anything about their genitals except perhaps, when their mother first shows them pads/tampons?

WORD
Girl you took the words right out of my mouth*--literally! My mother could barely tell me about my period and we NEVER discussed sex. It’s not what we’re told but what we’re shown.

*for the record I’m 38

Even my conservative 87 year old grandmother doesn’t mind reading about f/f. I pick out interesting books for her to read (she doesn’t get out too much) and recently, with a little trepidation, got her Fingersmith by Sarah Waters. It’s a beautiful story that happens to have an f/f love story in it. I didn’t tell grandma about the romance, but she asked me about it later. We talked about it and she felt the story was real and touching, not to mention a darn good story. Since then I’ve shared more Sarah Waters’ books, Karen Joy Fowler’s books and other lesbian-themed books with her. Neither of us are lesbians, but love is love. If it’s a compelling story, we’ll read it.

I have a 10-year-old daughter...so I think I have some expertise in how a girl feels about a woman’s body...it’s a weird time. Can no one remember how embarrassing it was to go from flat-chested girl with no body hair to boobs and all kinds of stuff growing in new places?  I don’t think girls are taught to be repulsed by their own naked bodies. I think it is just the whole embarrassment of acknowledging what is going to happen to them eventually.

Totally. I’m sure that’s part of it. I remember being feeling awkward about it myself...but not to the point I would burst into tears and talk about wanting to kill myself because it was so gross to grow up. (But perhaps that’s just my messed up kid, lol.)

As far as thinking women’s bodies are beautiful, I always felt that way too as did my self professed feminist girlfriends in college...yet not one of them had ever taken a mirror and looked “down there” and not one would admit to giving herself pleasure or exploring her own sexuality because that was “gross”. And I graduated form a very liberal NY school in 2000. These were recent times and girls from across the country who were so repressed and skeeved they didn’t want to explore their bodies. Only the future smut writer admitted to such things.

So anyway, not saying the points in quotes aren’t valid, but there are other POVs as well. And there are at least some of us out there who felt like the odd bird out for NOT thinking it was rather gross to be a woman. Or at least gross to be a sexual woman in touch (literally and figuratively) with her genitals :).

Anna J. Evans

I’m not entirely convinced by the argument that f/f would be found “icky” by most readers of erotic romance because it involves vaginas. The reason I’m not convinced is that even “hot” but not “erotic” romances quite often include long descriptions of the hero masturbating the heroine with his fingers or tongue, and there are plenty of descriptions of how dripping/damp/wet the heroine is getting in response to the hero. If that sort of description of female bodies/vaginas is acceptable in m/f romances, that suggests to me that the main problem that people have with f/f is not to do with the presence of descriptions of vaginas and other female body parts.

That’s not to say that some women don’t find vaginas “icky” or even women’s whole bodies “icky,” just that if large numbers of women readers don’t want to read f/f but do read m/f or m/m of an equivalent level of “hotness,” then I think it must have more to do with something about f/f that isn’t the presence of descriptions of vaginas.

[and the security word is member81, which makes me wonder if the security system has a preference for m/m orgies]

...women like to read books where they can put themselves in the heroine’s place.  Clearly, this can’t be the case for a m/m book.

But, Cat, it IS the case.  This seems real simple to me.  Men wanting men is not all that different from women wanting men.  We’re attracted to essentially the same things. 

Quite frankly, lesbian erotica is a huge turn-off for me; gay male erotica, just the opposite.  I suspect most erotic-romance readers—who are, let’s face it, largely straight women with a smattering of gay men—would rather read about the glories of hard dic