Fanningtheflames

by Candy Thursday, June 22, 2006 at 12:01 PM

Check it out, peoples: Snarking the Snarky.

Oh snap, we been snarked!

I don’t think I’ve laughed this hard in a long time, or seen so many people afraid to leave contact information.

Didn’t somebody do something similar to Mrs. Giggles a few years back?

This is almost like Ninjas vs. Pirates, but with fewer peg legs and shuriken, and more estrogen and stiletto heels. Oh, and more delusions about the stakes, since nobody sane takes Ninjas vs. Pirates seriously.

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Comments

Picture of Victoria Dahl Victoria Dahl said on...
06.22.06 at 12:51 PM |

I don’t get it. Is SnarkYou anonymous? Am I missing something here?

I was prepared from something delicious and tart, but. . . It looks like snark, but I think a key ingredient is missing. Witticism? Self-effacement? Dirty humor? Something.

Picture of Stef Stef said on...
06.22.06 at 01:20 PM |

I don’t get it either.

Oh, Victoria, what say we begin the Snarky I Don’t Get It Snark School For The Snarkily Challenged?

Where’s Robin?  She can draft the charter for us, and perhaps discuss the evolution of the word, Snark, along with pie charts and legal interpretations, cause, yaknow, I thought Snark was like porn - I know it when I see it.  Evidently, not.  I’d therefore like some guidance.  All this time, I’ve been spewing Diet Coke all over the monitor here at SB’s, not knowing that this isn’t *really* Snark.  It’s only Imitation Snark, and not that funny.

Candy and Sarah, you got some ‘splainin’ to do!!!

Picture of Victoria Dahl Victoria Dahl said on...
06.22.06 at 01:21 PM |

Oh, and btw, that rule about not ending a sentence in a preposition? Is for the weak and frightened.

And the rule about not ending a sentence in a proposition is TOTAL bullshit. (God DAMN it, I crack myself up.)

Picture of Victoria Dahl Victoria Dahl said on...
06.22.06 at 01:23 PM |

I thought Snark was like porn - I know it when I see it.

PAH-HAHAHAHA It’s terrible how many viewing hours it takes to get that right, isn’t it?

Picture of Robin Robin said on...
06.22.06 at 01:39 PM |

I’m just grateful more legal complaints aren’t filed under the CDA against some of these blog hosts.  Seriously.

Picture of Candy said on...
06.22.06 at 01:42 PM |

Yeah, SnarkYou is anonymous, though there has been some rampant speculation about which author is the woman behind the curtain.

I’m interested to hear Robin’s take on this, too; I can picture her shaking her head sadly over all this snippy, snarky immaturity over inconsequentialities.

Also, Victoria: would you like come over some time and check out my big, beautiful, delicious...etchings?

Picture of Candy said on...
06.22.06 at 01:42 PM |

AND SPEAK OF THE DEVIL.

Picture of Victoria Dahl Victoria Dahl said on...
06.22.06 at 01:43 PM |

Robin, what’s the CDA?

Picture of Sallyacious Sallyacious said on...
06.22.06 at 01:45 PM |

You’re right. It’s not snarking. It’s just bitchery without the smart. Snarking is like kissing with a little bite. (Or biting with a little kiss?) That other stuff’s just biting, without the sense of fun.

I come back to sites like this because there’s a warmth in the words. I feel like I could hang out with Sarah and Candy and the other SB’s. If there was an SB convention, we’d probably spend most of our time laughing like hell.

I don’t think I’d want to spend any time at all with Snark You. And if I had to, I’d be watching for the knife.

Picture of Victoria Dahl Victoria Dahl said on...
06.22.06 at 01:46 PM |

Victoria: would you like come over some time and check out my big, beautiful, delicious...etchings?

I do know good etchings when I see them.  :coolgrin:

Picture of Robin Robin said on...
06.22.06 at 02:19 PM |

Okay, since you asked, and since it takes much less than that to get me to share an opinion, let’s see if I can even figure out what I’m thinking here, because a lot of it’s still rolling through what’s left of my mind in paradox form. 

First an easy one:  The CDA (Communications Decency Act) is part of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and was originally passed to provide protections for ISPs who were trying to create “family safe” online environments (read anti-obscenity legislation here).  To make a long story short, part of the CDA was struck down and part was amended via Section 230 (see Wikipedia entry here)
that provided what has widely been seen as extra protection for ISPs against personal tort claims (most commonly defamation type suits).  While early court decisions favored ISPs in this reading of Section 230, one court case, Barrett v. Rosenthal, is before the California Supreme Court and some expect that it will reduce insulation for ISPs from personal tort claims.  What this means practically is that people will be able to sue, say, AOL, for not taking down a comment someone claims is defamatory and provides notice to the ISP to remove.  Such a decision would potentially have consequences for everything from blog comments to feedback on eBay (check out the case Grace v. eBay) to messageboards.  Personally, I’m a little worried about what’s going to happen with the Barrett case and with free speech protection as a whole on the Internet (especially in our post 9/11 environment). But then I always worry about what’s happening with free speech protections.

As for the whole “snarkyou” thing, in concert with Karen Scott’s blog and assorted other cross-blog flame throwing, I think there’s a substantive difference between mocking covers and criticizing an author’s taste in men at funerals.  I think there’s a substantive difference between insightfully and sarcastically taking a book apart (irony and satire are two of our greatest literary weapons against political injustice and insultingly bad writing) and calling a particular author or reader a cunt.  IMO there’s a reason mean isn’t only defined as unkind but also as unsophisticated. 

Obviously people can say whatever they want and I’ll defend their right to do so.  None of us watching are without complicity in the whole deal, whether we comment on the particular blogs or not, IMO.  All of us have had our moments of inconsistency and contradiction and bad tempered comments.  The question I always ask as a reader, though, is “why”?  What’s the motive and what’s the purpose in speaking?  How I personally answer that question basically dictates how I assimilate and respond to certain information. I think there are a lot of different motives and purposes out there.  Some appear to enjoy spinning a certain issue to make it the most sensational possible, then stepping back and watching it unfurl, perhaps poking it forward now and again.  Some appear to be venting anger at god knows what in a place that feels anonymous and deserving.  Some appear to be lashing back at whatever or whoever.  Some appear to enjoy making verbal mincemeat out of others.  Some seem to be truly outraged and are just plain spitting angry.  Some appear to be too sensitive for their own public good.  Some appear to enjoy being clever while making a point they find truly compelling.  It’s all over the map, IMO.  Personally, I wish more people would ask the why question of their own comments before they post, because that whole pot and kettle syndrome can a real drag, IMO.

Picture of --E --E said on...
06.22.06 at 02:23 PM |

How to tell the difference between snark and not-snark:

Snark requires an element of “it’s funny ‘cuz it’s true.”

Snark cannot have elements of defensiveness, touchiness, or implication that the speaker has been offended. All of these are by definition the polar opposite of snark.

Snark requires cleverness. People should read it and say, “That was exactly what I was thinking, and I wish I had said it so well.”

Snark cannot contain cliches, e.g., shout from rooftops or pay for the priviledge.

Snark requires tight writing. It slips the knife in with few words.

Snark cannot contain overlong sentences swollen with false “mood”, e.g., you might want to, and give it a gander now and again.

Snark requires a specific point (which drives quickly between the ribs).

Snark cannot wander across many topics, meandering from sentence to sentence like a seventh-grader collating every other sentence from three different encyclopedia entries.

Picture of Nicole Nicole said on...
06.22.06 at 02:23 PM |

Well, my wonderful college grammar professor told us that it was perfectly acceptable to end a sentence with a preposition, especially if you were from the Midwest, where it’s an art form. :-)

And yes, no matter that I managed to get an A in grammar, that sentence sucks.

Eh, I’d say that SnarkYou is a bitter old hag who just can’t take a good snarking.  It sounds like she’s trying for dry wit, but it just isn’t working.

Picture of Robin Robin said on...
06.22.06 at 02:26 PM |

I come back to sites like this because there’s a warmth in the words.

I think real passion can lead to contentious and even sometimes offending language.  But IMO, if you sense the humanity of the person making the comments and can feel how much they actually care about anything more than making fun of someone or something else, the whole dynamic of interaction changes.

Picture of ShuzLuva said on...
06.22.06 at 02:27 PM |

It’s not snarking. It’s just bitchery without the smart.

Which is why SnarkYou is just so...poor. It’s about as enjoyable as nails across a blackboard.

Picture of lauren lauren said on...
06.22.06 at 02:34 PM |

Fuck, wonderful. Just what we need, drawing out of this situation and the beginning of endless fingerpointing and speculation.

Jeebus people, lookit ol MaryJanice, people may get all bunched up about her but she says it with her face on. I totally dig that about her.

This thing makes me angry not because I don’t see the frustration on my side (the author side) of the fence, but becuase it takes an ISOLATED thing and heats it up. Most of us get along, despite our occasional spats. But this shit just makes war. And we don’t need anymore useless wars with no exit strategies.

Picture of Anne Anne said on...
06.22.06 at 03:15 PM |

Isn’t that hilarious?  This author/person/snarky wenchbag feels compelled to speak out all about Karen and anyone else who tends to be snarky, but those people who he/she/it speaks out about could give a rats arse about anything he/she/it has to say.  Kinda like a day late and a dollar short, ya know?  It’s over.  Move on already!

Picture of rebyj said on...
06.22.06 at 03:33 PM |

ooooo snarkage!

good word to define web carnage!

Hey they rewarded you with a link on their page!

Not as nice of a reward as being dubbed by the smart bitches though.

Picture of Mrs. MJ said on...
06.22.06 at 03:46 PM |

I followed the link, and landed right back in high school! It was horrible *shiver* But seriously, I thought that when you got older...I dunno, you grew up? Matured beyond the childish games of trying to hurt someone’s feelings then run and hide, or even just doing it to make yourself feel better. I’ve never liked people that fed off of ripping others down, IMO it’s a mental illness that should be medicated.

Picture of Caryle Caryle said on...
06.22.06 at 06:28 PM |

I followed the link, and well, SnarkYou just wasn’t funny.

The reason the Smart Bitches are funny is that they never take themselves too seriously.  There’s a world of difference.

Picture of AngieZ AngieZ said on...
06.22.06 at 07:15 PM |

I’ll agree Snarkyou is not too whitty and a bit bitter, but it is fun to follow.  Kind of like rubbernecking at a car crash.  But then again it is like watching my teenagers snip at each other.

Picture of Robin Robin said on...
06.22.06 at 07:27 PM |

I followed the link, and well, SnarkYou just wasn’t funny.

It also feels to me that the firsts post was written by a different person than the second one.  I actually never thought MJD was at the helm of this so-called blog, but I’m not sure my first guess was correct, either.  It’s kind of interesting how many people are willing to hitch a ride on a runaway train when they don’t know who’s at the controls, though.

I’ve always figured that really smart people don’t have to go out of their way to make other people look stupid, and really funny people don’t have to go out of their way to make other people look inane.  Personally, I think comedian Lewis Black is one of the funniest and smartest people on the planet, and one of the reasons I love him is that he treats his audience as if they’re all in on the joke and just as smart as he is.  IMO he exemplifies the difference between angry satire and mean sarcasm.

Picture of Elizabeth Elizabeth said on...
06.22.06 at 09:01 PM |

Wait-- Ninjas vs. Pirates is not to be taken seriously?  Shit!

I’m have more difficulty than most of you, articulating my feelings about that blog.  The best I can say is that snark is a sharp stiletto.  That blog?  It’s a meat cleaver.  Or possibly a shoe.

Picture of megan said on...
06.23.06 at 05:47 AM |

This is slightly random yet related in my own head…

When a book critic for the New York Times gives a book a scathing review, do these authors jump up and retaliate?  I’ve certainly never heard of it happening.  Why then, is a bad review (or a funny one or a snarky one) on a website something that needs to be discredited?  I’ve never understood this.  Because as far as I know you don’t have to have a degree in book critique in order to review for newspapers or more respected forums (correct me if that’s wrong).

Snark You also missed the point in a huge way; authors should be allowed to defend their work and they don’t have to like bad reviews or snarky comments (although grow a sense of humor already), but its childish and pointless to say, “Shut up I hate you you can’t say that about me.” (How’s that for an awful sentence?)

Picture of sherryfair sherryfair said on...
06.23.06 at 06:37 AM |

The NY Times Book Review includes a letters section, and yes, authors are among the people who write in disagreeing with reviews that were run in previous weeks. (Usually, they are contesting a point of fact.) They run corrections, as well. So does the New York Review of Books. And the New Yorker. It’s the Old Media’s way of being interactive. Of course, blogs & message boards are already interactive by nature. What’s still developing is an etiquette of civil discourse, which seems to have been around much longer in the Old Media.

I can’t help but wonder if the “culture of saying nice things” that prevails within Romance causes the pressure to build up way, way too much sometimes. If the discussion of published Romances could manage to be as free & easy as the discussions of unpublished work that routinely occurs within Romance writers’ critique groups—then maybe some of this tension would ease off & there wouldn’t be these breakdowns in communication.

Picture of Lydia Joyce Lydia Joyce said on...
06.23.06 at 07:11 AM |

I thought the CP authors--*CP authors*--reacted with grace and humor.  An artist for CP was a bit testy, and the own/publisher completely flew of the handle, but the CP authors didn’t DO anything.  I might not agree with their tastes, but I don’t think their behavior can be faulted, and I certainly don’t think they deserve the treatment Karen gave them.  Totally uncalled for...and for no reason except sensationalism.  If anything, the authors were trying to calm things down after the owner got so upset.  Gah, and some of the responses!  I guess I remember now why I don’t visit there very often.  :-/ Karen tore me a new one when I wasn’t even the one posting a comment, and of course there wasn’t the slightest hint of apology when it was revealed that I’m not the same person as another poster.  I suppose even accuracy must bow to brilliant wit.  Or whatever.

I’m having one of those “losing-whatever-remaining-faith-I-had-in-humanity” days.  And Snarkyou isn’t helping.  It’s not that I want the world to be all nice and pink and sweet and fuzzy, but this is like taking sugary sweet hypocrisy and nasty, petty, back-stabbing that are the most hideous traits in some women and just removing the sugary sweetness.  It’s really not an improvement.  It’s downright depressing.

I like Smart Bitches because it’s, well, SMART.  The cattiness has a wink and a smile.  It’s honest and funny, even when I don’t agree with your opinions (I really don’t think most of the covers snarked are all THAT terrible--okay, they probably WOULD be terrible if romance books had had better covers in the 80s, but as it is, most choices are like shooting fish in a barrel--er, teacup), and there’s no spite or bile behind it.  The SBs aren’t playing queen bee, and they don’t seem to have issues left over from the popularity contests in high school that they’re trying to work out.  They don’t have grudges--it’s like sitting with some clever friends over a margarita (theirs, not mine--I fall asleep) and just poking fun at the world in a good-natured sort of way.  They joke about being mean, but it isn’t actually mean because it lacks the prerequisite MALICE.

I guess I’ve learned the mistake of making sincerity and honesty an assumption yet AGAIN--every time I think I’m a hopeless cynic, I discover that really I’m a delusional optimist all over again.

I guess that’s a major reason why I like my little writing cave.  Except when I’m stuck breathing the same air as the Evil Mothers from Hell at the Bear’s gymnastics class, I never really come into contact with that anymore, so I don’t always recognize it right away.  More the fool me.

I suppose I couldn’t entirely lose faith and still write what I do.  So maybe a little happy delusion is as good for my career as it is essential for my mental health.

I think today’s watchword can be summed up as “Euergh.”

*sighs*

Picture of kate r kate r said on...
06.23.06 at 07:22 AM |

Ha! Someone sent me an email asking if it’s ME.

I’m so honored, but no, it’s not. Snarking the snark, meta-snark, requires more talent than I’ve got--but see, I know that.

EAP, the SBs and probably Beth are the only people I can think of who could meta-snark enough to maintain a worthwhile blog about it. 

Sides I would have made Mrs. Giggles the first link up there. I still swoon over her essays. (not so much the reviews, although some of them are worth re-reading).

I am bitter, however. Why didn’t my attempt to have the Best of Reviews Blog attract this kind of attention?

Picture of Raina_Dayz said on...
06.23.06 at 08:02 AM |

Tearing people down to build yourself up is lame.  Hopefully this person has the memo on that now.  I have never heard of that website before but I’m not impressed at all by it.  People have already said it, but Smart Bitches has heart -and- it’s funny as hell.  Not to mention I’ve gotten a zillion fabulous book recommendations, and made tons of use of the search feature when I’m thinking of checking out a new (to me) author.

Also I used to be embarassed by my romance novel habit!  Embarassed!  I’m ashamed to admit that I didn’t do more for one of my favorite genres in the past.  Y’all legitimized my dirty habit, and I am really forever grateful.

Picture of Mistress Stef Mistress Stef said on...
06.23.06 at 08:24 AM |

I’ve already expressed my opinion on people who post anonymous rudeness, that lovely word starting with a C and ending with a T. And no, it’s not four letters.

You want to open fire, come out from behind the tree to do it. There’s no honor in sneaky snark, particularly when it’s poorly done.

Picture of azteclady azteclady said on...
06.23.06 at 08:34 AM |

Raina, the snarky blog was created specifically in response to the kerfuffle on Karen Scott’s blog a couple of days ago.

Lydia-not-anon Joyce (sorry, couldn’t resist), I agree with you that most of the authors from CP didn’t jump salty at the cover snark. Most were in fact quite civil about it.

Regarding the (un)fairness/meanness/niceness/etc of readers hurting authors’ feelings, I stand by my previous comments here, at Karen’s, Indida’s, and elsewhere (and why the hell not, since apparently I’m gonna be black listed at author’s blogs and sites for daring use the same nick wherever I happen to post).

Life is not fair, people by and large are not nice, and readers will say mean, rude, and downright mean things about books they’ve read and disliked. Should they remember that authors are people and that writing is hard work, and thus be more careful how they phrase their complaints about whatever didn’t work for them? Maybe--but then, people should be civil in all venues, and mostly they are not.

The thing is, authors make money off the readers, and the opposite is not true. It would seem common sense to me that authors should take that into account before reacting to anything in public.

Fair? Not a bit.

But that’s life for you.

On a more personal note (which I’m sure will be interpreted as sucking up by a few anons), I agree that your covers are gorgeous. I finished VEIL OF NIGHT and liked it--a lot, in fact--with a couple of minor quibbles (I’ll contact you through your website)

[spam foiler: walked98]

Picture of Arethusa Arethusa said on...
06.23.06 at 09:14 AM |

So which people are at the “popular” table in the cafeteria and can I come sit with? :) I’ve never seen the film “Mean Girls” but with each entertaining romance blog drama I feel as if I should (except it has Lindsay Lohan so....no).

Picture of Victoria Dahl Victoria Dahl said on...
06.23.06 at 09:15 AM |

Damn it, Mistress Stef, if it’s not four letters, I don’t know what it is. Cunthat? Fucking word jumbles.

I just checked out Indida’s (sp?) blog. I’m still laughing hysterically, picturing her screaming, “Write, bitches, WRITE!” HA! I think I’m gonna post that over my screen as a reminder.

And MJD may proudly use her name wherever she rants and raves, but when the hell does that woman have time to write? I picture her slowly cruising the dark streets of the vast blogworld, eyes rolling in mad pleasure as she croons, “Here, kitty, kitty. Here, kitty. Mama wants to play.”

Then again, maybe I should use my imagination to actually GET SOME WORK DONE. *sigh*

Picture of Bev (BB) Bev (BB) said on...
06.23.06 at 09:32 AM |

The thing is, authors make money off the readers, and the opposite is not true. It would seem common sense to me that authors should take that into account before reacting to anything in public.

Fair? Not a bit.

Now see, I don’t see why authors needing to monitor their behavior towards readers is supposed to be a matter of fairness in the first place. It’s a matter of business, plain and simple.

Picture of Karen Scott Karen Scott said on...
06.23.06 at 09:44 AM |

Lydia Joyce wrote:
“Karen tore me a new one when I wasn’t even the one posting a comment, and of course there wasn’t the slightest hint of apology when it was revealed that I’m not the same person as another poster

You see, this is how things get started. I never assumed that the other Lydia was you, if you can be arsed to go back and read the comments, you will see that the comments preceding mine was by another Lydia.  At no point in my post did I refer to you, and as I’m not in the habit of apologising for other people’s misconceptions, that would explain why I didn’t say sorry.

I could ask you to apologise for your misconceptions, but I’m not in the habit of doing that either. 

You also wrote:
but I don’t think their behavior can be faulted, and I certainly don’t think they deserve the treatment Karen gave them.  Totally uncalled for...and for no reason except sensationalism.

Actually, the original blog post was so bland, as to be inane, no sensationalism intended whatsoever. Shelby Morgen’s post just gave me a good subject matter for my next blog. Had she and her cronies not posted, the ensuing contretemps would have been avoided altogether.

Having re-read my second post, I think that you’ll find that actually, that was also tame, and contained mainly comments from the previous post, as well as my own brand of commentary.

Internet flame wars tend to take on a life of their own, not just because of bloggers like me, but because people are so willing to cogitate, disseminate and dissect the why’s and wherefores of the latest brouhaha. As much as you’d hate to admit it, you also play a part in fanning the flames just by putting across your point of view. The only ones who aren’t guilty of this, are the ones who say nothing.

If you don’t feed the fire, then the flames will eventually die.

Simple, no?

Picture of Shannon Shannon said on...
06.23.06 at 11:34 AM |

that lovely word starting with a C and ending with a T. And no, it’s not four letters.

Carrot?

I feel so stupid now.

Picture of Sallyacious Sallyacious said on...
06.23.06 at 11:41 AM |

Content?
Context?
Contest?

It can’t be clot or curt or cast…

:cheese:

Picture of AngieZ AngieZ said on...
06.23.06 at 11:46 AM |

cutthroat?

Picture of azteclady azteclady said on...
06.23.06 at 11:54 AM |

c-a-t

Picture of Elizabeth Elizabeth said on...
06.23.06 at 11:57 AM |

That word has me stumped!  My first thought was “cat”, but maybe it’s something closer to “Carat” or “copyright”?

Picture of Victoria Dahl Victoria Dahl said on...
06.23.06 at 12:12 PM |

Wait! I’ve got it! Chickenshit!

Word jumble, thou hast not beaten me!

Picture of Lydia Joyce Lydia Joyce said on...
06.23.06 at 12:35 PM |

>Should they remember that authors are people and that writing is hard work, and thus be more careful how they phrase their complaints about whatever didn’t work for them?

Oh, say what you want about the work (or, hey, my personality)--that isn’t my issue at all!  That, in fact, is fair.  When you publish, you invite analysis (or plain-and-simple ripping), whether you want it or not.  I’ve read books that I have wanted to shred and stomp into little bitty pieces--I don’t have problems with other people doing it, though I do have to bite my tongue when people say things about my books I find silly.  (Not when they hate them--that’s different.  I don’t get more than very mildly irritated for a very short period of time when people write things like “OH LYDIA JOYCE WHY DID YOU FORCE SUCH DRECK UPON THE WORLD?"--which is, BTW, an almost direct quote from on reader’s blog.  I get actually annoyed by things like comments that come from someone not reading the book carefully enough and then complaining about it, like in some of Harriet Klausner’s reviews.)

It was that attitudes were being assigned to people who’d never expressed them that bothered me.  This has nothing to do with being an author or not.  The CP authors weren’t ganging up.  They weren’t being nasty.  That’s the “unfair” that bothers me.  All’s fair in love and reviews, but in saying that people said/meant things they didn’t...not good.

>I agree that your covers are gorgeous.

I a weird author in that I don’t give a flying flip how accurate my covers are in details as long as A) they’re loverly and B) they get the mood right.  Mood trumps accuracy every time.  *g*

> I finished VEIL OF NIGHT and liked it--a lot, in fact--with a couple of minor quibbles (I’ll contact you through your website)

Looking forward to it!  I talked to a frequent poster at AAR about it just this morning...I’m assuming you weren’t Laura V, too?

>So which people are at the “popular” table in the cafeteria and can I come sit with?

See me?  Run away.  As fast as you can.  *g* (My table in HS table was eclectic--I was the only WASPy-type there.  We had two Brazilians, one girl from Vietnam, a half-Saudi girl whose mother converted to Islam to marry her father, a black girl, a first-gen Mexican immigrant, another from Korea...)

>I never assumed that the other Lydia was you, if you can be arsed to go back and read the comments, you will see that the comments preceding mine was by another Lydia.

Then I misunderstood, and I apologize.  (I have no problems with apologizing when I’m wrong--it happens often enough that I’m used to it.  ;-) People just think I’m a know-it-all bitch.) You jumped at the anon-Lydia by asking why she kept posting and telling her to go back to her own blog--as I was the only other Lydia who’d posted on that topic, I thought you confused the two of us, especially since she had no blog link.  So while I knew you were responding to her post, I thought that you assumed we were the same person.

Actually, it wasn’t your *single* post but a whole slew of back-and-forth sequences on your blog and the one you posted about that depresses me--I shouldn’t have followed the link, and once I got the tenor of the other post, I shouldn’t have read further, but I suppose I’m an idiot sometimes.  Though I am a fan of vehemence, the gleeful bile and the quickness with which many voices of moderation were squelched was demoralizing.  I am the last person to ask anyone to “play nice”...but why all the hatin’?

I STILL don’t think that Shelby Morgan’s “cronies” attacked you.  I really, really don’t.  Even putting the most malicious spin on their comments possible, the worst that I can come up with is impatience and *perhaps* a tad of condescension, and like I said, that’s reading stuff into their words.

If none of your comments to Lydia-anon were meant for me, that is a classic example of reading things into a statement that aren’t there.  It’s possible.  It happens.  But I try very hard not to do it and, if I can’t help feeling like someone is deliberately going after me, I still TRY to respond with as much generosity as I can possibly manage.  I’m not being kissy-kissy--I’m just trying not to be unfair.  Because I know I can be, as apparently I was this time.  And I know you disagree, but I think you’re reading things into the authors’ comments that were not meant by any stretch of the imagination.  Maybe you’ve been hit by frothing authors one to many times--I don’t know.  But I’m not seeing what you’re seeing--not bitchslapping and not hunting in packs, with one exception and one half-exception.

If you see every attempt at discussion as “fanning the flames”...erk, well, I suppose I can’t do anything about it, but I did not and do not regard rational discussion--even about sensitive topics--as innately frought with high emotions, much less as being some sort of incipient conflict or grappling of wills or whatever.  It’s not inherently an act of hostility to disagree with someone, at least in my view.  But if you do think that--and I am not trying to say that you do, since this can be my misinterpretation, and I am merely exploring possibilities, so please forgive me if I’m wrong--I think this would explain a great deal about my disconnect with your interpretation of what happened.

Picture of azteclady azteclady said on...
06.23.06 at 12:50 PM |

Lydia, I have one, and only one, nick: azteclady. In almost a decade of reading and posting online, I have not found another azteclady. So, no, it wasn’t me at ARR (which I only visit through links from the Smart Bitches, by the way)

Picture of Laura V Laura V said on...
06.23.06 at 01:07 PM |

You’ve probably got a few new readers as a result of your posts at AAR, Lydia, and miraculously (or maybe it’s not so miraculous and has something to do with Amazon’s delivery times) we’ve finished at roughly the same time.

Picture of Laura V Laura V said on...
06.23.06 at 01:13 PM |

Sorry, azteclady, I got confused. I was at AAR, and you weren’t.

I only post on romance-related boards under one username.  One day, though, another Laura V might turn up, and that will be confusing, like the never-to-be forgotten Day of the Three Robins, which confused a lot of people at AAR.

Picture of Mistress Stef Mistress Stef said on...
06.23.06 at 02:40 PM |

Chickenshit.

Picture of Mistress Stef Mistress Stef said on...
06.23.06 at 02:43 PM |

As for readers and how they’re treated...I love the readers. They pay my damned paycheck, and that of my authors. While one can’t please everybody, it never killed anyone to be nice to the people who buy your stuff. Beyond business practice, that’s simple bloody logic: you don’t bite the hand that feeds you.

Picture of Darlene Marshall Darlene Marshall said on...
06.23.06 at 04:12 PM |

Y’all have said everything so well I have nothing to add except for this:  Pirates.  Not Ninjas.  Who even thinks it’s a contest? 

Sheesh.

Picture of bam bam said on...
06.23.06 at 05:18 PM |

Um. No, Darlene. Ninjas. Why are you even trying to argue?

Picture of kate r kate r said on...
06.24.06 at 03:39 AM |

oh, bah. “she woke up and discovered it was all a dream.”

Or worse, a way to teach a lesson and not a true appreciation of snark.

tchah. here’s my lesson in return.
Rule One for blog hopping: if a blog raises your blog-pressure and you don’t want to have high blood-pressure, stay away from said blog.

That’s why I stopped visiting Michelle Malkin.

Picture of Miri Miri said on...
06.25.06 at 11:59 AM |

It’s snarkaliciously snarkadelic!

Picture of Jeri Jeri said on...
06.25.06 at 12:30 PM |

Muh-huh?  Who are these people?  I’m so out of touch.  I feel like the dog at the the dog park who comes running up after the big fight is over and everyone is going home mad, and I have no idea what happened because I was too busy eating grass and sniffing squirrel shit.

These kerfuffles are why I’ve vowed never to self-Google after my book is published.  I just don’t want to know what people are saying about me. 

Plus, I believe there ought to be professional boundaries between readers and authors.  If you don’t stand on my lawn with a big JERI SUX sign, I won’t come to your blog and wave my royalty statement in your face (it would just make you laugh harder, anyway). 

Besides, like Victoria said, there’s this thing called writing that has to be done, with this thing called time.

Picture of desertwillow said on...
06.25.06 at 04:14 PM |

I’m like Jeri - I just walked into the party after a major bitch-slapping event has finished up. So I’ll do my best. I followed the link Candy posted for us. This chick posted her ‘farewell, cruel world’ speech, picked up all her shit and went home to have a good cry. Now here’s where my grasp of things may slip but it sounds to me like she’s a writer who doesn’t like readers (like me) to criticize her work. Big-fucking deal. I buy a book, I buy an opinion on it. That’s the way it is. My opinion is just as good as any published writer that’s in her orbit. In fact it’s better because I’m buying or not buying more of her books depending on my opinion. I can speak my opinion to anybody I choose to. I can publish it if I want to, I can blog it, I can even call people on the phone or write them a letter about it. It happens to everybody. You pour your heart and soul into a project to make it perfect and some asshole comes along and says ‘I guess it’s okay’. Again, that’s the way it is. Any author has a problem with me having an opinion on his or her work then email me your name and I won’t buy, borrow, or check your stuff out of the library. No problem. I’m writing a book, I’m going to get it published (just you watch), and a lot of people are going to love it, some are going to hate it, a few are going to be baffled at my success and blog mean things about my work, others are going to come up to me in the supermarket and tell me how I could make my work much better. I look forward to that day.

Picture of kate r, aka idiot said on...
06.25.06 at 04:51 PM |

gah! why can’t I follow my own damned advice?
*thwack* [head against wall]
don’t visit
*thwack*
blogs that annoy
*thwack*
you
*thwack*
ow

Picture of MaryJanice MaryJanice said on...
06.25.06 at 07:34 PM |

Okay, this totally reminded me of the Friends episode (The One Where No One’s Ready):

Ross: No! I’m sick of this. Okay. I’ve had it up to here with you two! Neither you can come to the party!

Chandler: Jeez, what a baby.

Joey: Yeah, Ross, way to ruin it. I was just going to get dressed.

It’s too bad Anonomous (God, I despise cowardice...use your REAL NAME) packed up her toys and went home...we were all just going to get dressed.  Probably.

Picture of azteclady azteclady said on...
06.25.06 at 07:37 PM |

*handing Kate R an ice bag and a couple of pain killers*

Picture of Diane said on...
06.26.06 at 04:40 AM |

I could really CARE about this cover issue. Write your books, keep out of the blogs if you don’t want to hear anything but accolades. This crying foul is childish we are hearing. What? Readers buy the books because of media hype?

I say the pinch is being felt by the authors. Now it has become ugly. If you write bad, readers are savvy enough to find this out before they hand over the big bucks. No matter how much media coverage, web pushing on sites authors engage in, if the book is not holding up, we know, we talk, we read the blogs, we may not buy.

Covers have never sold me on buying a book in my 36 years of reading a romances or any other genre. In all these years, I have tried NOT looking at the covers! These covers were not the picture I wanted in my head while I was reading the book!

My expectations about the book in my hand I just received by whatever means is I will lose myself in a good story. Sorry authors, it is not the norm. It was not ever the norm in 36 years of reading. I always consider a good read, or an exceptional one, a gift. I am always pleased I found another one to pass on, put on my keeper shelf, or just talk about if anyone wants to know about a book worth “opening up” in IMHO.

BTW, I have NEVER said to someone I was discussing books with, “Oh you
have to read this book,(or don’t bother with this book) the cover was just great( just awful).” Please , how damn dumb would that be? As dumb as all this I think brouhaha.

Picture of EvilAuntiePeril EvilAuntiePeril said on...
06.26.06 at 04:48 AM |

Well damn. And just when the frustration of days of sitting on my hands while muttering the mantra “Leave it alone, do not fan the flames” had finally driven me beyond the point of no return. I was all ready to let caution fly to the winds and post my review of their review site of sites that review this morning. Owing to the tied hands, I had to type it with my nose and everything. Beaucoup snotty.

Then hopefully someone else would have reviewed my review, and that review would have been critiqued on someone else’s blog which could have been snarked by another writer on another forum. This would have been met by a flurry of outrage culminating with a poster who hadn’t read all the comments mistakenly calling the wrong poster a cheap handbag without matching shoes.

Then a group of anonymous writers of Barbara Cartland fanfic would have banded together, formed a blog called “The Vicariously Impulsive Runaway Gypsy Ingenue Nun-brides of Sheikh Rodrigo’s Uber-Snark and colonised the Isle of Wight. V.I.R.G.I.N.S.R.U.S. would have declared a pulchrocracy and given all able-bodied men between the ages of 25 and 45 peerages and six-packs. In the face of this new threat, Beth, Slayer of Foley, would have signed a battlefield truce with the Ladies of Lallybroch and re-enacted Culloden with Gaelic subtitles in Maili’s back garden.

SB Sarah would have kept her top-secret meeting with Mrs. Giggles in a shady bar in South America (Montana? - I don’t think so). As the mysterious “Read Barons”, they’d have taken off from a jungle airstrip in a modified Fokker Dr.I with secret baby wings and launched an aerial bombardment on Avon HQ. Their attack would have been backed up by ground forces made up of ancient half-naked vampire Roman warriors in teeny leather skirts awoken in the nick of time from their enchanted sleep by Snarkling Clean, Dear Author and the Book Bitches.

Meanwhile, resolved to go on the offensive, HQN and Zebra would have formed an uneasy alliance with seven (lookee: mystic number!) e-pubs and spear-headed a subliminal message campaign in ladies’ restrooms all over the world. But one of the editors with an ex to grind would play a double game and so the message, “Fabio is a dream-hunk. You want and need the burning love of DeSalvo” would be recorded backwards over an old copy of “Living on a Prayer” and played in men’s toilets in three American states and Botswana.

In the ensuing chaos, MJD and a team of fellow-authors would have pawned her diamonds in Amsterdam and used it to successfully push through emergency legislation setting out specific IQ requirements and/or other chosen standards for any potential reader. New experimental technology would have developed books that could give any unauthorised reader a graded series of electric shocks for each successive violation, from “frizzy hair” to “(femme) fatale”.

In the interests of literary freedom Candy and Bam would have modified oven gloves and earthing boots for illicit readers and sold them on the black market. Having made their fortunes, Candy would have self-published a series of photographic essays on tinned cat food and Bam would have retired to a secret underground lair built by aliens and grown giant hydroponic watermelons.

And now, my dreams are but ashes. *sniff*. But at least Harriet loves us all.

Picture of Suisan Suisan said on...
06.26.06 at 05:44 AM |

::rises from her seat clapping::

Brava!

Brava!!

Brava, EvilAunitePeril!!

(But you know I only applaud because I am a slavish follower of the Smart Bitches. It had nothing to do with your eloquent prose.)

Picture of kate r kate r said on...
06.26.06 at 06:24 AM |

if we can’t be as brilliant as EAP (and who can?) we might take our cues from the political world.

Check out this response to a critic.

Picture of kate r kate r said on...
06.26.06 at 06:26 AM |

so much for trying to do fancy stuff in YOUR comments.

Here’s the link to the blogger repartee.
http://whiskeyashes.blogspot.com/2006/06/lee-siegel-self-portrait-civilized.html#links

Picture of Candy said on...
06.26.06 at 06:34 AM |

Naw, you just forgot to close off the link with a second quotation mark, Kate. I’ve made the same error loads of times. Link fixed!

Picture of Bibliophile Bitch Bibliophile Bitch said on...
06.26.06 at 11:44 AM |

As one who remains anonymous when I snark, I can say that I am a coward. Too often, reviews are not truthful.  If something is awful (in the reviewer’s opinion) then snark ought to be able to occur.  But careers can be stunted by snarky comments about big name people. 
So, yeah, I’m a coward.  I don’t trash anyone to be mean.  It isn’t personal.  But that’s why it’s fun.  It ISN’T personal.  The minute that it becomes about personalities, it’s not fun anymore. 
Very interesting subject.  I, too, am worried about free speech.  Maybe we’re too snarky too.  I don’t know.

Picture of Jaye Patrick Jaye Patrick said on...
06.26.06 at 10:07 PM |

Bravo EvilAunitePeril! Braaa...vvvvoh!

Picture of S. S. said on...
06.27.06 at 10:31 AM |

I adore your reviews, whether you praise or rip into the book.  Please keep them coming.  :)

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