Smart Bitches Trashy Books | All of the romance, none of the bullshit.

First off, I don’t think any author should worry about what critics say regarding “reinforcing stereotypes” about black female sexuality. The thing about stereotypes is that believing in them requires no logic whatsoevah. Someone who believes women of color are walking around with no panties on waiting to do what-what at the drop of a hat is not going to believe otherwise because of a few tasteful fade-outs before coitus in Romancelandia. These people would be waiting for a group of nuns to drop it like it’s hot...so it’s perfectly fine for your characters to have sex-even kinkny sex-and like it.

That said, sex and romance go together like peanut butter and jelly/bananas/honey, et al. Part of love is sexual attraction and fulfillment, people. Unless I’m reading a book with a major plot point that requires no coitus/sexual healing, I’m gonna feel cheated. If one of the things these romances do is to reflect AA people accurately, then I hope good sex would fit in there somewhere!

Interesting topic, by the way.

There are quite a few of us out there reviewing black romance and considering the world these romances inhabit and the way they deal with relationships and issues such as infertility, politics, etc. The sites you mentioned are doing it, of course, but I’m also doing it at WriteBlack, as is the smart lady who runs Reading While Black. 

Heck, a couple hundred or so fans and authors just returned from the Romance Slam Jam Conference (Google it) in Chicago this past weekend, where some of these issues were addressed.

I also would argue that black romance readers and critics are as diverse a lot as nonblack readers and critics, so the fact that a few have problems with expressions of overt sexuality is not an indication of such problems on the part of the whole. Some of the most raucous and hearty applause at the Emma Awards banquet came when the winner was announced for the “Favorite Steamy” novel.

I’m just saying.

I’m glad to hear the issue of the lack of “marriageable African American men” addressed. (Although that sounds so very Regency, doesn’t it?) I read some study that said AA women have only a 20% chance of getting married. And I know there are plenty of scary or depressing statistics regarding race in America, but that one just really disturbed me. Not that marriage is the most important thing in the workld. I guess it’s just the idea that if you’re a black woman in America, you get to face all those other scary or depressing things… alone. And sadly, most of my black female friends accept this as reality. (While every one of my white female friends already have their wedding dress picked out, regardless of whether or not they have a boyfriend. The idea that they may not ever get married literally never crosses their minds.)
Oh, and the idea that stories of love and commitment that happen to include sex will somehow back up stereotypes about black women… you know what? Totally true. It does in fact tell us that black women care about monogamy and love as well as a sexual connection. How terribly stereotypical.

Great post today!

I write some IR fantasies. Moon Shadow has a very black heroine in braids and the hero is white. But if you look at the cover, you can’t tell what race the heroine is. In fact, she’s Tina Catanzaro, and she couldn’t be whiter. I hear (and believe) that finding IR stock images is difficult, but one might also ask why that is. If more publishers used IR photos, more photographers would make IR photos.

I’m involved in the annual cover contest, and there are always great covers on many of the black romances.  I don’t think one made the finals this year but there was one last year and two or three the year before.  (What makes the finals is always kind of random.) I like looking at people on my covers, and it seems like many contemporary books don’t have couple covers any more.  I just love to see a beautiful couple on a romance cover - and whether that couple is black or white doesn’t really matter to me.

On the other hand, I run across a lot of “gangsta” covers, and I always wonder who these covers are appealing to.  They don’t say “romance” to me, especially since the covers often feature two or three women fawning over one man (usually a man with a gun).  But I guess they aren’t aimed at a reader like me.

This is kind of off topic, but I read Rachel Buttler’s THE ASSASSIN, and the heroine is part black. It’s a terrific book and I wanted to read more like it, so I went to Amazon and tried looking for books related to that kind of suspense. When I visited her Amazon page, nothing came up but multi-cultural books as suggestions for other books to read. Now what the f***? The book can be classified under multi-cultural, sure, but it’s not even a book that concentrates on race at all. THE biggest damn thing for me is that all multi-cultural books should not only be under that category, unless they choose that. They should also be put in the damn category that relates to their book. Suspense, paranormal, women’s fiction, whatever. Don’t pigeon-hole the books. Put them out with the rest of their genre so people can actually see another book is available in the genre they like to read. No matter what the race of the heroine or author is, the book should not be classified by race. That pissed me off to no end. I searched and searched for books like Rachel’s and they didn’t have ANYTHING related to the subject matter. Just categorized by race. That is so wrong.

Now since then, Amazon DOES suggest other books in the same genre for THE ASSASSIN. I hope someone chewed their asses out and good.

I’m glad to hear the issue of the lack of “marriageable African American men” addressed. (Although that sounds so very Regency, doesn’t it?) I read some study that said AA women have only a 20% chance of getting married. And I know there are plenty of scary or depressing statistics regarding race in America, but that one just really disturbed me. Not that marriage is the most important thing in the workld. I guess it’s just the idea that if you’re a black woman in America, you get to face all those other scary or depressing things… alone. And sadly, most of my black female friends accept this as reality.

When I first started writing, being unable to visualize myself or my friends (a bunch of who have gone to scary/absurd lengths to find a “good” black man) with a black man due to their scarcity was one of the reasons I chose to write interracial romance.  I didn’t want to give up on happily ever after just because black men were becoming an endangered species and I thought that exploring romance outside a comfort zone would add interesting tension to the h/h relationship.

I’m wondering if authors who write IR romance do so because it is a reflection of their reality or in response to the dearth of black men that Ms. Redd speaks about or a combination of those two things or for some other reason entirely.

They [romance novels] offer a substitute for those who have resigned to never really being able to find a fulfilling love in their actual lives.

Wow. Really? That old tired nugget?

They [romance novels] offer a substitute for those who have resigned to never really being able to find a fulfilling love in their actual lives.

Wow. Really? That old tired nugget?

Seems backwards, doesn’t it?  I think I would find lack of fulfilling real-life love an excellent reason to avoid romances like I’d avoid stampeding rhinos.

The stealth covers drive me crazy.  Mia Zachary’s 9 1/2 Days is one of those.  It’s a Harlequin Blaze, and it took a bunch of Googling and reading the author’s comments on Amazon to figure out the characters were black.  (It was important for me to know this because I write category and it had been a no-no for so long, I wanted to know how someone slipped one by - and this was before the Silhouette Desire Brenda Jackson debut).
As a black author and reader of romance since I was ‘introduced’ to them by my grandmother in the ‘70s, I have read black romance on and off for years.  I generally don’t read them now because I feel they stopped evolving, in some sense, in the 1980s.  When Harlequin (and all the subs they subsequently purchased) moved past the bedroom door, the black romances didn’t keep up.  As even NY got into the act with erotica, etc., I feel like many of those books are still stuck in the sweet romance world - which worked for me until puberty.  My preference would be to have all authors no matter race writing for all genres so that my reading could have a little diversity without having to travel hither and yon in the bookstore, and so I could get my sensuality in different colors as well.

I’m glad to hear the issue of the lack of “marriageable African American men” ... I read some study that said AA women have only a 20% chance of getting married.

Many black women are quite resistant to marrying outside the race.  But recently there has been a rise in IR marriages bewteen black women and non-black men.  Part of it is propinquity.  Professional black women work with and also socialize with non-black males and thus find themselves more open the the idea.  The other part of it, is frankly, they are becoming increasingly aware of the dwindling pool and are re-evaluating their options. 

There is a movie starring Sanaa Lathan and Simon Baker (hot!) called Something New which could be the template for the perfect IR romance novel and also addresses so many issues that have come up in this forum: it acknowledges racial differences without preaching about it, anyone, white or black, could identify with this woman as she struggles with her professional life as well as her own personal assumptions about what makes the perfect mate, and, sadly, it was marketed as a ‘Black film’ so it didn’t get a big distribution. 

In the film Sanaa and her friends discuss the very issue of marriageable African-American men.  They are single, professional, upwardly mobile and not close to getting married.  And, true to what I’ve experienced among my own friends, resistant to marrying outside the race.  It takes a change in thinking for her to consider it.  and when she does she falls for her hunky landscape architect.

The film does a great job of looking at (but not in a heavy way) race but also class.  She is the upper class one.  Her family is educated and wealthy.  He is the blue collar one.  And what is even more awesome when she does meet the perfect mate (she has a list!), the delicious Blair Underwood, she can’t even appreciate him because she’s already fallen in love.

I’m forced to comment because my spamword is matter67.  What does race matter in romance?  Everything and nothing, simultaneously.

I have nothing of substance to add (being fishbelly white, and having my acquaintance of people of African descent limited to people actually FROM Africa or the Carribean, but no anything-American on the mix), so I’ll toss in some trivia.

I read an interview with Jada Pinkett-Smith about how she chooses roles, versus how her husband does.  I watched Kingdom Come, a movie about a family getting together for their father’s funeral, and it was hysterically funny.  My roomies and I rented and watched it something like 5 times, and it never really registered that it was a Black Film until I read this interview.

She (Jada) said that she tends to think about (wildly paraphrasing here) the socio-political impact, and looks for Black roles in Black projects, whereas Will looks for colour-neutral roles, like Independence Day or Men in Black.  That is, the roles he played were perfect for him, but could have been played by anyone of any ethnicity.

I have read black romance on and off for years.  I generally don’t read them now because I feel they stopped evolving, in some sense, in the 1980s.  When Harlequin (and all the subs they subsequently purchased) moved past the bedroom door, the black romances didn’t keep up. As even NY got into the act with erotica, etc., I feel like many of those books are still stuck in the sweet romance world

I’m not sure what you mean, Jessica. There have been plenty of sexually explicit scenes in the AA romances I’ve read, including those in Harlequin’s Kimani Romance line.

I read interracial romance because I can connect with the heroine [who is usually black] and as a young black female [turning 20 in June] I used to wonder what was wrong with myself, and black females in general over the fact that we don’t seem attractive to other races or are looked at as wifey material. I have a cousin who only dates white girls because black girls are loud and brawling and bring drama.

As someone who has seen girls of every race fight over foolishness or bring drama for no reason I just didn’t buy that, or if black guys do want to date you they never seem to want it to be long term or it’s always the mixed girls that get all the love [nothing against mixed chicks half my siblings are mixed, cuteness all around, lol].

[Bit of topic] My father has three bi-racial children, has only dated either super light women [my mother is ‘high yellow’ almost hispanic in complexion] or white women but he got on this huge high horse about his daughters should only date ‘African Kings’ and blah blah blah, but we need to keep our temper in check, etc. And it’s real hypocritcal of him I think since he’s dark skinned but he has never evendated someone who is brown, always either mixed looking or white but he would be upset if I dated someone out of my race.

So interracials are sort of like ‘fantasies’ to me, my favourite ones are the ones were the racial aspect is dealt with but it’s not subtle, it’s mainly the characters [usually the female] dealing with it and coming to terms with having to introduce him to her family and yet they also have other problems that every couple has to struggle through.

One of my favourite IR books has a line where the male [white] fell in love with the female almost at first sight but she was the one being difficult about it [her black ex-fiance thought she was ugly when she decided to go natural while the white hero adored the texture and the curliness, etc] and there’s a line where she comments on that and he says ‘I love you because the colour of your skin, the way your hair is and everything about you.” and she says something along the lines of “ I love you *despite* the colour of your skin” and I found it really interesting that he embraces her colour instead of pretending it’s not part of who she is but she does her best to ignore it and she didn’t realise until he said that, showcasing the way she felt about herself as a black female and yeah, rambling, lol, but that just hit a chord with me. She’s the biggest block to her own happiness just because she wants to believe he wants to change her to fit a view of the perfect women that she has in her mind he’d want, not what he actually does.

I also enjoy reading about IR couples from the POV of an Asian girl and a male of another race since there are still racial undertones but it’s more family based and the prejudice can spread to a Korean girl dating a Japanese guy or Chinese guy etc.

@Jage—I think I might be in love with your entire post.

I read some study that said AA women have only a 20% chance of getting married.

I knew that was an issue facing AA women but I didn’t realize it was that horrible.

While it is completely wrong to not have black couples on a book because they are black, I’m personally not big on people (of any race) on a book. There are a few good cover exceptions, but for the most part...eh.

Suze: really interesting re: Jada and Smith. Just saw a movie she was in last night for class- Set It Off.

Jage- what’s the name of the book? It sounds good.

I really should’ve read that over twice before posting.

my favourite ones are the ones were the racial aspect is dealt with but it’s not subtle,

Not shouldn’t be there.

By going natural I mean she stopped getting her hair chemically straightened.

Sorry for the typos, and glad my rambling made sense, lol.

@orangehands: It’s an online story, here’s the website for it:

http://www.bjthornton.com/SUB01.html

The author has another one up at fictionpress [online review community]:http://www.fictionpress.com/s/2452302/1/Preaching_to_the_Choir

Second one is basically about a young mixed girl who switches church because her priest betrays her brother’s trust and denounces him when he tells him he’s gay. So she goes to a new church where the pastor’s son[white boy] gets a crush. They’re opposite not just because of the colour of their skin but their values as well since he’s a ‘good’ boy and she’s not ‘bad’ but she sleeps around, drinks, etc. and he’s saving himself for marriage.

Two of my favourite YA IRs have to be Romiette and Julio by Sharon M. Draper and If You Come Softly by Jacqueline Woodson [though note, the second one doesn’t have a HEA but I love the message and the way it was written.]

@Laura - Maybe I’ll have to give them a try again.

@Suze - I loved that movie - mostly because of Simon Baker.  I used to watch his TV show - just for him.

Something New sounded interesting to I went to add it to my Neflix queue and lo and behold it was already in it! I’ve moved it to the top.  Thanks for reminding me Eva_baby.

I read some study that said AA women have only a 20% chance of getting married

You know, I’m sure that that study is fine, but I know plenty of black women who have married.  My family is bi-racial (through adoption), and my sisters have been able to find husbands.  Unfortunately, 2 of them are now divorced, but they divorced for the reasons anyone does--their husbands were jerks in the way that men can be, regardless of race.  From what I’ve seen, our society does tend to give young black men a raw deal, and it’s ridiculous.  I’ve been around long enough now to see that any one can get involved with drugs, be promiscuous, commit a crime, drop out of school, neglect your child,or do something violent--it has nothing to do with race-- I suspect economic status is more the culprit....although we all know plenty of well-off people who do these very same things.  I had something else to say, but I can’t think while my son is yelling for a popsicle....oh, yeah!  Love (not just lust, or infatuation) is hard for anyone to find, and when we find it, we should embrace it, no matter what color it comes in.  (All those family members will usually chill out, esp when the grandchildren come alone ;) )

Spam:  looking85--you know, I first dated the guy I was looking for in 1985....

Jessica, I’m now thinking that different people’s “heat” meters might be set differently, so maybe it would be better to give examples. So, here are links to

Rock Star Weddingthe mini-sequel to Rock Star by Roslyn Hardy Holcomb.
A Lover’s Touch by Brenda Jackson.
Never Too Late, a Kimani Romance short online read by Brenda Jackson.
Got Milk?, not romance but “Literary Erotica” by Monica Jackson.

Jage, I found your comments really intriguing because of how they reflect a reversal in the types of common IR relationships. Back in the bad old days it was much more common for white men to go after black women (and I do mean ‘go after,’ because the women weren’t willing). Obviously those relationships were NOT about love, but about (male) sexual gratification and power. Black men in those days were likely to lose their lives in the pursuit of a white woman, whether she was willing or not. But you see the opposite now and I find that veeeeeeeeeery interesting.
I’m probably stirring a hornet’s nest with this question, but do you really think that black men are less likely to pursue black women because, like your cousin, they think black women are “loud and brawling?” Or do you think that some kind of “Off Limits” sign has been removed from the pursuit of white women and the novelty hasn’t worn off yet? Your cousin may be dating meek women, not “white” women because women bring drama, period. I don’t care what you look like, a woman who is passionately in love will holler and scream over her man. He may be confusing “white” with “quiet.”
And just to give the hornet’s nest one more stir, as a member (and by-product) of an IR marriage myself, I know there is still hostility over them. The most vitriolic hate that has ever been directed at me hasn’t come from “good ol’ boys” or “white-power” idiots – it has come from black women. I wonder if I just ran across a few nasty women, because women can be mean to each other over men regardless of race issues. Do you think that black women feel like they should have preferential access to black men, even if intellectually they may not assert it?

I just wrote a huge response and the server ate it or something so I’m going to go cool down then come back and rewrite, just felt I should share that.

Jage, thanks so much for the story link!  I just read it this afternoon and it was amazing.  Really, really great.

And yes, I read it all this afternoon.  It was dangerously compelling and didn’t allow me to do much else!  [Sorry baby, I’ll have to change your diaper later.  And don’t worry, Daddy will feed you.  ;-) ]

Does any one else have a problem with terminology here? I understand that romances about black folks have been excluded from the romance genre. But the term “Black Romance” seems to perpetuate the idea that that there is something essentially different about love stories that focus on black people.

To put it another way, you dont routinely hear about “black science fiction” or “black mystery”. Granted these genres werent quite as exclusionary as romance. (And I know that science fiction as a genre isnt some wonderful paradise of racial inclusiveness… but still).

And then there are other terms that might be more inclusionary. Multicultural romance- same problem. Also lacks specificity cause that just means people from different cultures. So conceivably you could have a “Multicultural Romance” with a German and an Australian. “Interracial romance” also suffers the same problem. Its seems so problematic that any of these terms would be used to signify subgenres.

It seems ass backwards to name a subgenre based on the skin color or ethinicity of the people falling in love instead of naming a subgenre based on thematic differences or elements.

Also Trash Addict and Jage, I am not even going to address your posts( while interesting) here. It may sound cliquish or elitist but its like trying to explain American electoral politics to a French person in 20 minutes. You need a history lesson. And a much longer and nuanced conversation is needed. If the SBs promised to review more romances featuring people of color then maybe…

Author Gwynne Forster has also done an article on romances with black protagonists, for Affaire de Coeur.  You can read the online version here.

Jage, I second the thanks for the link.  That story was all kinds of wonderful.  The present tense made it kind of poetic, and some of the turns of phrase just stopped me dead in my tracks.  I’ll be going back there again.  Holy crap, it’s 4 hours later!

@Collette and Suze: I found that link during exam time, lol, it is extremely addictive. I haven’t finished the sequel although I think it’s looking at the issues more from the male view this time.  I wish she had comment boxes although I think I’ll email her just so she knows people are reading it and enjoying it.

@Trumystique: I understand where you’re coming from but I think people are saying Black romance because it’s considered exotic for someone from say Australia to hook up with a Greek tycoon, any mix of someone who is ‘white’ and another person who is white is relatively mainstream if you look at Harlequin’s past listing but stories with Black characters, or Asian aren’t that popular. I was going to say middle-eastern as well but there seem to be a lot of shieks showing up.

I think that as long as people are being judged by your skin, if you mention skin colour in relation to your characters it will be assumed to be a part of the conflict. The same goes for some religious stories where the main characters are say Christian and Muslim, it’ll create conflict [obviously]

And I think here is a good place to start since it gets people who might not have even thought of things from that POV interested or give them enough insight to look deeper if they haven’t already.

The majority of stories I read tend to IR [black women/white man or asian woman/white man although online hispanic guys are popping up a lot]

@Trash Addict:
I don’t think it’s an exact reversal however because girls from other races aren’t really going after white guys or what not, and those who do no matter their race are likely to get labelled as being ‘white washed’.

The problem is a lot of guys think meek and white are synonymous. Not just black but other races. And if they’re not meek they’re crazy or ‘act black/ghetto’.

To be honest I’ve never really thought about that ‘off limits’ aspect, but if that’s the case then why hasn’t it occured with coloured females? Or females of any race outside of white? [not saying it’s not frowned upon by some people to see a white female with someone of another race but they do tend to be more predominant to date outside of their race] Sure we tend to be more cautious about entering a relationship with a man outside of our own race based on what we hear, our family’s reacions as well as just the way we feel about it, but shouldn’t they be going after us more?

While I was typing this I wanted to say excluding the guys who think they’re black and believe dating black girls give them some sort of ‘in’ and guys who have weird fetishes about certain cultures [you have all seen those asian porn pop-ups and pictures when you’re googling something anime related] which probably says quite a bit about prejudices I already have in my head, lol, even though I’m trying to get past it.

The most vitriolic hate that has ever been directed at me hasn’t come from “good ol’ boys” or “white-power” idiots – it has come from black women. Do you think that black women feel like they should have preferential access to black men, even if intellectually they may not assert it?

Probably. Or more a case of default [this may come out wrong but bare with me] as in, you know for a fact that you’re attractive to males of your own race and then you see them going out with girls who are able to date anyone they want [in your mind, this might not be the case] it just ticks you off.

As well, it has to do with the fact that every day you see someone telling you that something about you isn’t that pretty. I know I stopped being friends with one girl because she was explaining to me that biracial people are ‘perfect’ in that they aer attractive to all races unlike others, and that pissed me off but then you hear your guy friends talking and they love so and so because she has ‘good hair’ [curly and soft] or she’s the perfect complexion [light skin] and it’s like, well damn. Or, vice versa depending if you’re light skin in a predominantly black neighbourhood. My sister has been called white n**** before because she’s light by another black girl, it got real heated.
One time I heard this boy [white] who I was acquantices with make a comment that he didn’t see anything wrong with dating a black girl if she was pretty, but he’d never seen a pretty black girl so ...

And those things build up, and depending on your personality you might start to hate yourself and end up taking out your insecurities on the girls who they see as being competition. Lately I’ve noticed a trend of mixed/light girls lashing out out at darker girls, maybe in response to the negative attention they recieve or because now black girls have started to be considered pretty on main stream beyond the ones that are mixed?

I write both IR and AA romance.  I will keep writing both, though lately I have been writing mixed characters (The heroine in my WIP is a Black Cuban Jewish woman).  So why do I write them?

I write AA heroes and heroines because I think it’s important to show that black men and women can be successful and educated and meet and fall in love and commit to each other in holy matrimony.  It’s an homage to my brother and SIL, and to my sister and BIL.

I write IR couples because I think it’s important to show that people are people, and they all want the same things: love and acceptance.  That what is most important is to find someone who understands you, not who looks like you.  That it’s not color that’s the end-all and be-all, but similar interests and hopes and goals.

Am I including messages?  Not in a beat-you-over-the-head sort of way.  My goal is to entertain first.  If your view is expanded just a bit at the end of my story, that’s a bonus.

OK, I might just be pulling this all out of my ass, and sorry if I offend anyone, but I’m just throwing down some of the random thoughts I’ve been having as I read comments.

Does anyone think that the reason only 20% of black women get married is a cultural thing? Because from what I’ve seen of “hop hop” culture (admittedly not a whole lot), it seems that promiscuity in men is glorified a great deal, and women who are willing to wear skimpy clothing and shake their ass, etc etc are the ideal. So those two things together there, if its a widespread cultural thing (and it seems to be in my school, which is possible Whitest School Ever yet still manages to bring that over), then could that be part of the issue? All those bad standards and behaviors that arent conductive toward happy monogamous relationships keep getting reinforced as positive?

Also, I found the comment about romances with black characters reinforcing negative black female stereotypes interesting. Historically, IIRC, it was always black male sexuality that was feared (with good reason, there be some damn good looking black men) by white men. So could this be a case now of white women fearing black female sexuality? There is always this idea in people I’ve talked to and media I’ve seen that black women are just more sensual and sexual (not in a bad way), better dancers, better lovers, and yeah, more wild in bed...but is that necessarily a bad thing? To me it seems like black women got a reputation for things that arent necessarily bad, and maybe white women felt threatened by that. They have been the standard for beauty for so long, what are they going to do when all the white men start chasing black girls?

And just wondering here, but why is there this idea that it is mostly black men who are gay, adulterous, felons, etc etc? Seems to me that it isnt race that makes you any of those things, its personal choice. A matter of environment, that mostly black people find themselves in? Or is it just that only the black crimes really get highlighted?

Random final thought: Seems to be that a lot of the crap that goes with this racial stuff in romances is all fear based, for lack of a better word. People are safe dating and marrying within their race because its what they know, and when someone leaves that and enters an interracial relationship, people get uncomfortable because its breaking the norm, and then maybe people start to wonder what would happen if their lover or crush or whoever started to prefer something that they couldnt change, like skin color...and so they get scared, and shit like this starts to happen.

Shannon, you started by saying you were pulling comments out of your ass. I dont know how old you are or where you are from.  But because I am charitable and am trying to make this a teachable moment… Please Please Please reread what you wrote and think a little bit.

Does anyone think that the reason only 20% of black women get married is a cultural thing? Because from what I’ve seen of “hop hop” culture (admittedly not a whole lot), it seems that promiscuity in men is glorified a great deal, and women who are willing to wear skimpy clothing and shake their ass, etc etc are the ideal. So those two things together there, if its a widespread cultural thing (and it seems to be in my school, which is possible Whitest School Ever yet still manages to bring that over), then could that be part of the issue? All those bad standards and behaviors that arent conductive toward happy monogamous relationships keep getting reinforced as positive?

Also, I found the comment about romances with black characters reinforcing negative black female stereotypes interesting. Historically, IIRC, it was always black male sexuality that was feared (with good reason, there be some damn good looking black men) by white men. So could this be a case now of white women fearing black female sexuality? There is always this idea in people I’ve talked to and media I’ve seen that black women are just more sensual and sexual (not in a bad way), better dancers, better lovers, and yeah, more wild in bed...but is that necessarily a bad thing? To me it seems like black women got a reputation for things that arent necessarily bad, and maybe white women felt threatened by that. They have been the standard for beauty for so long, what are they going to do when all the white men start chasing black girls?

But I can say that many of your assumptions show ignorance or a lack of knowledge. Let’s see some of your assumptions/assertion below:

Assertion 1 Promiscuity is a cultural phenomenon

Assertion 1a Promiscuity is a trait of African American culture

Assertion 2 Hip hop culture equals African American culture

Assertion 3 Hip hop as seen in popular media encompasses/truthfully depicts all of hip hop culture

Assertion 4 Historically only black male sexuality has been feared

Assertion 5 Stereotypes of black female sexuality are based in truth and thus are depictions of reality i.e. by nature black women “are more sensual and sexual (not in a bad way), better dancers, better lovers, and yeah, more wild in bed”.

I will come back to comment on this when I am calmer.

Assertion 2 Hip hop culture equals African American culture

Assertion 3 Hip hop as seen in popular media encompasses/truthfully depicts all of hip hop culture

I think that is misconstruing her words. When I read what she said I thought of it more along the lines of media influencing the youth, not of it being a truthful depiction.

Example; people who said that the Sweet Valley High books caused them to develop eating disorders because they weren’t a size six or they hated themselves because they didn’t have blonde hair and blue eyes. That is the media influencing the people who are reading them.

As such, since certain forms of hip hop is mainstream [50 Cent, Nelly, Ying Yang Twins, Lil’ Wayne etc.] and a main source of black role models, black youths will see that and view it as the norm and as acceptable behaviour, and *they* will view it as something to attain to be ‘black’ not that it is a truthful portrayal of the black culture.

The media influences everyone in some way, and just as people think Paris Hilton is OMG amazing and think that is the high life, there are people who hear 50 Cent talking about drug deals and what not and will follow that.

There is always this idea in people I’ve talked to and media I’ve seen that black women are just more sensual and sexual

She’s speaking about things the way it has been presented to her, and as she mentioned herself she goes to a predominantly white school she probably hasn’t been around people who could dissuaded her from these assumptions though I don’t think she stated it as a fact but more as that from what she’s gathered people may be threatened by these stereotypes whether they be true or not.

Sorry if I’m not making sense

Shannon, I have to say that your post is… well, it’s very ignorant.  You’re judging black culture based on how your predominantly white school has appropriated it, as well as how it’s interpreted in the media.

And do you really not see anything wrong with the stereotype that black women are more sexual?  Really?  Because despite what the media or the people at your school may think, it’s just that: a stereotype.  And such a pervasive stereotype is damaging to black women… or do you think it’s okay that they’re propisitioned far more than white women because, hey, they’re more sexual.  Or that they’re denied a sense of purity and innocence because of it.

Jage: Thanks for the links (*not looking till I’m done with my essay, not looking till*...oh crap, I’m gonna look...no, no, be strong, wait till tomorrow) and I’m loving your comments.

Not doing this nearly enough justice, but to start…

Black men in those days were likely to lose their lives in the pursuit of a white woman, whether she was willing or not.

Black men were likely to lose their lives in those days because they were black. (Not much has changed there). The excuse of saving white woman’s purity/place on the pedestal was one excuse for lynching black men, but as for all these bm/ww couples? Not very likely at all…

I’m probably stirring a hornet’s nest with this question, but do you really think that black men are less likely to pursue black women because, like your cousin, they think black women are “loud and brawling?”

Know it wasn’t aimed at me, but I figured I’d take a crack at it too. I think the reason black women aren’t being pursued is because the media/society has taught us that they are ugly, loud, ball-cutters (as in will cut your balls off), and other very negative stereotypes, and those have been subtly and not-so-subtly reinforced in a variety of ways since the beginning. It’s only been x years (not sure of the number but not that long) since black women have been gracing magazine covers, movies, etc, and the majority of the time it was light-skinned or bi-racial black women that were given the “beautiful status”. There are very few images that say black women’s features are beautiful, and since we get extremely ingrained by what society calls beautiful…

pay34: Yes, I will pay for spending time at those links now by getting a 34% on my essay...and yet I still head towards them…

Historically, IIRC, it was always black male sexuality that was feared (with good reason, there be some damn good looking black men) by white men.

Images of black-women/

It isn’t as “positive” as you think.

Black men in those days were likely to lose their lives in the pursuit of a white woman, whether she was willing or not.

I forgot to add: I was reading a book about “Negroes in Chicago” that was published in the 1930s and bm/ww pairings weren’t as rare as everyone likes to think. Sure, many of the white women who married black men were recent immigrants (German, Polish, etc), but it happened--so white women were not seen as “forbidden fruit,” and the fact that these black men and white women were willing to weather the discrimination and hatred from society and their families meant it was love that brought them together, not the allure of the “other.” A somewhat amusing story was told in the book that recounted a huge lawsuit brought against a millionaire who married his black housekeeper by his white children. I found it fascinating to read these stories because love is such a powerful thing.

Oh, Racialicious has a great post on the IR subject:

Interracial/Interethnic Relationships

Angela: No, that’s a really good point. I read a similiar book (I don’t think it’s the same because I don’t remember a millionaire who married his housekeeper...then again, I have the memory of a gnat). But no, bm/ww weren’t that rare. But the black rapist myth that survives from that period is very damaging...I should worded my comment above better.

Jage: I *heart* you. That story was amazing. (My friend interrupted me right during the airport scene and talked for over an hour, damn her, or otherwise I would have finished it sooner). Very poetic writing, great characters, all of it. The present tense was throwing me off in the beginning (my mind automatically put it in past tense), and sometimes I’d get knocked by a headhop, and there were a few small things, but yeah, overall it was very enjoyable. When you email her (I’d do it myself but I didn’t see it on her webpage), please tell her she writes gold.

I copied the quote you mentioned yesterday:

“No,” Lucas says slowly. “I know that we’re different, Marlowe. But I love you.” He shrugs. “Not in spite of - because of.” She purses her lips. Lucas disengages their arms and turns to face her. “For you, it’s in spite of. Right?”

She nods slowly, awkwardly. “I’m sorry.”

Lucas shrugs again. “Maybe I should be upset, but I’m not.” He clears his throat, looking over her face. “Maybe I think that’s brave.”

“Brave?”

“Yes. Have you ever done this before?”

“No.”

He nods. “You could have told me to go to hell. Instead, you’re going through it. I respect that,” he says firmly, deeply.

BTW: You are to be blamed when I fail this essay. Because I just noticed she has a sequel to it and I’ve already proved I have no willpower...dammit. 

SBs will be the death of my schooling. :)

How do people feel about the AA sections in bookstores? Most non-AA readers never even browse the section, thus aren’t even exposed to these works as an option. However, lots of our customers request the AA section (or urban romance). 

Is this respectful or segregation?

Okay, first of all:

He may be confusing “white” with “quiet.”

He can’t possibly have spent any time around white women if he’s that confused.  Yeah, I’m a loud bitch, baby!

Also,

Because from what I’ve seen of “hop hop” culture (admittedly not a whole lot), it seems that promiscuity in men is glorified a great deal, and women who are willing to wear skimpy clothing and shake their ass, etc etc are the ideal.

You can’t get accurate information from music videos.  Back when they first started airing, music videos showed big-haired, skin-tight-and-artfully-ripped pants-wearing, mascara-ed, skinny rockers living in post-apocalyptic streets with skinny tarts, er, “video vixens” as being the Metal Ideal.  (Chainmail bikinis, so very practical when fighting off mutants.) Promiscuous men, women willing to wear skimpy clothing and shake their asses.

It’s the Rock n Roll Dream, and it never changes, regardless of the style of music or the colour of the musician.  The gender of the musician, sure, but if it’s a man, you have not know he wants to be promiscuous with lots of semi-nekkid wimmin.

Er, please read “you have to know” where it says “you have not know"…

This is very true - people talk as if rap & hip hop videos were the first to have underclad females jiggling around.  (I take no particular stance on underclad jiggling females, by the way).  The white guys were at it a long time before.  In my opinion, it’s a music video thing, not a Black thing.

So I’ll talk out of MY ass for a little bit:  Regardless of how “loud” individual white women may or may not be, a group of African Americans being “loud” will always get more flak in the U.S. because they will be seen as representative of a race, not as individuals who happen to be loud.  (In my area, South Asians are starting to get the same kind of flak, especially Caribbean-born, South-Asian-ethnic people. [and they’ll get a great deal of that flak from Asian-born South Asians.] The demographics are changing, so the dynamics are as well.)

And yes, because American society teaches black woman that we are ugly (some of the hair-relaxer ads from the 80s were atrocious, but that was hardly the start of it) black women can look at black men who date white as being traitors.  I am not saying jack about it, because I have dated my share of lovely white guys (due to my major at my tiny college, the tininess of aforesaid college, my geek pursuits, and my subsequent career choices and their demographics)—however, I have been told by men both white, black, and mixed that they “just don’t find black women attractive” (but had no problem making me their “friend,” “one of my best friends,” “you’re my friend, you’re not like a GIRL-girl,” “oh, you’re such a good listener, I feel like I can tell you anything, so let me get your advice on this blonde girl that Swede, and this Italian girl that I’m dating/fucking/trying to fuck") that this:

One time I heard this boy [white] who I was acquantices with make a comment that he didn’t see anything wrong with dating a black girl if she was pretty, but he’d never seen a pretty black girl so ...

...is really, really upsetting me right now, to the point where I’ve had to close my browser twice to just blink for a bit. (I’ve also heard a Japanese guy say that wassername, Chilli?—the long-haired one, I think?—was the only pretty member of TLC—because he was not American he had fewer qualms about forthrightly saying “because she isn’t so black looking.” This sort of thing makes me wonder, against my will—is it really socially-imparted, this universal disgust with us? Or is it ingrained in the DNA and objective somehow?  And I will never be able to tell because I am so immersed in the historically racist American milieu. So yes, I’m upset and making an effort not to outright wibble right now.

I have had black African and Caribbean men attempt to pick me up with the line: “You’re not like these African American women; you’re so quiet.” This is disturbing to me as a bi-cultural woman—often I DO feel more quiet/shy/reserved/introverted than my strictly African-American-raised colleagues (there are some big cultural differences), but I HATE that this difference is associated with negativity instead of just cultural difference. (I also hate it when one group of the other—but primarily the U.S.-raised—deny that there even is a difference.) I am often torn.

My mom is still mad at Sidney Poitier for divorcing his black wife and marrying a white woman, and loves Denzel Washington, regardless of his comparative merits, because he didn’t do that.  (My preference is exactly opposite, but has nothing to do with their private lives.  I love me some Poitier.) But my mom was born in 1937.  I don’t KNOW, I know nothing. Blah. I need coffee.  Or chocolate.  Mmm, chocolate.

And just wondering here, but why is there this idea that it is mostly black men who are gay, adulterous, felons, etc etc? Seems to me that it isnt race that makes you any of those things, its personal choice.

Shannon, please try not to suggest that being gay is a choice, or that it is on par with crime.

I DO feel more quiet/shy/reserved/introverted than my strictly African-American-raised colleagues (there are some big cultural differences)

(By which I do not mean to suggest that any type of personality is more inherent to any group—just that different societies tend to reward different types of behavior.  What gets you promoted in the U.S. will fry your ass in Japan, for example.)

(my sign-in is “death11.” Ouch, ominous!!!)

Wow! What an interesting post and so many stimulating comments! I will say that when I saw the title of the post was “Black Romance,” I wondered if that was something like “black comedy.” I’d only ever heard this sub-genre referred to as “African American Romance,” before, so I was a little thrown. However, I am very interested in AA romance and IR romance and I’m as white as they come! Half my friends are non-white and I’ve dated many non-white men, so I’m always interested in reading romantic fiction that involves other races. I also saw “Something New” and absolutely adored it. And I just finished writing an IR novella (sitting on Brava editor Kate Duffy’s desk right this moment) with a white heroine and an African-American/Costa Rican hero. Race really isn’t much of an issue in the book, though it is dealt with in a humorous way in the beginning to sort of break the ice on the issue. But it is simply a romance between a man and a women without any stereotypical charicterization. In the end, it’s simply a romance.

And I just have to say that even though I and most of my female friends (regardless of race) are certainly of a marrying age, we are all finding it hard to find ANY man that is marriage material. Perhaps it is because I live in Los Angeles and half the men in this city are actors or models whoring their way around town in hopes of wooing (is that spelled right?) an influential producer/director/Studio exec/what-have-you to get their careers off the ground. My point is, finding “the one” is a tough battle for most women and I think we can all relate to such storylines no matter what our ancestry.

Just my humble opinion…

Lucie

How do people feel about the AA sections in bookstores? Most non-AA readers never even browse the section, thus aren’t even exposed to these works as an option. However, lots of our customers request the AA section (or urban romance).

Is this respectful or segregation?

Danish, there was considerable discussion of this on a recent thread here.

Whitesnake on a Plane:  Here I go again on my motherfuckin’ own!

stay25: I wish!

Mac, your whole comment is frying my synapses.  North American standards of beauty are so… ingrained, overbearing, EVERYWHERE! I don’t realize how much I’ve internalized we’ve made them until something like this hits me in the face.

OMG – Jage, I heart your brain…

I don’t think it’s an exact reversal however because girls from other races aren’t really going after white guys or what not, and those who do no matter their race are likely to get labelled as being ‘white washed’.

You are right, not really a reversal, just a change in the tide, and I think it matters where you live. I live in Vancouver, BC where more than 50% of the population is non-white and interracial marriages have tripled in the last 5 years. It’s one of the things I love most about this city. That and the food. If you aren’t at least open to possibility here, your dating life will be very sad.

To be honest I’ve never really thought about that ‘off limits’ aspect, but if that’s the case then why hasn’t it occured with coloured females?

Now that you mention it, I get that ‘off-limits’ thing more from my husband than from feeling disapproval from others, which I don’t really care about. Over his life he has felt that taboo, and felt in danger over it and it was talked about a lot in his family (possibly because he grew up in a predominately white area?). He himself wanted to marry a black woman, his family wanted the same thing. He couldn’t find what he was looking for.

As well, it has to do with the fact that every day you see someone telling you that something about you isn’t that pretty.

I think everyone can relate to that! Your ego will take a thousand hits a day depe