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by SB Sarah • Thursday, November 01, 2007 at 08:48 AM
From the “OMG I’m squicked out from just reading the first paragraph” department, we have a link sent by Bitchery reader Kimberly Anne, who is as squicked as I am: Purity Balls.
No, not that kind of ball. You put on a dress, pledge to remain a virgin, and dance with your dad.
I’m not kidding:
the main agenda is for fathers to vow to protect the girls’ chastity until they marry and for the daughters to promise to stay pure. Pastor Randy Wilson, host of the event and cofounder of the ball, strides to the front of the room, takes the microphone and asks the men, “Are you ready to war for your daughters’ purity?”
Make war! Not love! And ignore the degrading interpretation of “purity” and somewhat repulsive subtext of controlling your daughter’s virginity!
96 comments •
Categories: News • Random Musings • The Link-O-Lator
Categories: News • Random Musings • The Link-O-Lator
Wow flashback! Well I can see this is going to end well. What are you setting the relationship up for? Failure eventually that vow is gonna be broken and what is dear old dad going to do.
The whole idea is promoting something that seems a little um incestuous in a sexual control scene. Yes, yes I went there. But they went first.
I mean great your dad explains sexual responsibility from a man’s perspective to you but to then makes your virginity accountable to him. EEEEEEEEW!
How gross is that? But, man, think of how awesome it would be to hand your ring back at breakfast one morning saying, “Guess I won’t be needing this anymore. Sorry. My bad.”
heh.
Robin said on...Sixty Minutes did an incredibly powerful story two years ago on these purity events, tying them to the Federal funding requirements for school sex ed and the disturbing incidence of STDs in some of the kids who take these purity pledges (they often have non-vaginal sex without condoms). The transcript is online and it’s quite a sad read:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/20/60minutes/main696975.shtml
Oh, yuck. Scary, regressive and squicky. It’s a triple play.
But I snickered over Lisabea’s comment.
azteclady said on...Beyond sad, for the poor kids [of both sexes] caught in their parents shit.
Damn whomever came up with this.
(yeah, I feel just a tad strongly about it)
Charlene said on...I don’t care what the proponents say: if you don’t see a form of child abuse in this you’re deliberately avoiding the issue. This goes far beyond squick into pure unadulterated evil.
“Cover my daughter” with “my authority”???
Pardon me while I projectile vomit.
This whole “purity” thing is creepy. It’s incestuous and creepy and meant to do two things: assure the “fathers” of uber-control to satisfy their failed little egos, and to make certain those girls don’t take back their reproductive rights OR control of their bodies.
If cheap, safe, effective birth control and sex ed was a priority in this and every country, how much better would things be? But--and this is my own personal opinion here--the conflation between patriarchy needing to control a woman’s womb for inheritance reasons and the ruling class needing a pool of cheap labor assures us that safe, effective birth control is not and never will be a priority.
This is just a symptom of the problem, and a creepy one at that. These little girls are the women who will tomorrow prop up the megachurches with their blind zeal and produce little zealots. They’ll do the scut work of cleaning and funding the churches out of their meagre pay while the (mostly male) televangelists build golden empires on their backs.
It’s depressing.
Not to mention the high incidences of incest and sexual abuse in these creepazoid uber-"Christian" dominionist families, which squicks me out in a totally different way as well. It’s just a party of squick.
Sorry for the ramble. There is just SO MUCH WRONG with this I don’t even know where to begin…
StephB said on...Substituting a romance with your dad (albeit platonic, but still complete with all the traditional romantic trimmings) for a romance with an unrelated boy your own age - and specifically linking your sexuality to your father - is really, really disturbing and yes, definitely carries an extremely incestuous feel whether anything physical ever comes from it or not.
“Guess I won’t be needing this anymore. Sorry. My bad.”
Lisbea, I just fell a little bit in heart with you.
It’s frightening on so many levels. Pledging “abstinence” is very literal to many of these kids because they haven’t been educated. So, oftentimes, they’re still very sexually active by the having of the butt secks (because virginity is only related to the vagina, you know) and sharing the mouth love (because that’s not really secks now, is it?) and because they’ve pledged to their fathers to keep their vagina deheaded, they wind up completely fucked up. They have no control over their own life and they’ve learned at a very young age that the man is they can’t be trusted to make their own decisions about their bodies...so some man must do it for them.
Grumble.
Sana-chan said on...“I, [father’s name], choose before God to cover my daughter as her authority and protection in the area of purity….”
Holy shit, that last sentance squicks me the FUCK out. In part because cover is also a term used in animal breeding, so in my head it took on some decidedly sexual undertones. Actually to me the whole thing has sort of disturbing sexual undertones. Pledging your virginity to your dad? EWWWW. I think my poor father would be as squicked out by this as I am. It’s just… I dunno, there’s something so creepy and wrong, and archaic about this that leaves me way skeeved out.
They have no control over their own life and they’ve learned at a very young age that the man is they can’t be trusted to make their own decisions about their bodies...so some man must do it for them.
riled up much, Mel…
er, that should say: at a very young age that they can’t be trusted to make their own decisions about their bodies…
Angelina said on...I cringed through the whole article. While I will admit that I would prefer that my future daughters didn’t shag everything that moves, I would never ask them to pledge their “purity” to their father. This is one step from sticking your daughters in the convent.
I just keep squicking about the fact that this whole scenario has a very Elektra(sp) Complex feel about it.
Mel you are so right this teaches little girls that men must always be in control of their sexuality and they need men for protection them from dirty dirty sex.
BUT as someone who is HIV+ the most unforgivable, criminal, life threatening, thing these Inhuman Ignorant Freaks are doing is telling kids condoms don’t work so do not bother using them. So when you do have sex make damn sure you die or at the very least fuck your life up!
That’s REAL LOVE.
Sorry, don’t know how to quote properly… But Teddy said “I mean great your dad explains sexual responsibility from a man’s perspective to you but to then makes your virginity accountable to him. EEEEEEEEW!”
Make a girl’s virginity accountable to her dad...so does that mean boys do the same with to their moms? Oedipus must be rubbing his/her/its hands.
This is beyond disturbing. And remember, I watch x-rated manga (involving tentacles) translated into French without raising an eyebrow.
Oh, did I say this out loud?!
Sorry.
Estelle Chauvelin said on...I’ve already said about as much as I have to say about purity balls, so and now for something completely different:
The middle school is providing perscription birth control? Until I read that, I’d been assuming from all the headlines I saw that they were handing out condoms. I don’t think I’m comfortable with a K-12 school clinic writing perscriptions, period. By the time I finished middle school, I had come to the conclusion that the entire purpose of a school clinic was to give somebody the authority to say “no, you’re not sick enough to go home,” no matter how lousy and feverish you felt, until your temperature hit a certain number (never mind if yours was normally a bit low) or you threw up.
Verification: hot86. Maxwell Smart is great, but I don’t think the word “hot” really applies.
AnimeJune said on...Now, I’m actually a person who intends to remain abstinent until I’m married, but this is just WRONG.
I think they’re misunderstanding why women want to have sex.
“Girls have to be married to have sex, so let’s have a fake wedding to their dads, and then they’ll never want to have sex! They’ll never know the difference!”
In response to Lisabea’s comment:
“Guess I won’t be needing this anymore. Sorry. My bad.”
Dad: “YOU’VE BEEN CHEATING ON ME?!”
I heard about this a while back and couldn’t even get through the whole article because it creeped me out so much. (Shudder!!!)
If a girl wants to remain a virgin, fine, but she should be doing it with a full understanding of exactly what that does and doesn’t mean, and she should be making that pledge to and for *herself* not her daddy. (I just shuddered again.) That’s just creepy and wrong. (And if it wasn’t creepy and wrong, then they should have boys pledging their purity to their mothers too. Sheesh!)
I think there should be some sort of middle ground between having sex too young and having no sex at all until marriage anyway. I don’t have kids, but I talk to my nieces and nephews about sex sometimes (hey, I’m a cool aunt!) and I’ve always told them that they should wait long enough to start having sex so that they understand how to take precautions against disease and pregnancy, to have some hope of dealing with the consequences if those precautions fail - as they sometimes do. But I *don’t* believe in waiting for marriage to have sex, because if it turns out that two people have radically different views and expectations on what makes a good sex life, the honeymoon is a really crappy time to find out about it. One of my life theories is that before anyone considers marriage to another person, they should have sex together, they should go on vacation together, and they should spend some time with each other’s families, and they should spend some time around each other when each of them are sick, even if it’s just a head cold. If they really don’t like their reaction to the other person during any of those times, well...I see that as a potential deal-breaker.
Teddy, you’re right. you’re so very right. Teaching abstinence and teaching sex ed should not be exclusive. They go hand in hand, whatever your personal/religious beliefs are.
I’ve often said I’m going to be the local condom pusher for my kids’ friends. I joke with my boys (ages 13 and 9) that when the time comes (har, har) there will be a bowl full of condoms at the front door that will always magically replenish itself and there would be a don’t ask don’t tell policy that accompanied it.
The other parents are gonna love me.
Also, while reading the article, this line caught my eye:
“Randy Wilson’s 19-year-old daughter Khrystian....”
Dude, how religious can you be if you can’t even spell “Christian” right?? *lol*
wordworm said on...no “smileys” here.....obviously you nice ladies don’t live here, in southeastern Ohio-the buckle of THE BIBLE BELT where fear and ignorance rule!!!???that whole Chastity Pledge is real big in my town----but it seems to go South without anyone aknowledging the fact....the statistics on teenage HIV are scary but “under the rug” if you catch my drift...how can you educate teenagers if their parents refuse to recognize the fact that their kids are just like they were Before They Got Saved....or whatever....it’s a vicious scary cycle that is prevalent all over this country...sure not like when i grew up in the early 60s....my mother told me half truths/lies but hey...i didn’t have AIDS in my immmediate future...just college...any one else out there have some smart ideas on this very serious problem
saltypepper said on...When is the Mother/Son Purity Ball? Oh right, they don’t have one, because even the families that recognize the double standard enough to encourage their sons to remain abstinent would NEVAH suggest that a teenaged boy is answerable to his MOTHER (or any other woman) about his virginity!
This is such a set-up on so many levels. What are they going to do when many of those girls grow up and realize they married someone they may not be sexually compatible with? I mean, I just about lost it when that one girl in the article said she was saving her FIRST KISS til her WEDDING DAY. Color me jaw dropped.
Bonnie said on...See, I’m all about abstinence and waiting for your marriage, but I fully believe that it is a decision you have to make for yourself. When I decided to wait for marriage, I went into the decision completely educated on what abstinence meant and what sex was all about. My mother was completely honest with me about how she felt about sex before marriage, but she also told me that it was my decision and while she might be disappointed if I chose to have sex, she would still love me as much as always and that I wouldn’t be damaged goods (so to speak). Also she told me that if I’m going to have sex, it better damn well be safe or she would kill me. If it is not a decision you, yourself, have made it isn’t going to stand up against outside pressure and is therefore meaningless.
Being raised in a Christian environment, I don’t find as much squickiness in this as those who may not have. The term “cover” is often used when praying for protection and has more to do with anointing with something than covering as in animal reproduction. I think it is insular and naive to believe that the contracts and promises that these girls make are going to protect them in the real world when they deal with those big decisions. I would rather these dads promise to despense advice with honesty and love and to accept that their daughters are going to make decisions that are out of their control.
I don’t want a useless chastity ring. I want a ring to Rule the World. It would probably work just as well, huh?
Talk to YOUR kids.
No matter what else gets said outside your house, YOU talk to YOUR kids.
If you blush, so be it. If you stumble with your own embarrassment/ignorance/parents-induced-shame… so be it. Own that, and go on.
Just TALK TO THEM.
We parents cannot protect our kids from way too many things to count, but by Dog we can at least arm them with a modicum of knowledge.
*off soap box for now*
(and still repulsed by the whole shit)
Llamalu said on...I am an RN in a NICU where we have the highest delivery numbers in the nation - 16,000 babies born a year in this hospital! I regularly see 11 and 12 year olds giving birth. We have looked at clusters of babies in the area and have found some correlation with local junior high schools...I think condoms SHOULD be available at schools! Teens are going to have sex. Period. If they feel they “can’t” have vaginal sex they will find another way, and find diseases along with it.
Just my two cents worth!
Llamalu - you are so right. The sad statistics are that since these girls take these “vows”, their rate of pregnancy and STD’s is pretty high. Why? Because they are not prepared when the urge hits - and as horny teens, the urge will hit.
What kills me are the teens who are having oral sex but that’s okay because that isn’t “really” sex.
The concept of “accepting” a ring from my father as a symbol of remaining pure gives me the heebee-jeebees. YUCK
And what a double standard? Just can’t see the mom/son ball (no pun intended) being a big attraction. Boys will be boys - BS
Girls will be boys and boys will be girls
Its a mixed up muddled up shook up world Except for Lola
Lo-lo-lo-lo Lola
Yeah, we don’t see the sperm-donors of the babies in the NICU so much! Lots of grandmothers, though.
I am still shuddering from the “Ball” concept. Yuckety Yuck!
SamG said on...NO, not happening in our house. Sorry, but this is just so men can have ignorant wives that expect nothing in the way of satisfaction. Keep ‘em ignorant and we can be AWFUL. They’ll never know. Because you know, Daddy isn’t handing them a vibrator and saying ‘use this and know your body so you can teach your husband what makes you feel good’
I would like my DD to wait longer than I did. I will talk to her more than my parents did me. I was just so damn curious about the whole thing. Why is it such a big deal-type curiosity. I found out pretty early. And it really wasn’t a big deal…
Sorry, I have worth far beyond any tiny membrane...any man who thinks that I don’t doesn’t deserve me. I would prefer and honest,loyal and supportive husband far more than a ‘pure’ one, and thankfully my husband is wise enough to get that too.
Sam
[The middle school is providing perscription birth control? Until I read that, I’d been assuming from all the headlines I saw that they were handing out condoms. I don’t think I’m comfortable with a K-12 school clinic writing perscriptions, period.]
Problem with that is, why should a girl have to rely on the guy she’s with to use contraception? That’s like taking the responsibility out of her own hands.
They should have the ability to prevent pregnancy by their own means, instead of having to rely on the guy to do it.
Nora Roberts said on...Everybody’s already said it.
I heard about this a couple of years ago, after the 60 Minute story buzz.
It’s, well, squicky’s been used and it fits. And that it’s tied to federal funding is squicky--and infuriating--on another level for me.
Maybe betrothals at puberty, arranged by the parents, will come next. Just so everything’s dealt with. No point in a girl pledging her virginity, her freedom to choose to her father if she goes off and marries some guy he doesn’t pick out for her.
No need for sex education if you follow these steps because hey, no teenage girl (and how about the boy) would ever disobey her father. What a ridiculous notion.
“Girls will be boys and boys will be girls
Its a mixed up muddled up shook up world Except for Lola
Lo-lo-lo-lo Lola”
Bwhahahahah!
The people who think this is going to work probably figure if they can convince the girls to say “no, I’m staying true to my DAD” that the teen boys won’t have anyone to have sex with. What? If they are actually naive enough to believe the girls are going to stay virgins they’ll believe the second, right?
I’m all for my own children (boy and girl) waiting longer than I did, but I also agree with DebR that two people need to REALLY get to know each other before they get married and that includes RESPONSIBLE sex.
Joanna S. said on...Have any of y’all seen the documentary “The Education of Shelby Knox”? We watched in my feminist reading group, and it was fabulous. It presents the exact middle-ground that SB Sarah originally discussed - Shelby Knox is a young woman who makes a chastity pledge at her church and who also campaigns for a comprehensive sexual education program to be instituted in her high school, which only teaches abstinence.
It was shocking to me how many older town officials, her preacher, fellow students, and other people in the community tacitly call her a whore for just wanting to educate her fellow teenagers on ALL of the dangers of sex, not just the potential spiritual ones for those who believe in such things. But any time someone even remotely questions her commitment to her virginity and no-sex before marriage pledge, she gets all up in their grill and is like “Dude, you don’t know from whore!” It’s fantastic...very Joan of Arc. I highly recommend it!
And, on a side note, I have an absolutely wonderful father - when I was a young adult with burgeoning hormones and boyfriends to go with them, he knew what was going on behind my closed bedroom door, and HE LEFT ME THE FUCK ALONE! He let me figure it out for myself; he showed me that he trusted me to make one of the most important decisions of my young life for myself but let me know he would always be there for questions, support, and a shoulder to cry on in the inevitable aftermath of failed adolescent luurve. And, because of that trust, I didn’t actually have sex until I was good and ready (at 21 with someone I truly loved) no matter how many guys tried to convince me otherwise and friends who told me I simply HAD to do “it.” So, I didn’t need a ball or a stupid patriarchal (and just plain icky pledge) to be a confident, successful, and independent adult - I just needed my truly awesome dad!
I’m actually tearing up a little bit...I must go now before I make folks start to hurl…
When is the Mother/Son Purity Ball?
Well, Lucille and Buster Bluth go to Motherboy XXX in Episode 35 of Arrested Development.... ;)
Joanna, that was a really lovely tribute to your dad. The sort that made me think of mine, and with gratitude for what I had.
Nice.
Shannon said on...I’m not even going to get into how disturbing I find the fact that you are pledging your virginity to your father. That sounds freakishly like you are promising to give it to him.
Anyway.
Teenagers are going to have sex. Period, end of discussion. Acting like it wont happen because they wrote their name, not even as the person the pledge applied to but as a witness (demeaning much?), isnt going to change that.
You’re 16, your sex drive is starting up, and back in colonial times when families were patriarchal like this, this was when you would already be on at least your 2nd pregnancy. This is the age when you start to explore your sexuality, your likes and dislikes. I dont even want to consider what will happen to you mentally and emotionally if your “normal” husband disocovers that his virgin bride is a sexual “deviant,” especially if both are from a strongly Christian community.
In theory, the idea is fine. I’m all for abstinence, but this is handing control of your life over to your father, possibly the most biased person in the equation. Its not something these girls should be tricked into doing under the guise of attending a big party, and I dont see it turning out well.
I’m VERY close to my father. The only thing even close to this kind of nuttiness between us in 42 years were two moments:
1. When I left my first fiance, who was physically abusive. He asked me about the nature of it and was clearly embarrassed, but needed to know. I was extremely young.
2. When I married my husband he asked if we were “ok in that department.” I was touched he asked.
Anything beyond that is creepy. I want to run in there and scream DON’T DRINK THE KOOLAID before those girls pledge anything.
Marianne McA said on...I’d be in favour of the early birth control. When my oldest started High School (that’s at age 11) there were children in her class who, by their own account, were sexually active. Not many, but a few.
And one of her year became pregnant last year, when she would have been 14 or 15. (Baby is adorable, I’m told.)
I can’t see what you lose by making birth control available to those girls.
(It’s an all girls school - obviously, I’d feel the same about boys.)
Kimberly Anne said on...I nearly lost my cookies when I first found about these Brainwashing Balls. Setting aside the verrrry creepy undertones of pledging your purity to dear old Dad, I was strangely reminded of my wedding.
My dad died when I was 13, so I didn’t want anyone else to walk me down the aisle. My mom kept insisting, suggesting my uncles, my grandfather, even my little brother! I wondered why she didn’t volunteer to do it herself. The reason, apparently was because I needed a MALE member of the family to do it. Which reminded me that “walking your daughter down the aisle” is also known as “giving your daughter away”.
Oohhh. Ewww.
So, I guess the idea is that you pledge your virginity to your father, and then when he gives you away to your groom, he’s handing over your virginity to him at the same time.
Holy 12th century, Batman. I am not a brood mare in my father’s stables, nor a piece of my husband’s property! Why is this such a hard idea for people to get?
I’m on board for abstinence but I think telling kids condoms are not safe to keep them “pure” is wrong and potentially deadly. I’ve seen how many young people decide to get married so they can keep that vow and then get divorced because they were too immature or incompatible. I can see that happening with some of the girls in this story.
The idea of the Purity Ball rankled me because there’s no room for mothers. Yes, the hints of incest and patriarchy are creepy but if and when something happens who is the daughter likely to turn to--her dad who vowed to wage war for his daughter’s virginity or her mom, who was a girl herself and understands more than any man can?
I shudder to think what might happen to some of these girls if they wind up pregnant or with an STD. This mindset is not too far removed from the concept of “honor killings"--the lack of virginity in a female somehow dishonors her family
OK, I’m through and on my way to Mass in a bad mood now.
Okay, ladies. I am a Christian, in fact a minister, and my teens are Christians too. By their decisions, not mine or my husbands. And I have had sex talks with them from the time they were 3 or 4, and continue to have them, about all the different aspects I can think of. Mostly, because I don’t want them to get information about their bodies, disease, or pregnancy from the rumor mill at school- “But Joey said that if I close my eyes it won’t count.”
I also talk with them about the emotional and mental aspects of sex, and we’ve had discussions about power, politics, abuse, and manipulation. We’ve also had talks about how much freaking FUN it is- though they are both a little squicked when thinking about their parents boinking. My daughter told her dad one night, “I just know I’m not going to be one of those girls that let guys treat them like crap. I know how I should be treated, because I’ve seen how you treat Mom.” My son has issued similar statements.
I don’t know anything about these purity balls, or anyone who is involved in them, but I can tell you that many times in Christian circles the term “covering” is used euphemistically (such as ‘prayer covering’) so I’m not really worried about that. I agree that there is no substitute for education, and I have my doubts as to the effectiveness of these events. Any vows should be made between the young people and God, if they need to be made at all, IMO. My main beef with these things- do the sons get the pledges and rings and dances, too?
But I’m coming out of lurkdom for this: there have been a number of comments about the poor, ignorant, barefoot, pregnant women, and may I say that I am sick, sick, sick of people assuming that every Christian woman is a downtrodden slave? I am in a traditional Christian marriage. I am also, I assure you, no slave, and woe to the man who thinks he can treat me as such. I have been a practicing Christian for twenty-one years, married for twenty happy years- and, though it is probably TMI, have had a VERY good sex life- and have known countless women in my situation.
There are many romance readers who become incensed at the stereotypes pushed on us; according to some we’re all unhappy, orgasm-challenged housewives with third grade educations. Just because there may have been some readers like that certainly doesn’t mean it’s the norm. It’s the same with traditional Christian women. Yes, there have been some mouth-breathing knuckle draggers who think they have a biblical right to beat their women. (They don’t, by the way, which I’ve been happy to prove to a number of people.) But there are also a number of college-educated, forward thinking women who are quite happy to be evangelical. In fact, the number of women pastors and teachers has grown tremendously in recent years in the evangelical movement.
I’m just asking the bitchery to think before you tar us all with the same brush.
cecille said on...My Dad would have had a heart attack if I had asked him to attend one of those purity balls with me. He’s always been very liberal, especially with regards to talking openly about sex. Both my parents have always been open and honest with me, when I was a teenager, and made sure I was on the safe side- going as far as my Dad taking me shopping for a supply of condoms before I went to college.
Incidentally, my whole family also happens to be devoutly Catholic and still consider sex to be one of the most natural and beautiful things ;-)
sorry, forgot half a sentence there- Incidentally my whole family also happens to be devoutly Catholic and still consider sex to be one of the most natural and beautiful things even before marriage.
*note to self- must proof-read before posting*
If I ever began to talk with my father about my virginity, or lack thereof, he’d immediately find something important to do in the garage.
And this, I think, is the appropriate fatherly reaction. :)
There are many romance readers who become incensed at the stereotypes pushed on us; according to some we’re all unhappy, orgasm-challenged housewives with third grade educations. Just because there may have been some readers like that certainly doesn’t mean it’s the norm. It’s the same with traditional Christian women.
Well, I am not a woman and I also am not very religious being Gay and all.
I have to step in since my Grandfather is a Four Square minister and my parents dragged me through several extremist Christian Cults growing up.
I think your beef needs to be made with all those extremists that are allowed to promote themselves as Christian.
They proudly proclaim the female stereotype you hate so much as God’s Will and some of those Freaks are now allowed to teach children in public schools abstinence education using federal grant money.
With absolutely no real denouncement from the traditional mainstream Christian Churches.
I spent most of my twenties not talking to my parents because they still associated with these Jim Jones type Cults that call themselves Christian.
I am very much aware you believe the stereotype being talked about is false and that these extremist Christian Cults are an exception to the rule but I know from experience that they are very common especially in the fly-over states.
If you hate the stereotype they promote then first work to denounce them as the true culprits.
I only say something because I used to get upset when the jock guys considered Gay men a bunch of queens.
Then I realized how the hell could I complain when Queer Eye For The Straight guy was on promoting, guess what, queeny Gay men?
I figure eventually people will think about it and realize most of us Gay guys have as bad taste as they do, like beer, football and several of us are actually plumbers and garbage men in real life.
One of the main reasons girls have sex before they’re ready is to please their boyfriend or to “prove” they love them. These Purity balls put girls in the same position of sacrificing control of their sexuality to please a man, and to prove they love him. Only this time, the man is their father.
I think we’d be far better off teaching girls to be responsible for their own actions and to their own needs, instead of using their sexuality to earn a man’s approval or affection.
The older girls at the Broadmoor tonight are themselves curvaceous and sexy in backless dresses and artful makeup; next to their fathers, some look disconcertingly like wives. In fact, in the parlance of the purity ball folks, one-on-one time with dad is a “date,”
And this is just plain ick.
Teddy Pig said:
I think your beef needs to be made with all those extremists that are allowed to promote themselves as Christian.
They proudly proclaim the female stereotype you hate so much as God’s Will and some of those Freaks are now allowed to teach children in public schools abstinence education using federal grant money.
This is one of those times when I agree with him wholeheartedly.
If you hate the stereotype they promote then first work to denounce them as the true culprits.
I do, Teddy, whenever I can. I have not turned a blind eye to the abuses of the church; I was merely reacting to some of the comments by saying that I am tired of sweeping generalizations. I did not mean to imply that the church has not sinned, nor that they should not be held accountable. I also did not mean to imply that no one else on this board is a Christian; I have had a tough week defending myself against just these types of assumptions, and I had a knee-jerk reaction. I am sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my intent.
Ruth said on...I was really squicked out when I learned about creepy Randy Wilson and these Purity Balls. I was even more squicked out when I learned about him arranging one of his daughter’s marriages. Just the way the went about it reeks of handing over a piece of property. Blech.
snarkhunter said on...Robyn, thanks for that comment. While I’m non-traditionally Christian now, I’ve been in the evangelical environment, and have seen both the awesome feminist side of it and the scary, scary purity-pledging side. So THANK you for defending Christian people as normal and forward-thinking. :)
That said, I also get frustrated by the attitude that abstinence is impossible. I fully support giving teenagers as much contraception as will fit in their backpacks, and as much education as will fit in their heads. (More, actually.) Give them vibrators, porn, and lube. But do not simply assume that abstinence is “impossible” for teenagers, or that they’re automatically going to fail at staying abstinent until love/marriage/whenever.
But I *don’t* believe in waiting for marriage to have sex, because if it turns out that two people have radically different views and expectations on what makes a good sex life
Whatever happened to talking about these things? We don’t expect people to actually have kids in order to find out if their parenting styles mesh--why do they have to have sex to find out if they have the same sexual expectations/values. Dialogue, people! Dialogue!!
Of course, I fully support having sex with your willing partner(s) whenever is best for you, but I hate the attitude that people who waited are somehow immature/misguided. Certainly, some of them are. But so are some of the ones who jump right into sex.
Argh. Anyway. I get a little defensive on this subject, as an improbable virgin who is waiting for love, at the very least.
But do not simply assume that abstinence is “impossible” for teenagers, or that they’re automatically going to fail at staying abstinent until love/marriage/whenever.
I do not think the studies that have been done studied based on assumptions since they were done scientifically to see how this teaching of abstinence worked.
It was proven that it failed with 80% of the participants. That is not an assumption that is fact.
For me, it isn’t that I think that it is impossible for people to be abstitnent but rather the fact that some people seriously believe that teaching abstinence only will prevent teens from having sex. Or that teaching children about safe sex will make them run out and start whoring around.
~There are many romance readers who become incensed at the stereotypes pushed on us; according to some we’re all unhappy, orgasm-challenged housewives with third grade educations.~
I think the problem is the genuine, the real are overcome by the actions, and the drumbeat, so to speak, of the extreme. And it is frustrating and disheartening to those who don’t subscribe to those actions and don’t beat that drum.
Most--Christian or otherwise--live their lives. Just live them. And too often the extreme set the stereotype.
Posters are reacting here to the extreme because the extreme is the topic.
The media tends to beat the drum of the extreme and those images and actions. It’s hard to blame them when the extreme makes so much damn noise and demands so much attention.
It seems to me the term Christian’s been highjacked by the extremists--and will continue to be as long as Purity Balls are celebrated by that extreme--and receive federal funding.
Not fair, not right.
It’s not right that an anti-gay `church’ would disrupt grief and beat their ugly drums at funerals.
As long as these people shove their personal morals down the public’s throats, they’ll perpetuate this stereotype.
It’s a complete bitch that those of genuine Christian faith are dumped in the same pile.
But I’m coming out of lurkdom for this: there have been a number of comments about the poor, ignorant, barefoot, pregnant women, and may I say that I am sick, sick, sick of people assuming that every Christian woman is a downtrodden slave?
Perhaps people make that assumption because this “purity ball” idea (and many other ideas thought up by the Christian Right) appear to many to be a form of sexual slavery.
I’d throw these guys in jail if I could. It’s so far beyond wrong it needs a new name.
It’s a complete bitch that those of genuine Christian faith are dumped in the same pile.
Right you are, Nora. I’m a crazy Episcopalian and I bear no resemblance to the folks in that article.
this “purity ball” idea (and many other ideas thought up by the Christian Right) appear to many to be a form of sexual slavery.
I happen to agree.
It’s a complete bitch that those of genuine Christian faith are dumped in the same pile.
As usual, Nora said it well.
It’s not right that an anti-gay `church’ would disrupt grief and beat their ugly drums at funerals.
Oh you mean Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church who just got slapped for 11 million in court?
Yeah, they are just full of hate for not only homosexuals but the government as well, but they wave that bible and take full tax exemption status.
smartmensab-tch said on...Teling people that condoms don’t work is EVIL!!! Anyone who advocates this is directly responsible for Goddess only knows how many STD cases and unwanted pregnancies.
I hope there is a special hell for them - the same one that’s for people who abuse animals.
On the church subject
I think part of the reason that people assume that the majority of devout Christians are the extreme bible thumping, gay hating, condom banning type is because that is all we ever see.
TV Evangelists essentially send the same message as hate groups like Fred Phelps’, they just say it in a nicer way and with less law breaking and stupid moments to protest. But at the heart, they are still saying the same thing in the majority of the cases.
All that the other people who do not lead a devout right wing Christian lifestyle see are those extreme cases, so we think that that is the norm, that every holds those views.
And I hate to say it, but the normal people perpetuate the stereotype by largely staying silent. Yes, there are those that speak out, but the majority seem to say nothing and sit back and let it happen, and it comes across as lending silent support to the cause. In a political forum if some Democrat said that women did not deserve the right to vote people the other Democrats wouldnt stay silent, they would make it clear to everyone they could in every single way that they are not like that guy. And if they stayed silent...maybe they secretly are. That’s why I think there is such a broad generalization that gets made about right wing Christians. The normal ones dont speak out loud enough, just a stray voice here and there, so what you see every day ends up becoming the norm in your mind, because no one ever says otherwise.
Robyn,
I was not trying to lump all religious people in my ignorant wife comments. I was specifically talking about the purity ball people. I feel the same way about guys that want/insist on a virgin bride, yet he can have boatloads of experience.
Others have touched on that double standard though…
Sam
Um...anyone else really creeped out at the way they phrase this that they are pledging their virginity to their dads?
Taboo can be fun...but not like this.
Just the title of the article...just the damned TITLE! And then, the story of the nineteen-year-old with that weird, J.R. Wardian name--Khrystian--never having danced with any male other than Daddy. And then…
No, no, I can’t take it!!!!
Hey, I’m a Polish Catholic who’s had to endure many a polka with drunken, slobbering uncles, but NEVER did my parents insist they were the only males with whom I could dance.
The whole mindset veers way to close to legitimatizing incestuous impulses in older male relatives. Jim Jones? David Koresh? Certain polygamous throwback Mormons? I’m sure as shit not buying it. Who in their right mind could?
Way TOO close. (Man, I’m riled!)
“If I ever began to talk with my father about my virginity, or lack thereof, he’d immediately find something important to do in the garage.
And this, I think, is the appropriate fatherly reaction.”
Amen, sister! Once, as a young teen, I had to admit to my father that I had my period. He turned green and changed the subject.
I do not think the studies that have been done studied based on assumptions since they were done scientifically to see how this teaching of abstinence worked. It was proven that it failed with 80% of the participants. That is not an assumption that is fact.
I wasn’t talking about abstinence-only education, which I think is a crock of shit. I fully support comprehensive sex education, with a strong emphasis on condom use, masturbation, and the various kinds of sexual contact--oral, anal, genital, gay/straight/multi--kids should be told *everything.*
My point was that abstinence should be promoted as an *option,* b/c not all teenagers have sex, and assuming otherwise can be extremely marginalizing for those who choose not to. Comprehensive sex ed should be just that--comprehensive, which means it should include abstinence. Abstinence is a valid sexual choice, and should be promoted as such.
About extremist groups being the only voices you hear . . . Ever stop to think that maybe a normal, sane person saying, “This is wrong!” isn’t as nearly as interesting news as all of the yelling, angry extremists? I think the media is just as much to blame for this skewed view as those who don’t say anything. TeddyPig realized that people were going to persist in believing that all gay men are flaming queens because that is how the media chooses to portray them, the same can be said of Christianity and the belief that we,re all right-wing extremists.
because that is how the media chooses to portray them
Well no not quite there with what I really think.
That is how the media can successfully SELL Gay people as entertainment sorta like how they sell The 700 Club.
I don’t fight it because I know what the scary truth is after 10 years in the Navy. The fact is your football playing best friend, your very own father or mother, maybe even unfortunately your wife or husband could be gay or bisexual and you will never have a clue.
But that’s honest and the Pig should never be that honest.
They just came out with a Gay demogrphic report. Only 5% of the total Gay people in America live in the Gay meccas LA, San Francisco, New York, etc etc.
Most live in the fly-over states.
In other words “Madge, you’re soaking in it.”
My disturbing video, let me show you it.
Also, on an irrelevant (and irreverent) note: Carvel’s ring.
Oh man that is some video.
I wonder if these purity balls are popular in part because they’re being sold as a gesture of respect from fathers to daughters. Now I know that many of the ways that’s problematic have been discussed here, but still, I do think there’s a strong absence in our culture of engaged emotional relationships between fathers and daughters.
And since girls are always being told that they will end up with a man who treats them as their father does, I can see where the rhetoric of respect might sound very tempting to pre-pubescent and teenage girls.
Which, IMO, just makes it more imperative that as a culture we focus more on the father - daughter relationship and on strengthening emotional bonds that do not put the daughter in sexual, economic, emotional, political, religious, or physical servitude to the father.
Because I really think that for many of these daughters, there’s a real draw in feeling like they’re a) pleasing their fathers, 2) supposedly being respected, and c) being protected by their fathers. I won’t compare it to the love of the borderline bully alpha in Romance, but those purity ceremonies may be a sort of fantasy fulfillment for the daughter. Except that these fantasies DO have real life consequences that are not necessarily positive.
Qadesh said on...Gag! I think I’m about to spew.
Am I the only one who worries about the mental health and development of these young women in the coming years? Because I see lots of confused angry women in the future.
There were several points I found very interesting from that article, beyond the “covering” and all.
“In fact, in the parlance of the purity ball folks, one-on-one time with dad is a “date,” and the only sanctioned one a girl can have until she is “courted” by a man.”
So not only are these young women not supposed to have sex, they are also not supposed to date or have any relationship with males their own age? *snort* Yeah, right. And if that isn’t bad enough, the only dates she can have are with her father? This thing gets worse and worse.
““I applaud your courage to look your daughter in the eye and tell her how beautiful she is.”
Can someone tell me why it takes courage to look your daughter in the eye and tell her that she is beautiful? That should be an easy no brainer.
“Still, Christy doesn’t want to date. She associates sex outside of marriage as a girl “getting used, betrayed, having guys deceive you, all that kind of thing.””
Can you say warped view of the male gender? She thinks every male is out to deceive and betray her? While some men will do that with or without sex being in the mix, it is a horrible way to view men in general. And there isn’t any way to disabuse her of that notion, because she won’t have anything to do with guys until dear daddy tells her it is OK! She has no frame of reference.
“...that experience with relationships, bumps and all, can help young women mature emotionally and become ready for sex and marriage, he warily concedes that’s true. “But there can be damage, too,” he says. “I guess we’d rather err on the side of avoiding these things. The girl can learn after marriage.””
Obviously they believe it is best to shelter these women all the time. Well what happens if Mommy and Daddy aren’t there to help her? It’s going to be messy.
“But the real challenge, in my mind, is for a father to remain loving toward his daughter and at the same time nurture her autonomy. The purity movement is, in essence, about refusing to let girls grow up: Daddy’s girls never have to be adults.”
Exactly. It makes you wonder what the future will hold for these young women. I can see them 10-15 years down the road, when their marriages aren’t what they hoped, or if they break their pledge and are terrified their father won’t love them any more.
And don’t get me started on the sociological ramifications for this shit. Because then I may actually spew for real!
Having not read the rest of the comments (eek 73)…
Am I the only person who sees MAJOR incestuous undertones in this? I mean, I doubt it’s deliberate but still… it’s creepy as all fuck.
Thank you, Sam. I overreacted. And yes, the double standard bugs me, too.
Ick. It’s not particularly subtle about the incest and women-are-property-not-people subtexts, is it?
No, not all Christians think like this. But those of us who are just getting on with our lives aren’t visible, *because* we’re not shoving our religion in other people’s faces. All we can do is say when stuff like this comes up—“No, this is not Christian behaviour. This is cherry-picking the Bible for excuses to do what you want to do anyway.”
Baconsmom said on...I heard about this long ago, and was appalled.
Thing is, it’s part of a larger societal problem. And not just with people who label themselves “Christian”, either - it’s a problem in American society at large. We tell girls and women that they’re not in control of their sexuality, that they don’t own their own bodies, every day. Turn on the TV at any time of day or night, and you might see the T-Mobile “My Five” commercial with the father telling his teen daughter’s date that “I’m right next to you on her five. It’s like I’m watching you - all the time.”
Because obviously, he owns his daughter’s body, and this teen boy had better not sully his property.
Or the opposite message - “BE SEXY” - screamed from every fashion ad and every teen soap at ear-splitting volume.
Or the slut-wear for six-year-olds on sale at every major department store.
We’re told what to be, whether by our fathers, our friends, or the media. But very few people are speaking out to tell young women that THEY should decide what they like, what they don’t, and how they should be treated. It’s a sneaky, insidious form of sexism that I think is too often ignored in favor of other ridiculousness that isn’t, in the end, damaging at all.
It’s not about “Christians” vs. the rest of the population - it’s about a pervasive attitude about women that we all encounter every day, and that we need to consistently rail against - and hopefully, these girls will have daughters who will be able to grow up in a culture that values them for more than their hymens.
The only thing I have to add to this discussion is an incident that recently occurred in my neighborhood. A thirty-two-year-old woman whose mother often trumpeted her pride that her daughter was “saving herself for marriage” was married in a very big ceremony on 7/7/07 (that being a very auspicious date for marrying and all) to a guy she’d dated for several years.
They took a long romantic cruise for their honeymoon and returned to an annulment. It seems he wasn’t interested in sex and was surprised to find that she expected it.
Of course, I felt sorry for her, but a little impatient, too. How on earth could anyone approach something as important as marriage without EVER addressing the issue of sex? [shakes head sadly]
If I ever began to talk with my father about my virginity, or lack thereof, he’d immediately find something important to do in the garage.
And this, I think, is the appropriate fatherly reaction.
While this is funny, and likely true for many father/daughter relationships, I wish it wasn’t. My dad often made attempts to talk to me on the topic. He was awkward and uncomfortable as hell, and I could tell he’d been practically scripted by my step-mom but I still appreciated that he gave it the ole college try.
Re: birth control pills for middle schoolers. While I’m all for providing them birth control methods, am I the only one worried about the long term effects of giving hormones to what are still essentially developing children? Has that been addressed anywhere? The article says “The health center would not offer birth control pills to girls who have not gone through puberty” but does the girl have to be done with puberty or just kinda mostly done? And how do you determine that? Puberty and development is a long process, and it’s hard to put a cap on it and say “You’re done!”
Lorelie, while I would also be concerned about the effect of hormones in growing girls, I don’t see that many alternatives myself. Condoms do put the protection in the hands--so to speak--of the male, aside from putting a lot of pressure on both of them to keep a cool enough head during a particularly heated moment to remember to protect themselves.
With that said, offering neither condoms/pills nor education? There’s no word in my vocabulary to convey just how wrong/stupid/criminal that would be.
Condoms do put the protection in the hands--so to speak--of the male
*Snort* Hehehehehehehehe
Yes, but making their use a requirement and knowing how they are used is his and her responsibility.
The pill is a great back-up but with STDs it is useless.
At first I thought they had an actual ball, like before I read the thing and it’s a BALL. But man, do those dads have some balls--brass ones.
It is very skeevy--like get your mind out of your daughters crotch, man! Especially ironic is that those very same dudes were probably exploiting the hell out of girls when they were teens (and older). The old “do as I say and not as I do” adage fast at work.
It’s all so creepy. If only they put this energy into something that would help society…
we know a girl who was into this whole purity thing. She got married at the age of 16. Now THERE’S the answer.
Condoms do put the protection in the hands--so to speak--of the male
Heehee!
But why, just ‘cause it’s his appendage? Back in my wild and crazy salad days, I always carried and never had a guy tell me no. I had one or two tell me “it’s better without” but they soon forgot what they were trying to say when I made the application part of the foreplay.
I know, they’re twelve and foreplay isn’t really tops on their list. Sheesh, the problems implicit in the whole question are like that ouroboros snake, going ‘round and ‘round
And now on a lighter not from
The New York Post ~ PSST - ASK YOUR KID ABOUT S-E-X
No one told me anything about condoms, KY, the pill, or even how to do the actual act itself. I had a general idea from reading, but little else.
I was “pure” by reason of insane ignorance. Of course that was at a time when the worst that could happen was pregnancy or a curable case of the clap.
I waited until my wedding night like a good little girl.
Wish I hadn’t.
Didn’t enjoy it until the bum rolled over to sleep, and I could watch the Carson show in peace while wondering “That’s IT? THAT’S what the fuss is about? What a gyp.”
One divorce later and my life (on all levels!) improved considerably!
Down with ignorance.
Oldie-but-hottie - I had to read your first sentence twice and ask myself, “What does Kentucky have to do with sex?” LOL!
But the BC in the middle school thing? The middle school runs a public health clinic. It’s about making the clinic’s services comparable to the other PH clinics in the area.
Dragonette said on...And then there’s me, who thinks some form of birth control should be mandatory for the young and dumb.
What Dragonette said.
NPR a couple of years ago had a series about divorce. This centered around a survey done by the Barna Research Group released in 1999. The conclusion was:
bullet 11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
bullet 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
bullet Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.
Note that mainline Christians have a much lower divorce rate than conservative protestant christians.
One conclusion was that young conservative christians tended to marry early to accommodate those pesky sexual urges of adolescence and their religious teaching and ended up making a bad choice.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
Sorry, I should have given the source.
Yeeow. That’s a very interesting study on divorce rates.
OK, I’ve never been married, but I’d like to suggest an additional reason why “conservative evangelical” Christians have higher divorce rates.
I live in Dallas, TX, so I’ve known and worked with many such. My experience has been that some - NOT ALL - are highly judgmental and critical people. Maybe those that are carry this behavior over to their marriages. I imagine it wouldn’t make for a happy home life.
Nanna said on...I didn’t even know abstinence was an option until I started making online friends overseas when I was about 19. In The Netherlands it’s all birth control, all the time. And though those with religious families probably were taught abstinence at home, I never came into contact with the concept through regular sex ed. And I think that that’s a shame too, because if you really want to empower (gosh, I do so hate that word) girls and women, they need to know ALL their options. Abstinence wouldn’t have been the thing for me, but if I’d been wired differently, then who knows?
The concept of purity balls is just plain creepy, however.
Re: the birth control in middle school… I don’t know how I feel about it exactly. The idea that girls of that age actually need birth control is not sitting well with me. But the fact is that even the smartest hormone-influenced girl can slip up. I dodged a bullet once myself, when I was temporarily off the pill and very, very drunk. I actually dodged two bullets (both pregnancy and STD). Ugh, I don’t know…
Word: Public82. Yes, the US needs good public sex ed that covers all angles.
Problem with that is, why should a girl have to rely on the guy she’s with to use contraception? That’s like taking the responsibility out of her own hands.
Why? Girls can’t buy condoms (or in this case, pick up free ones), or insist that guys use them? I’ve never had
11.01.07 at 08:59 AM |