Smart Bitches Trashy Books | All of the romance, none of the bullshit.

Hmmm.  Now I wanna know what titles you’ve read.  Besides the threesomes (and the paranormal sniffing thingie, which I have heard of but not seen, since I don’t read paranormal), I can’t say I have noticed any of the other issues that you describe, at least not enough to consider it part of a ‘formula’ (let me add I love reading 3-somes, I recommend Anne Douglas!).  Rather, the ‘man’ and the branding thingie seem to be an issue in contemp/paranormal (specifically Ward and Bird, funny how they are the same author, grin).  I’ll make an ass out of myself and assume that you’ve read a lot of EC titles?  I gave up on those really quickly.

Growlyclub, babe!

Why would you assume Sarah read a lot of EC titles?

So *this* is Sandra Lee?!

Oh boy…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awCHJSfZWd8

Because I thought they are available for the Kindle and because the quality on the ones I read was (except in a very few cases) rather less than what I could have wished for (both in plot and editing).  That’s why I stopped buying from EC.

As a side note, I just looked at Amazon and was rather surprised to see Emma and Pride and Prejudice listed under Kindle erotica… go figure.

Me, I stick to authors I like and follow them around publishing houses if they write in diverse genres. Actually, I don’t forsake entire publishing houses but I do put authors on my do-not-buy list. Sometimes, I’ll try a new author, regardless of what I think of the pub, and if I like him/her, hey, bonus!

Does that mean you have a Kindle, Growlyclub? And if so, are you satisfied with it? I’m looking at buying an e-reading device and they all seem pretty “Beta version” to me.

Sarah—Try some Megan Hart contemporary stuff from Harlequin. Most of hers are one-on-one and actual believable scenarios. No extra sniffing involved.

Actually, no I don’t have one, Nathalie. Sorry if it sounded that
way.  I have seen and read a few pages on one though and if it weren’t for the proprietary format and the price I would have been very tempted.

I want an e-reader that doesn’t tie me to a proprietary format and costs a whole lot less.  I read e-books on my 10” laptop which works okay, if not as comfortable as it could be.  And yeah, if a favorite author were to write for EC I might check the title out.  I started my e-book reading career with EC titles and found some authors I really liked, but also ended up with a rather larger number of not so great works, but one should never say never, you are right!

Yeah, I read on the laptop of PC as well. The price is a big thing since I’ll probably use mine solely for reading and not multitasking as phone, etc. I absolutely agree about Kindle and its proprietary linking system. Hostage situation, anyone?

About never saying never: I tried romance back in my teen years, came across some pretty dumb heroines, implausible plots and arrogant/rapist “heroes”, and thought, that’s it for romance. It ALL sucks French poodle ass. Then a few years ago, I came across this here site and Dear Author, and started to read comments about books that sounded pretty damn aweseome. And they were romance! So I gave it another try, found some true gems, stumbled across some shit along the way. But I’m still reading romance and now all these kickass sub-genres filled with sexy, gun-totting heroines and handsome, Matrix-dressed heroes. Romance is COOL, dude!

Am I glad I found this site! Thanks to Victoria Dahl :)

*ROLLING* Ah, the Laurel K. Hamiltons novels which this describes!

I must admit, I really don’t read a lot of erotica. Why? Because the scenarios are so damn implausible and unbelievable, i spend more time laughing that anything else.

I like my stories to have just that- a storyline. If it doesn’t hold up without the sex, BAM! against the wall. And it has just gotten to the point now, where IMHO, everyone is just trying to out-sex everyone else. Who can do what to whom, with what, how many time and how many body appendages. Or other things.

Now, I am not slamming anyone here who writes erotic romance. Don’t even go there. It’s just me. If I want to read a book full of sex, I’ll go read a LKHamilton. At least they are characters I have grown to know and understand.

I just prefer storyline to Man, smelly, babe, sex.

GrowlyCub, I feel the same as you about proprietary formats and e-readers. I’m looking into the BeBook reader myself, since the price is decent, and it supports a myriad of formats (although I’ll wait until they release the version that includes Mobipocket, since I already have purchased a few books in that format, or maybe the end of the year when they are intending to include WiFi).

And I must add I am glad I am not the only one who can’t stand Sandra, or for that matter, Giada. They make me want to shoot myself.

Oh, goody, another electronic format to add to the mix of trying to figure out what I want. sigh

My husband and I watch Sandra Lee avidly and laugh hysterically at each episode. That Christmas tree is the funniest thing I’ve ever seen. If I didn’t have a four year old I would do it in a heartbeat.

I too would like to purchase an e-book reader, but the price will have to come down substantially. Especially since like most technology the darned things will be obsolete in less than five years.

Ev, I’m with you—I’d rather read a good romance with kinky, horny sex than a load of kinky, horny, very-nearly-impossible sex patched together with a poorly thought out (and overly detailed) plot.  My list of favorite authors has adjusted itself accordingly.

I also have to admit to watching “Semi-Ho” everytime I visit my parents—my mom and I can sit and mock her for hours on end (provided the alcohol is flowing free and strong).

I like my erotica to have cracktastic plots.  I just hope the Spice readers like it, too.

Hot eunuch-on-eunuch action!  What more could one ask?

I’ve been frustrated with erotic romance of late, but couldn’t really put my finger on why. Sarah has nailed it—I totally agree with her take on the Sandra Lee-esque style of erotica. It’s bad when I find myself skipping over the sex because it’s so unbelievable, and wishing someone would die (even a character I might like) or a new hero would emerge or something drastic would happen to shake up the formulaic storyline.

Lately, I find myself being more concerned about the typos, font issues, and other copyediting snafus I come across in books. In my opinion, e-books are notoriously poorly copyedited, and I’ve come this close on numerous occasions to emailing a publishing house to offer my services. ;-)

Is anyone else bothered by Sandra Lee’s need to color coordinate her kitchen and kitchen appliances in every episode? Wish I had that many different KitchenAid stand mixers. All for show, never used… sigh.

There’s nothing more erotic than being turned on and having the dude who turned you on inform you that he could tell each and every time you were turned on in the past four years since you moved into the apartment next door, and what is it about QVC that gets your love honey flowing, anyway?

SNORT! I love you.

Growlyclub, babe!

Why would you assume Sarah read a lot of EC titles?

Good point, they could be Amber Quill or Cobblestone

Down with the manwich!

Brought to you by The Union of Unemployed Beasts with Two Backs.

Heh! My two least favorite pop culture phenomena are paranormal romance and Sandra Lee. I must now go read some Hamilton ASAP to see if it is really as bad as all that.
 
Also, if you have never seen Sandra Lee’s Kwanzaa cake “recipe”. . .
http://randomaccessbabble.com/2006/11/sandra-lee-is-foods-natural-enemy.html

Your welcome.

Sarah, you had me falling over laughing too early in the morning, when I should be packing for Nationals. 

I keep trying erotica because my friends swear it’s good, but the scenting, the 3 somes, 4 somes, etc., that first sex scene with the guy she’s going to break up with—are dead boring.  And if you skip over the sex - then you can finish the book in about 14 minutes. 

They’re too much like men’s porn movies, sex with a tiny sprinkling of ‘plot’ to make them acceptable.  If they are straight up porn, then so be it.  I have moved all mine out of the house via paperbookswap.  I’m also wary now of the term, ‘erotic novel,’ as I now believe it is code for no plot.

I’m sticking with sexier contemporaries for plot and steam in equal proportions.

And you can bet your sweet bippy he’ll be putting baby in the corner

bwahahahahahaha That right there had me laughing so hard my 6 year old wanted to know what was so funny.

I love this post.  You nailed it.

I’m totally with you on the whole e-reader makes picky customer thing.  Authors (and pubs) need to realize that readers have nearly unlimited choices now, so the recycled cookie-cutter amateur stuff just ain’t gonna cut it anymore.

The next time I read about a man smelling like sandalwood, I’m gonna throw up.  Have you ever smelled that shit?

And don’t get me started on the heroines that smell like peaches.

As an author whose three erotic romance novellas have been variously described as “mechanical” and “too vanilla,” and who has gotten so bored trying to read what passes for it at this stage of the erotica/erotic romance boom I can use the stuff in place of sleeping pills, I can only suggest that people use the ratings most ebook publishers have to alert buyers to the level of the nasty their books contain. And the definitions therefor, because one publisher’s three is another’s five.

For the most part, the lower-rated books are, in my experience, heavier on plot and character, and contain fewer libidinous cliches, than their “scorching hot” counterparts.

But even that won’t guarantee quality. And sadly, the reason there’s so much of what Sarah describes has one basis: it sells. Like crazy. And don’t you dare call it porn, even though some of it is too raunchy even for Penthouse forum.

the Kama Sutra tablescape you constructed with coathangers, some Chinese silk remnants, those web-and-flower-sparkle slippers that everyone wore two years ago, a peace lily, and a bowling ball.

Dude - that’s WAAAAAAAAY too subtle to be an erotic romance tablescape.  Throw in a giant dildo (maybe one of the ones with sparkles in the silicone!), some bricks (to symbolize the wall of a building that everyone has sex up against by Chapter 2) and a bunch of chunks of Fake Fur (yay coy beastiality!).

less83?  No, less is not more for Semi-Ho.  but 83 grams of Sodium per serving sounds about right . . .

I also have to admit to watching “Semi-Ho” everytime I visit my parents—my mom and I can sit and mock her for hours on end (provided the alcohol is flowing free and strong).

Maybe this is my problem- not enough alcohol to watch her. I will need to try it that way.

Is anyone else bothered by Sandra Lee’s need to color coordinate her kitchen and kitchen appliances in every episode? Wish I had that many different KitchenAid stand mixers. All for show, never used… sigh.

You forgot the matching outfits and booze too.

I must now go read some Hamilton ASAP to see if it is really as bad as all that.

i actually like Hamilton and the sex is all part of the plot and her ever increasing powers that bridge the Vampire and Were world. But sometimes there is just waaaaaay too much of it.

shown57- yes so far she has shown at least 57 ways to do it with a vamp, were or any combination there of

The only erotica (is it the same thing as erotic romance…?) I’ve read so far was “Natural Law” by Joey W. Hill because it was so highly recommended and raved about.  The book was excellent, and I just ordered “The Vampire Queen’s Servant” by the same author.  I’d probably read even more erotica, but I’m pretty picky about what I spend my money on and reeeaally hate when I’m wanting to skip past sex scenes because they’ve gotten tedious, and it seems like that could happen way too easily in the plot-deprived world of erotic romance.

Still reading all the comments, so if someone else pointed this out I’m haven’t gotten that far yet.

My own drinking game to Sandra Lee involves sipping every time she says the word “just.” She must say that word a couple hundred times per episode and it JUST drives me nuts.

Also, in addition to the over-the-top tablescapes, how about the fact that she matches the decor of her kitchen to her outfits?

What timing! I’m reading this right after reading & reviewing Bertrice Small’s “Dangerous Pleasures.” After reading about her best-selling status and history of winning awards I was expecting to enjoy the book, but wow, did I not. It read almost exactly like what you’re describing here. Everything other than the sex felt like it was just there to move you to the sex scenes. It was about the quality I’d have expected if I’d found the sex scenes presented separately on an internet erotica site, and definitely not what I expect from a book that supposedly has a plot.

By the way, you’re making me want to watch Sandra Lee just for the amusement value… maybe after looking up that drinking game, though!

Good lord!  Where are you finding these??  All I’ve ever seen is the paranormal sniff test.

Enquiring minds want to know: is the brand-name-dropping instructive (heroine prefers the Bullet to the Rabbit)?  Is it critical (relatively drizzlability of Godiva versus Hershey’s chocolate syup)?  Is it pop-culture referential (heroine likes to watch The Daily Show on TiVo during the act)?

Ha! This is hilarious, Sarah. I have to admit to avoiding most erotic romance, purely because I’ve heard so many complaints about the poorly-written variety. The only two I’ve read are Fairyville by Emma Holly and Broken by Megan Hart, and they both were so good, I fear I’ve been ruined for all other erotic romances. (Especially Broken, which subverted lots of romance tropes in a very interesting, effective way.)

*ROLLING* Ah, the Laurel K. Hamiltons novels which this describes!

No, no, In the LKH books, she uses “Spilled” in every third paragraph. All sorts of things spill—including things you wouldn’t think Could spill…

And, like ev, I LIKE the Hamilton Kool-aid, but sometimes it does get a bit too much.

I’m very very very picky when it comes to erotic romance/erotica. I’ve read a few I liked. I’ve read a few I didn’t like. I don’t think I’ve read enough to have picked up on trends like this.

Aside: for those who have managed to avoid Sandra Lee (I usually only watch Food Network at night, and then for Good Eats and Iron Chef), check out this thread.

Uh-oh. (Frantically flipping through the pages of my story.) Phew. No manwiches, peaches or vanilla. It is however time for lunch.

Maybe sometime you could post a new rant on the conventions of paranormals that incite you to violence.

You mean aside from interspecies pregnancy?

I wish there were a better way to tell from the covers how pornoriffic a book is going to be, since the vanilla romance oversell their sexiness and the “I cribbed chunks of this from Penthouse” books often have completely vanilla-looking covers. I guess the little hotness ratings on the ebooks is a big advantage for that format, though I’d like some extra markings - pointy kitty ears for books where people turn into animals, and rows of tiny penises to indicate the maximum number of orifices filled at once in each book, maybe? Because I am *so* over the manbeast thing, but I would read a book rated |||| even though people don’t even *have* 4 orifices.

Have any of you read Pat Murphy’s book Nadya? It always gets shelved with the fantasy because she’s a SF writer, but it’s actually a bisexual crossdressing historical werewolf western. Sadly non-explicit, but otherwise perfect.

Oooh oooh oooh!  I feel like a young girl again, waving my hand wildly in the classroom.  I enjoyed this post and was looking up some Megan Hart and Anne Douglas books, when Amazon.com directed me to some author named Elizabeth Amber who writes erotic historical paranormal romance (the non-vampire type).  I have never, ever done this, but I just bought this Satyr trilogy of hers all in one swoop.  Apparently, the third book just happened to publish today.  It looks fantastic, and I haaaaaate paranormals (no vampires, werewolves or demons for me, thank you very much) but I can handle faeries and mythological creatures, I think.  I read a Publisher’s Weekly review that said this was a totally new market.  Has anyone else read her yet?

Has anyone else read her [Elizabeth Amber] yet?

Ask Teddypig about that one. :)  Just yesterday he was applauding Ms. Amber’s erotic descriptions of “breast milk as sexual aid”.

OK, I am still new to the romance genre - was a fantasy geek forever, started reading romance when my grandmother started recommending them. So saying that, I am finding myself confused:  the is romance, there is erotic romance, and there is erotica. What’s the distinction? Where is the line drawn? Help. Ya’ll are awesome with the recommendations.

Pardon while I oversimplify for clarity:
In my own head, there is romance with “off camera” sex, romance with “on camera” sex and both of these are plot driven stories with various levels of sex (“vanilla” to “hardcore”) in the appropriate points of the story.
Erotica is basically sex scenes maybe held together with a plot, depending on whether you are reading short stories or full novels. I have, what I feel is, more experience with this genre having read a number of books from publishers like Black Lace or Circlet Press or Cleis Press.

My confusion is where does erotic romance fall between the two? Any thoughts or opinions would be welcome.
Oh and yes, I’ve read LKH, so I do understand the reference. I remember when she used to be shelved in Horror.  I have no idea what I’d classify her as these days.

Sarah, I agree with you whole heartedly!!  Everything you describe is why I can’t totally get into the erotica without thinking “how the hell are they doing that?”  Also, when you are dishing on anything, you make me laugh my ass off.

where does erotic romance fall between the two? Any thoughts or opinions would be welcome.

As you said: between the two.  Ideally, both the romance and the sex scenes are tightly woven into the story.  Some erotic romance is more successful as erotica, some as romance.  Or neither: sometimes a hybrid genre bellyflops.

It’s probably similar to what you called romance with hardcore sex.  Though in my experience, in erotic romance you might find more books that bend the genre’s rules—e.g. some erotic romance publishers are looser about requiring a happily-ever-after, or a HEA between *two* people, or a man and a woman.  (Though obviously I haven’t read everything; I’ve never run across a can of Folger’s in a sex scene!)

Gawd, I’m so glad I’m not the only one who finds her annoying as hell. 

I don’t consider anything she does worthy of a film crew.  But there’s something stepfordwifey about her that drives me absolutely buggy.

Me, I stick to authors I like and follow them around publishing houses if they write in diverse genres. Actually, I don’t forsake entire publishing houses but I do put authors on my do-not-buy list.

I’m starting to wish publishers would disclose a book’s editor on its buy-page. Not only would that make it easier to find books I might like (once I decide an editor has tastes that match mine) but it would help me weed out books with atrocious typos and obvious grammatical errors—that sometimes occur on EVERY EFFING PAGE, and which never fail to drag me kicking and screaming right out of a story—before I buy them.

Sherry Thomas said:

Down with the manwich!

I’m writing a m/m/f right now, and I’m not even planning a manwich scene. (At least, not one with girl filling, hehe.) They just don’t do a lot for me, even vicariously speaking *ahem*.

Sarah, I have noticed many of your gripes apply only to contemp and paranormal, neither of which I write, or particularly enjoy reading. I’m curious, have you read much historical or traditional fantasy erotic romance?

If you want good, plot-driven erotica, try Charlene Teglia.  If you want good erotic romance (historical) try Robin Schone.

Other than that, all I can say is that this column was truly spew-worthy!  Thanks for the best laugh I’ve had in days.

Oh baby—I’m swearing off of angel food and Manwich sauce for life! (ROFLMFAO!)

But not erotica.  Because somewhere out there—and you know’em when you find’em, there are authors that write characters and plot, and that recognize that sex is part of fully developed characters, and then you’ll be reading and reading “and you’ll realize suddenly that you’re not reading for character development or to further the plot, you’re reading for the “Oooooooooh.” “

(I quoted a friend of mine for that last part—but it was a good quote, and I couldn’t let it exist in the obscurity of my e-mail.) 

Anyway—I know exactly what you mean, but I will remain ever hopeful.  Some characters just stick with you.  Some threesomes are real.  Some mansexin just gets a girl right…well, wherever you’re imagine me pointing, that’s where it gets a girl.  You just hold on and hope you find the right ones, that’s why.  (Sort of like dating, but with your Kindle!)

Damn European time zones, I’m always late to reply, but will anyway. Actually, I have questions for those who’ve been in the romance community longer than I have. Bear with me, it’s early and my head, it is all explody, as Scalzi says.

What I’ve been reading about erotic romance in this thread reminds me of what I used to think of romance as a whole. Thin plots barely able to hold the story, romance for the sake of romance because there has to be a lot of it to qualify, improbable and infuriating characters, etc. Replace manwich with clinch, were/vamp with sheik/pirate, sex with sexual tension. It’s like some in the science fiction/fantasy (SF/F) community getting worked up over the difference in “hard” SF, space opera, “soft” SF, etc. I think you have to be *in* the genre to even recognize the sometimes subtle differences. So to me, only those within romance can even appreciate (or not) the standard parameters in erotic romance. To me, it’s all the same, it’s all under the big umbrella of romance, except with more sex than some other stories.

When I started writing romance not that long ago, I didn’t know much about it. Still don’t. I learn every day. Yay for the SB! But I’ll tell you what, it’s helluva much larger inside than how it appears on the outside! And I love it! For example, my first romance novel? I killed the hero at the end. Good thing I had an experienced romance author revise my manuscript before I sent it to publishing houses. She told me “Dude, you can’t kill your hero in a romance!” I said, shocked “Dude?” To which she replied, sagely “Dude.” I learned about the expectations of a happy ever after from the part of romance readers, that you can’t, as author R.A. Salvatore tends to do (damn him, I love him), kill the main dude. The couple/trio/baker’s dozen, finish together in the end. And you know, it makes sense.

Another example of how someone outside the genre wouldn’t know the difference between an erotic romance and a romance (if there’s one). When I won an RT award this spring and made a complete moron of myself getting up on-stage (afterward SB Sarah came over to hug me and didn’t even laugh, bless her), I called all my SF/F writing buddies and let my inner Chihuahua take complete control. After a while, one of the guys asked me “What’s RT?” For a second, I was “But! But! RT, man, Ahrr-Tee!!!” Much linkage from me to them ensued, this site/blog first and foremost. Now they know.

So my questions become: what does it matter if a book is classified romance, erotic romance, whatever? I know there has to be some sort of shelving aides. I don’t want to spend 2 hours looking for stuff that’s in alphabetical order only (although a place I know is like that and I’ve discovered quite a few authors new-to-me). But that’s what titles, covers, and especially blurbs are for (even blurbs that don’t work well, they still tell you if it’s a mystery, SF/F, horror and so on). But why all these “warnings” and ratings on romance books? If it’s a romance, you *know* the couple/trio/baker’s dozen will end up together. Why is it so important *how* they’ll get there? Isn’t that why we read in the first place, to get a ride, get a rush, experience something new to us?

As far as I’m concerned, when a story sucks, it’s the author’s fault. Not the genre, sub-genre, editor, publisher or the neighbor’s dog for barking all night. When a book sucks, I think *that* author, in *that* particular book, fucked up. Simply not my taste. If I read another book by that same author and it still doesn’t make my inner Chihuahua chase her tail with savage glee, then that’s it for that author. But I’ll keep reading in the genre no matter how much French poodle ass some of the books suck.

Damn, I’ve never posted such a long comment anywhere before. I’ll go back to lurking now. Before I go, the SB, they rock!

LKH, so I do understand the reference. I remember when she used to be shelved in Horror.  I have no idea what I’d classify her as these days.

she is still in horror.

she is still in horror.

Which is not entirely inappropriate, given the quality of the sex scenes.

This is a really interesting discussion to read for me.

I do my romance/porn reading for free on the net, in a fandom which has a lot of quality writing.  And there’s really no distinction at all there between romance and erotica as different genres.  There are just stories with more or less sex in them.  Some people, but by no means all, will label their stories with NC-17 or similar, to point out the explicit ones, but there’s no conceptual divide.  A lot of authors write both explicit and non-explicit stories, and I’d say that most readers don’t have a very strong preference for one or the other either.  Which of course means that if you do like a lot of sex in your stories, or you don’t, there’s really no way of finding appropriate stories other than to follow particular authors or get recs.

It’s very interesting to see a different way of doing it.  I’m trying to imagine how my popslash webpage, or other people’s web pages, would look divided up into romance or erotica genres.  I think I’d find it pretty difficult, as there are a lot which would fall into a grey area (lots of plot and romance, but also very explicit).

Cool.

And if you skip over the sex - then you can finish the book in about 14 minutes. They’re too much like men’s porn movies, sex with a tiny sprinkling of ‘plot’ to make them acceptable.

the is romance, there is erotic romance, and there is erotica. What’s the distinction?

If you can skip over the sex in an erotic romance then a) it must be bad sex, and b) I’m not surprised it only takes 14 minutes.  Because the point of an erotic romance is that the sex is part of the romance.  It’s not erotica—sex with no romance—and it sure as hell isn’t porn (sex with no plot).

Think of a good romantic historical, or romantic suspense.  If you took out historical frocks and carriages, or the mystery/suspense elements, would that romance still exist?  If the answer is yes, then the historical or suspense parts of the story are entirely gratuitous.

The same goes with erotic romance.  The sex should never be gratuitous, it should be part of the story and the developing romance.  Otherwise it’s just there to titivate.

As for threesomes, I’m constantly being begged by my editor for more.  They sell.  My biggest sales have been with ménage titles.  But I don’t do a lot of them, for exactly the reasons Sarah mentioned.  I’m writing a romance, and as Charles and Diana could have told you, three is not a romantic number.  So I’ve got to try and think of a way these three people are going to work together, in the long or short term.  Is the third party just there for funsies?  Does he strengthen the relationship of the original couple (incidentally, check out Cris Anson’s A Third Party for a great example of a couple +1).  Or can you see these three people actually making a life together?

Calling a romantic partner ‘baby’ makes me feel icky.  It’s infantilising someone you’re having sex with.  Ew.  I remember giggling over this very endearment with friends when I was a teenager.  It was one of the things that was so terrible about the romances we read.

Scent in erotic romances.  Well, if you’re writing werewolves, scent is important.  Ask your dog.  But I’m not a huge fan of it otherwise (the whole ‘scent of her arousal’ thing just makes me reel slightly queasy).  In my first book I had one character tell her werewolf buddy that going around sniffing people was kind of gross.

And brand names?  Let me finish my Diet Coke and I’ll get back to you.

I do my romance/porn reading for free on the net, in a fandom which has a lot of quality writing.  And there’s really no distinction at all there between romance and erotica as different genres.  There are just stories with more or less sex in them.

That’s an excellent point, Ms. Manna. Since you mentioned popslash, I don’t think we’re in the same fandom, but all of the fandoms I’ve read have not only had this lack of a divide, but even the PWP stories (Porn Without Plot or “Plot? What Plot?”) use the sex scenes to explore the characters. How those characters behave during sex, what they say and do, is used to illuminate their thoughts, etc., just like in a non-sex scene.

Perhaps that’s what I liked so much about Fairyville and Broken: the sense that I was learning about the characters even though they were “just” having sex. *ponders*

I’m trying to imagine how my popslash webpage, or other people’s web pages, would look divided up into romance or erotica genres./quote]

Most of the sexual content of my eXtasy stuff isn’t all that much more graphic than one scene in Dreams of Darkness; it’s that the focus on it is, for want of a better word, more intense.

As for multiple personalities, I opted to use the nom de plume Dymitia for the novellas for the specific purpose of differentiating those from my more mainstream stuff. If I ever manage to get a website up (yeah, I know. I’ll get it done as soon as they perfect human cloning), I’ll certainly have a “Dymitia section” with the required adults-only warning, which is how most writers I know handle it.

what does it matter if a book is classified romance, erotic romance, whatever? I know there has to be some sort of shelving aides. I don’t want to spend 2 hours looking for stuff that’s in alphabetical order only (although a place I know is like that and I’ve discovered quite a few authors new-to-me).

Yes, the divisions are primarily about marketing/shelving.

But why all these “warnings” and ratings on romance books? If it’s a romance, you *know* the couple/trio/baker’s dozen will end up together. Why is it so important *how* they’ll get there? Isn’t that why we read in the first place, to get a ride, get a rush, experience something new to us?

I don’t think that’s universal.  It sounds like I read like you—I want an adventure with the *author* in control, even if it goes somewhere I’m not sure I like.  And if the author convinces me I like it after all, that’s the best read of all.

However, manymany readers don’t like surprises.  The more specific the blurbs, the better; the more solid the expectation of the happy ending, the better.  It’s a whole different style of selecting books.

I can’t say I like *all* surprises—I do skim blurbs and first chapters before I buy!  But I don’t read blurbs—or reviews—that are heavy on plot.  Apart from not wanting to know it all ahead of time, I’m more interested in the writing style, the atmosphere, and the subject matter.

I keep trying erotica because my friends swear it’s good, but ... if you skip over the sex - then you can finish the book in about 14 minutes. 

They’re too much like men’s porn movies, sex with a tiny sprinkling of ‘plot’ to make them acceptable.  ...  I’m also wary now of the term, ‘erotic novel,’ as I now believe it is code for no plot.

Then you’re reading bad ones.  Like any genre.

I want an adventure with the *author* in control, even if it goes somewhere I’m not sure I like.

You know, I’d never seen it that way. It’s true that you do feel it when the author is taking you on a ride in which s/he is in complete control. Conversely, you can smell it a mile away when s/he is not. Regardless of the outcome or the journey there, if you trust the author, then that’s going to be a good story even if it took you places you wouldn’t have gone yourself.

I do skim first chapters too, to make sure that reading a couple of lines of that author’s “voice” won’t make me want to gnaw my arm off. But the thought of having warnings and ratings on romance books makes me scratch my head. What next? Warning people about every instance of coarse language and the exact nature of the conflict so people will know what to expect? I’m just worried books will become “pre-chewed” (that’s a nice image for you) for the readers.

I keep trying erotica because my friends swear it’s good, but ... if you skip over the sex - then you can finish the book in about 14 minutes.

A bad book is a bad book, not a bad genre.

But the
thought of having warnings and ratings on romance books makes me scratch my
head. What next? Warning people about every instance of coarse language and
the exact nature of the conflict so people will know what to expect?

Actually, warnings kind of make sense to me. Lord knows I’ve seen so many Amazon (and other) ‘reviews’ boil down to something like ‘OMG this book had SEX in it!’ or ‘OMG this book had KINKY sex in it!’ The fact is that a lot of people are very specific about the kinds of sex they do (or don’t) feel comfortable reading about… sometimes because of simple preference, sometimes because of prudishness or religious beliefs, and sometimes because of particularly bad past experiences. I think those people should be able to pick a book that will suit their needs. It’s easy enough to just not read those warnings if they’re present and you don’t need them, but it’s a lot harder for readers with certain hangups if they aren’t present. That’s why I always try to give at least some basic idea of whether explicit sex is present in a book I review, and I also tend to mention if it’s something more than plain vanilla, although I don’t go into detail.

Thanks to whichever of you mentioned Pat’s Murphy’s book NADYA. I’d never heard of it, but I remember having read and enjoyed her space opera riff on THE HOBBIT, so I just popped over to Amazon and ordered copies of both of those books.

I’ve managed to steer clear of Sandra Lee, although sadly haven’t avoided erotic romances that are the printed equivalent of her horrors. I’ll gladly sit through hours of her craziness if someone will promise me I won’t be subjected to any more “I can smell you a mile away, baby, and now let’s play dog pile on the wabbit with all the other guys in the pack.”

warnings kind of make sense to me. Lord knows I’ve seen so many Amazon (and other) ‘reviews’ boil down to something like ‘OMG this book had SEX in it!’ or ‘OMG this book had KINKY sex in it!’ The fact is that a lot of people are very specific about the kinds of sex they do (or don’t) feel comfortable reading about

Not just sex: many readers want to know if one of the characters has a particular occupation, or kids, or some physical trait—height, race, weight (e.g. the recent post here looking for plus-size heroines).

That may be a down side of blurbs serving as warnings.  They’re great for finding (or avoiding) something specific, but I think they can also encourage us to be pickier readers.  It gets easy to dismiss a book that doesn’t exactly meet your specs, even if it’s a great story you might enjoy.  I’ve sometimes avoided an author for years because of a preconception, but later realized I’d been missing out needlessly.

subgenres, warnings, etc -  one of the things about porn is you can walk into your neighborhood porn store and say “I want vanilla het threesomes, no ass-to-mouth, no violence.” and they will say “Aisle 3 for all-white, Aisle 4 everybody else, interracial on the endcap.”

For some reason, romance publishers aren’t willing to be that clear on what they’re packaging. So, seriously, Katie Fforde and Emma Holly get the exact same packaging. It can make it hard to find what you’re looking for - or, worse, to avoid things you hate.
If you look at some of the romance review sites, there are a lot of people with very specific dislikes. It can be anything from “Nothing explicit because I share books with my middle school kids” to “rape scenes give me nightmares” to “there’s nothing romantic about infidelity”. That’s what the labeling is about.
And I do think it’s different than the SF/fantasy subgenre distinctions, because sex & love is more highly charged than most anything else. Lois Bujold has said that she deliberately *under*emphasizes the sex scenes in her books, because they’re implicitly “louder” than other scenes to people. I think she’s right.

Which is not entirely inappropriate, given the quality of the sex scenes.

snort.

“I want vanilla het threesomes, no ass-to-mouth, no violence.” and they will say “Aisle 3 for all-white, Aisle 4 everybody else, interracial on the endcap.”

For some reason, romance publishers aren’t willing to be that clear on what they’re packaging.

And my biggest fear is that they may someday do. Nice, little books pre-chewed for us in nice,  little bites.

Pardon the cynicism, can’t help myself.

I had never heard of semi-ho.  Now I’m hooked.

There is a place for sozzled cooking show hosts.  I used to watch the old Graham Kerr show—Galloping Gormet (circa 1970).  He very liberally splashed the wine around and featured such gastronomical wonders (to an appalachian high school kid) as spotted dick—a reference to a std acquired by Richard Whittington in 1407?