Smart Bitches Trashy Books | All of the romance, none of the bullshit.

S.A. - I’m sardonically witty, serious about writing, and I need a critique partner too. I’ll do you if you’ll do me. If you want a sample of my writing, take a look at entry #5 in the DA BWAHA contest (posted March 6). It’s only 200 words, but hey. If that’s enough to win a load of dirty diapers, it should suffice to get me a CP.

I’d try Absolute Write.  Hang around in the romance genre forum and Share Your Work for a while and you’ll soon see who’s serious and who you think you’ll get on with.  Then send them a PM and ask.

I’d try Absolute Write (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums) Hang around in the romance genre forum and Share Your Work for a while and you’ll soon see who’s serious and who you think you’ll get on with.  Then send them a PM and ask.

Jennifer, ain’t that the truth, though? The new group has several published writers and I’m looking forward to at least meeting them and getting their take on “the business”. I have one graduating from college this spring so I might just have some spare funds for a change.  I’ll join RWA this summer and start hanging around the back of the room playing sponge. I’ll also check out the online chapter of RWA as suggested by Darlene.

I’m in a group...the butterscotch martini girls.

Known by this name because of our love for the drink...and chat...and upbuilding association.

I love my group, but last year I moved away from them and it’s much harder not to have the face-to-face, along with the martinis. They’re still there when I need them, but I find it more difficult, because we’re a big group, to critique everyone’s work. Plus I’ve had personal issues. But what really helps is knowing I have them.

Don’t give up...someone is waiting for you.

Brit

And if you don’t find anyone...email me. I write sweet historical romance under another name for a NY publisher.

Brit - who cannot abide the prospect of someone alone out there…

I’m pretty lucky to have an awesome crit group.  Most of us met on the Romance board of OnlineWritingWorkshop.com.  When it went defunct (well, a little before, because we could see which way the wind was blowing) we created a Yahoo group for ourselves. 

There’s about half a dozen of us and we’ve all got our talents.  I’ll find your typos, Carrie’s awesome with character motivation, Kel’s the continuity expert, etc.  Not to say we all write the same or anything - I’m pretty sure one person thinks I cuss waaaay too often.  Having a group rather than a partner makes for good ebb and flow: at any given time *someone* is ready and willing to help, even when you’ve drifted away for a year ‘cause you’ve let real life get in the way.  We’ve picked up members along the way, some have drifted off for good, but there’s always been a core that seems pretty rock solid.

Can you tell I lurve ‘em?  :D

I guess I’m kinda echoing the advice above - haunt a larger list for a while, and look for a person or persons who appeal to you and hit ‘em up.  Ya never know what’ll happen.

I’ve never been able to find a CP for many of the same reasons other people gave. Then I hear about all the people who have wonderful, warm fuzzy CPs and feel like I must be missing out on something big… but it seems like it’s one of those things that happens naturally or doesn’t.

Kate

I’ve noticed significant numbers of successful writers list their critique group on acknowledgement/dedication page. For writers that have found the chemistry that works, it seems to be very positive.

Also noticed multiple published authors in the same group, so I assume true critique & improvements are flowing for all members of said group.

No idea how one finds a compatable group/partner.  A family friend wants my hubby to critique his work, so not our skill group.  I keep insisting he needs to find one of these peer groups.

Hey, S.A., I don’t think you sound like an ass at all.  It’s hard to find somebody with the temperament to give you positive constructive criticism ... someone who will tell you what works, what doesn’t work, why they think it does or doesn’t work, and suggestions for how you might fix things, WITHOUT making it a personal attack.

That’s what you want after all ... someone with some skill in the craft of writing historical romance fiction who will be honest without being bitchy or brutal. 

You might try reading blogs or forums of writers who do similar types of writing to yours.  You might find someone through those forums who will enjoy your “voice” and be an effective critiqu-er.

Good luck!

Aww, here I came to delurk on this thread and brag on the amazingness of my CPs, only to find one of them’s beaten me to it.  Ditto everything CM (the Golden Heart finalist!) said.

You know, I was thinking about this the other day when someone asked me about how to find a CP.  I was astoundingly lucky to connect with my CPs the way I did, and I don’t know how I could have found them otherwise. 

So much of what makes a CP relationship successful is what makes any relationship successful - personal chemistry, mutual respect, similar goals. 

I was thinking, maybe there should be something like CP speed-dating at RWA National or chapter meetings.  Like, you bring five pages of your writing and you go around the room, round-robin style, spending a few minutes chatting with each person, another few minutes exchanging pages for a quick read.  Then at the end, you indicate on a form if you’d be interested in swapping contact info with any of them, and a coordinator cross-checks for matches.

But that’s probably more complicated than it needs to be… and wouldn’t help someone who doesn’t attend conference or chapter meetings.

The Butterscotch Martini Girls started late in ‘03 with none of us published and a couple of fresh newbies. Four of the original five are multi-published now.

At present, there are eight of us and six are multi-published. It comes from having a positive “can do-will do” attitude.

I agree wholeheartedly with the original post and the comments here. I think that joining a big online critique group in the beginning is great because it helps you get used to criticism, and in some cases, can be very helpful. However, you get trolls, people who start critiques by saying, “I don’t read romance, but...” and the list goes on and on *sigh* Very frustrating, indeed!

I do highly recommend Absolute Write because you can both share your work and post an ad for a CP. I’ve seen a lot of the critiques that have come through and they’re for the most part, excellent. I’d be as picky as possible because this is a career you’re looking at; not a hobby. You want to have quality “consultants” working with you, and I don’t think you should settle for anything but the best fit for you.

Something else that I would like to bring up is this: I have had a CP for over a year now, somebody whose work I have gone over with a fine tooth comb, spent hours brainstorming with, and months helping her get her story ready for submission. I have invested a LOT of time in this person’s work because she needed the help and I thought she was serious about getting published. She has submitted her MS to ONE AGENT in the last four or five months, got very upset at her rejection, and then moved on to the next book, expecting me to start the process over with that one, and complained that writing query letters was too hard. I helped her with the first few chapters of the next book, but told her that I have my own writing to do and stuck to the limit. I haven’t told her yet that I’m not willing to put so much time and effort into something she doesn’t seem to be serious about again, but I have a feeling that will have to be my next step if she asks again. Has anyone had an experience similar to this? What did you do?

The idea of ever again trying to find a critique partner makes me cringe—I’m kinda snake-bit by the first two I had.

Maybe you need to find someone who is a reader, like a reviewer. Someone who has read a lot of books, all types who can spot problems and such. I proofread for a little while before I moved to reviewing. I would love to write but I realized that at this point in my life I want to enjoy other peoples’ efforts and when my kids go to school I will have the time to devote to my dream. I would love to develop a working relationship with someone and help their dream come true and when my time comes maybe they could help me.

I wonder if it is a sign since my word was quality67?

It was maybe 6 months before she would send me anything because her husband was convinced I was a crazy who wanted to sell her manuscript on e-Bay.

HA! Poor Jenn. I’m so glad she didn’t give up on me. She emailed me about being CPs, and I said, “I don’t do CPs. No hard feelings.” But Jenn seduced me, slowly but surely. First we became friends. Then we exchanged some of our work. “But not for critique!” I cried. “Just fun, okay?” And then, before you know it, we were going all the way and I couldn’t get enough of her.

Seriously, I wouldn’t be where I am without her, and that’s the truth. A good CP can push you places you weren’t sure you could go. (Wait, I thought I was done with the sexual imagery.) So I’d agree with the previous poster who said that it’s all about chemistry.

Oh, and don’t mistake someone who doesn’t take life seriously for someone who isn’t serious about her work. *wink* <== Look, I even use asterisks!!!

Good beta readers / critique partners are worth their weight in gold.  And yes, as you’ve found, it’s crucial to find people who are dead serious about honing their craft and therefore who want to both give and receive absolutely honest feedback.  Half the time my crit partners and I end our critiques by saying “Don’t hate me!  I’m only hard on you because I want this to be great!” And usually the other one says, “That wasn’t harsh, that was great!” But it’s taken time to build up enough trust for us to do that for each other.  (I’m tempted to launch into a long digression here about women and the kinds of interactions imbedded in our default programming and how we have to break past those barriers to get to the useful stuff, but I’ll restrain myself.)

It’s also important to find people who have some of the tools to actually see when your structure is flawed, when a characterization is flat, etc.  And for that, well… you just have to experiment.  Try out more than one or two readers, see who has that kind of analytical ability.  And then hang onto them for dear life. 

Re. finding the crit partners: I’ve been lucky; I’m part of a group of writer friends who all met ages ago on a screenwriting listserv.  I’ve also picked up one or two more along the way.  But I’d suggest that when you meet a writer, either online or in person, and think, “I like the way that person thinks,” ask if you can look at her work.  If you like her writing, you may like her critique style. 

Also, a friend of mine recently joined Critique Circle and says she got some very good feedback there.  It looks to me like they’re very genre-friendly.  And if you write romantic suspense / romance with a strong mystery element, you can look into the Sisters in Crime Guppies; they have a good rep for intelligent crits. 

Good luck, don’t give up, and what a great question!

It’s not just in romance that finding a good CP is a problem.  I’m working on a romantic suspense novel at the moment, but have been writing mysteries for years.  In the mystery field, the problems are all exactly the same ones I’ve seen mentioned here. 

I have two “writing partners” that I write with and occasionally share snippets with, but we don’t read for critique--we’re just there to urge each other to keep at it.  I’ve yet to find a critique partner I could work well with. 

Any romantic suspense authors out there looking for a serious, hard-working CP?

I’m an avid reader, and would like to write, once I settle down.  I am interested in learning more about the business before jumping out there on my own.  I guess this is along the same lines as Leslee’s post, but my spamword isn’t as inspired: march44.

If you’re interested, or another poster is, please email me.  I’d like to start out with someone I *know*...and I prefer Smart Bitches.

I’ve just GOT to say, I’ve been writing romance for four years, not counting the dabbling I did as a young adult.  I have heard nothing but ‘historicals are dead’ from so many people that I want to tear my hair out and destroy NY with laser beams from my pink and curvy arse.  Despite being a member of a well known, er, writers club, I couldnt’ find anyone therein who had a feel and understanding for historicals.  Erotica, paranormals, yeah sure, but not historicals.  My first non fict sub was pubbed; my first three romance queries were full requests, plus one contest final.  I *know* I can do this but without someone to really get down and dirty with me my writing is going fricking nowhere. 
My books are very cerebral but drawing; I need help with plotting, and the quality of my writing needs to improve.  I’ve taken umpteen writing courses, editing courses, and something just ain’t gellin’. 

Whaa! Whaa!  Help me, Oh Bitches, before I forgo membership to that ‘writers club’ and give in to total despair!

Like lots of other posters here, I had a few bad experiences (and one truly scary one) before finding the right fit. My CPs and I came together basically because we had all had trouble in the past with crit groups. One problem we had all faced was finding people willing to critique gay erotic romance. That problem is dwindling, but is still there, and two or three years ago it was a read PITA.

Two of my CPs and I all worked on an anthology together a couple of years ago, and we learned in the process that we all mesh well together in the critique process. We asked a few other authors we knew to join us, and now we have a group of eight. Each of us have different strengths when it comes to critiquing, which is very helpful. We’re all very honest with each other. I trust my CPs absolutely to tell me if there’s a problem, large or small, with something I write, and to do their best to help me work it out, and I do the same for them. As my editor says, friends don’t let friends write shit, and these girls are some of my dearest friends in the world.

All that is pretty much to say, the best crit partnerships seem to form via serendipity more than anything. Try different groups, see how you fit with them, and keep moving on when the fit isn’t right. Either you’ll eventually find the right group, or you’ll form it yourself. Or maybe you’ll learn that you’re one of those people who works best alone. Whichever it is, S.A., I wish you luck :)

All that is pretty much to say, the best crit partnerships seem to form via serendipity more than anything.

No kidding!  I met mine on a television fan board and we were friends for ages before either of us let the other look at her writing.

At the time, she was writing historical paranormals and I was working on my romance/women’s fiction.  These days, she writes erotic romance, including M/M and I’m writing YA while still trying to break in with the women’s fic.

So yeah, obviously, the trust factor is huge in a good CP relationship.

And I’ll also step up and say that Jenn Echols gives good beta.  ;)

At the time, she was writing historical paranormals and I was working on my romance/women’s fiction.

Good point, Barb. When I met Jenn, I was writing historical and paranormal. She was writing YA and rom comedy. So it definitely has little to do with genre. The key for me is that we get each other.

One other thing… Personally, I think it’s key you have your own writing voice firmly in place before you start working with a critique group or even a partner. There are plenty of Jenn’s suggestions that I don’t take, and vice versa.

I found three of mine via eharlequin. I used to hang out in the struggling writer’s thread. Two have dropped by the wayside but we’re still good friends :) I also crit with a couple girls in my chapter and another writer I met online and fell in love with after I judged her GH entry a few years back. 

I think some if it goes to chance....getting out there and meeting other writers and having the balls to ask.  Good luck!

I’m chiming in here as another member of the Butterscotch Martini Girls critique group. 

A critique partner is invaluable if you can find a group that pushes you to grow, pushes you to be your best and you can trust them to kick you in the butt when you need it, and tell you like it is.  My BMG’s are an invaluable and much appreciated part of my writing career!

Tina

No CP either.  Good thing I’m okay with being anti-social.

I think finding a critique partner could be very useful, although I’ve not had it work successfully for me yet.

This occasion seems different, however, in that you all appear to be intelligent. 

On the off-chance that any of you are looking for a critiquing partner from within the genre and with similar tastes and expectations to that of the original poster and myself - ie that there will be deadlines, expectations, and eventual follow through to publication-level quality, I’ve taken the liberty of insta-creating a livejournal community.

It’s called smartbitchcrit, and if you do a search for it at http://www.livejournal.com it should come up - although it’s only existed for a few seconds at the moment, so it may need some grace.

Hopefully this will provide an easier way to get in touch with fellow potential critique partners, shop around and get to know if your styles seem compatible.  Because otherwise I’d be emailing everyone on this list who’s offered, and I’ve no idea which to start with.

Cheers, Amanda

All right, bitches...are we smart or are we whiners? I say we are smart and we don’t need to look much further than right here. Why can’t some of us hookup right here and at least begin exploring if any of us would be compatible as CPs?

Here’s my curriculum vita: I majored in government and history in college (British and Civil War). I’ve been an army officer’s wife, a CSI, a fire chief, a mother, softball coach, and a whole bunch of other things like working on a ranch, cowboys and Indians… I’m sarcastic, enthusiastic, friendly (so long as I’ve had a least one cup of coffee in the morning). I need someone to save me from bad puns. I write...all sorts of things - paranormal romance, romantic suspense, suspense with romantic elements, romantic sci-fi with fantasy elements, and I’m getting ready to embark on “mature romances” (meaning the heroine is like...middle-aged, ya know? Srsly. For real.) Oh...and I’m pretty good at spotting typos so long as they aren’t my own.

Anybody need critiquing or plot/continuity/expert help in any of the above, email me. Anybody interested in critiquing mine, email me. silverjames(at)swbell.net

C’mon, bitches. We got the hook up right here. Anybody else interested?

Dude! Amanda...I’m there! See you on LJ.

I’m an editor (I use a pseudonym) for a small romance publisher.  I also write and would love to critique historical or romantic suspense stories.

My email is writersweekend at hotmail dot com.

I am brutal.  My last four critique partners have all quit critting with me because they’re too busy writing under deadline for their publishers.  Also, I am brutal.

Amanda, colour me there.  How do we sign on?

Already got an LJ account, but I tend to neglect it in favour of Wordpress,… yeah, I know, a slap on the wrist for that.

Ok, I’ve put the link up in my details, so if you click on my name down the bottom it should take you to the page.  In longhand, it’s

http://community.livejournal.com/smartbitchcrit/

And it is in baby steps, as I’ve never started an lj community before but how else do you learn, really?

General format I’d suggest:
Name
Interests
Romance Genre
Tolerance for beginners (High/Med/Low)
Writing History - any books published, how many manuscripts you’ve started and how many you’ve finished.  What you’re working on at the moment and what you will want your partner to look at.

As a general idea, I think you should start with a meet and greet post, then if possible post a small part of your writing and see who bites.

Well, first off, I never even knew that historicals were supposedly a ‘dead’ genre. I love ‘em to bits and will keep reading them as long as they’re published. I have utmost respect for historical writers, so you go, girls!

As for CPs, it’s nice to see so many other “doesn’t play well with others” writers out there. After some lacklustre experiences with group critique groups, my DH has ended up as my CP. After 10 years of living with me, he knows exactly how to couch criticism. LOL Also, he’s very fussy about his fiction, so if I can hook him, then that’s a good sign for me. Everything he’s liked, I’ve sold. The stuff he didn’t like, I haven’t sold. That’s a damn good yardstick for me to have.

When it comes to publication, both of us want to be multi-published writers, but in different streams. I want to be a novelist and he’s an academic looking to get his non-fiction work published. He comes to my work with no prior knowledge of the genre, as I do to his. It works really well because it means we’re both looking for simplicity in the other’s work. Plus, there is absolutely no hint of competition, as might exist even between an sf romance and historical romance author, e.g., which really nixes the potential for schadenfreude.

Excellent idea, Amanda!  And in the interests of sharing info, I also have an LJ community that’s made up of several pubbed authors as well as unpubbeds, all at various points on the publishing road.  It’s not a critique group, per se, but more one that’s designed to answer questions about things like submitting, revisions, copy editing symbols, pretty much any of the stuff that writers stress over at some point or another.  It’s still relatively new, so it’s kind of quiet, but we’re there and someone’s always around to answer questions.

Here’s the addy:  http://community.livejournal.com/shareabrain/

Golly I don’t write but if I did I wouldn’t want a critique partner, I’d want someone to tell me how wonderful and brilliant I am!
:P

Another Butterscotch Martini Girl here waving at you from AZ.
My critique group is wonderful. They keep me motivated and inspired and eager to keep on writing. They push me to be my best, and yes, they have threatened to kick my butt a time or two or maybe three.  I feel very lucky to have found like-minded friends to work with that all have a common goal. I have no idea where I’d be without them, certainly not multi-published.

I was lucky in that I found my CP because she had some very specific questions about military operations in deployed areas. Even better, when she offered to be my CP, we found we work well together because I’m the grammar fiend and she’s the overall story builder. I’d read her books before ever contacting her, and I liked the way she wrote, so when our personalities and writing styles seemed to mesh as well, it was fate.

Just one more thing.  Okay maybe two.  I’d love it if someone would recommend a good, solid CURRENT historical to me.  I am too much of a fan of the Rosemary Rogers days and need to know what’s getting pubbed right now.  Yeah, I’ve been to the book store and I’ve read a few, but frankly I was uninspired.  Nothing ‘top o’the line’ because then I’ll never write again.  While I’m writing I’m not reading. 
So, any suggestions? 
Tell me, how the heroines have changed?  *must* they be so strong a hurricane can’t topple them?  should they save the family, keep a columnist job a secret, rear six siblings, secretly meet the hero at midnight? 

(my earlier post)
My books are very cerebral but drawing; I need help with plotting, and the quality of my writing needs to improve.  I’ve taken umpteen writing courses, editing courses, and something just ain’t gellin’. 

Whaa! Whaa!  Help me, Oh Bitches, before I forgo membership to that ‘writers club’ and give in to total despair!>

Sorry to come in too late to this conversation. I absolutely couldn’t write without my cp. Without her, I suck. While I understand that some people work best without a second opinion, my feeling is that I’d rather have a second opinion from someone before I hear from my editor or readers.

So, where do you find the ultimate cp? I highly recommend checking out Charlotte Dillon’s Yahoo Group, RWC. This group used to be more active and more informative than it is today, but it is still a great resource. She has a database of people looking for cp’s. That’s where I found mine. I looked for someone who was writing at about the same level, we exchanged novellas, and then we clicked. RWC also has a critique loop that I’ve used, but as my writing advanced, that resource became too limited. (Mostly, they complained that they didn’t want to read the same chapter 18 million times, picky cats!)

You can find the list of people looking for CP’s at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RWClist/database
If you join, you can post yourself up there, or look for someone who sounds promising. The general RWC loop is informative for people just starting out as well.

Best,
Lucinda

If you go the RWA route AND you’re a contest slut, you can try hooking up with other finalists at conferences.

Like any successful hookup, it’s a good idea if you go into that first experience with limited expectations.

Be up front.  “I’m not jumping into a permanent, personal relationship.  This is a one-off offer--first chapters only till we see if we’re compatible.”

Practice safe critiquing.  Protect your own ego.  Don’t jab sharp objects into your partner’s body of work without warming them up first.

Have an exit line ready.  “It’s not you.  It’s me.”

Virginia, went through critique partners like kleenex in those early days

I had one great group when I started at a local RWA chapter but they insisted on meeting weekly, which ate up my time.  And then they stopped writing.  The next person I got through the local chapter insisted on doing critiques online since she lived 70 miles away.  I learned to use technology and I can’t ever edit on paper again.  Eventually we stumbled onto another author we liked—we had all gotten published by the same publisher by then—who lived 3000 miles away. We shredded each other’s stories but we respected each other enough to read each story line by line.  None of us has time any more to do detailed critiques--a byproduct of getting published, I think-- but we’re all willing to take a quick look when the story is complete and we have another group of friends we have developed who will look when they have time.  Thanks to Kate Douglas, Shelby Morgen (one of her critiques consisted of “Your formatting sucks donkey balls; your story rocks!"), Diane Whiteside, Doreen DeSalvo and the rest of the gang!  You rule!

Breaking the Lurk to chime in here. It’s been great reading the responses to this post (no surprise, as I’ve been lurking a while and always enjoy what goes on here). I share a lot of the sentiments posted so far—esp trying to find good critiquers for my romance writing.

I want to throw in a new idea. Namely, where do people go to get good advice on how to **be** a good critiquer? I recently stumbled on a great group very close to me, at The Writer’s Center in White River Jct, VT. I’ve participated in one group so far and the level of writing and feedback was topnotch. Beyond unbelievable the amount of thought everyone would put into critiquing each week’s submission. And because the group was big—ab 10 people—the variety of comments was very diverse, which was often helpful. One person would notice something that another might not.

But anyway, I digress from my main point, which is that the Center founder has a book called Toxic Feedback. She talks about how to receive feedback, how to give feedback, how to handle bad feedback, how to find or start writer’s groups. She also includes a bunch of author interviews, including one by Jennifer Crusie. Reading the book had as much of an impact on the way I think about writing and feedback as Anne LaMott’s Bird by Bird.

So, how do you improve your own feedback skills?

I’m already in a crit group. I really like it very much, esp. because their writing is all eclectic, but they all write romance (or romantic elements).  :) BTW—we’re always looking for new blood, so to speak, if anyone’s interested. :)