Smart Bitches Trashy Books | All of the romance, none of the bullshit.

EVE DALLAS!  EVE DALLAS!!
To me she is - or at least was flawed in Naked in Death.  She seemed only half a person when the series began - but I loved her to death anyway.  She was a great cop, but the rest of her life was so barren with the exception of Feeney and *oh crap - it’s early and my mind has gone - what’s her name* - her best friend.
That’s why I’m so enamored of these books because over time, we see Eve become so much more of a complete person.

And of course there is Roarke.  See!  I remember his name.

I’m a big fan of the flawed heroine.

Darnit! KristieJ beat me to it. Nora’s girl FTW!

What flawed heroines do you adore? And what types of flaws do you enjoy or loathe?

I never, ever buy books about kick-ass, scarred, potty-mouthed women......... so when I read Pack Challenge by Shelly Laurenston her “Sara” wasn’t what I was expecting nor what I wanted in a romance book when I started the story.

She (Sara) took me by storm and stayed in my heart. Mean? Oh yeah. Scar down her face? Yeah. Mangled leg and limp? Yup. Nasty, foul mouth oh her. Yes. Did I love her… after my initial shock at what the author thought comprised a heroine? OMG, I loved this Sara character! 

This is not to say that the book didn’t need the almost usual editing or that it was my all-time favorite but that it presented a character that made me cheer for her, made me want to buy more of the author’s books and made me glad I read romance novels.

All of my favorite books have flawed heroines. There are too many to list their names.

I love flaws that envolve an overabundance of something good. A heroine who is too giving or too loyal is a good example. They have to learn (hopefully) how to temper thier excess and become healthy and happy people.

I hate flaws that are stupidity, snotty attitudes and constantly underestimating their worth. Drives me nuts to hear a heroine say things like “Oh my, I would tell him that the baby isn’t mine- but his brother’s best friend’s chihuahua told him so he’d never believe me!” Ugh.

I loathe Anita Blake, several books ago I adored her. Poor LKH really jumped the shark…

Ok, I’ll own up to having a soft spot for Ayla from the Jean Auel books.  Yes she’s a total mary sue, yes, she invented everything from how to make fire to bows and arrows and birth control, but dammit, she’s a fighter and she went through a lot to get to her HEA.  I don’t hold it against her that Auel seems to want to make her the bestest, wonderfulest, hostess with the mostest.  Not her fault. ;)

Peabody!  Eve Dallas’ friend (and partner) is Peabody.  I want Peabody to be my friend, too - in many books I like her better than Dallas.

Shanna Trahern.  Selfish bitch.

The Perfect Rake is one of my top faves- just re-read it a few days ago. Gideon and Prudence are a hot pair- sparks fly and what humor, wit and pathos. The end is just so magnificent. Determined Prudence makes her desires clear no matter what Gideon’s intentions are honorouble or dishonourable.  A must read.

While they don’t really qualify as romances, I adore Jim Butcher’s Dresden Files, and Karrin Murphy, Harry’s cop sidekick, is a perfect example of the flawed heroine.  In the first few books, she comes across as angry, self-righteous, and unbending; she also flirts with depression and substance abuse issues, but she learns from her mistakes instead of angsting over them, and throughout the series she’s remained a loyal, brave, and trustworthy companion (not to mention potential love interest.)

Definitely too many fab flawed heroines to name, but I love a heroine who speaks her mind, is stubborn, a little too independent, maybe a little vulnerable but not willing to show it, the heroine who’s a little high in the instep but becomes humbled in the end.

Characteristics I hate: selfishness, pettiness, carelessness, and (I’ll say it and take the brunt, but I have baggage upon baggage that will require too much time and detail to explain) promiscuousness.

Eve Dallas is one of my favorites too. But I have two others. Rachel from the Kim Harrison series is so well written as a flawed character. She sort of discovers her flaws (recklessness, adrenaline junkie) over time and her flaws have some real and sometimes devastating consequences.

The character I started out not liking at all then falling in love with is Julie in Lori G. Armstrong’s mystery series starting with Blood Ties. I think it’s actually the first heroine I’ve read who smokes like a chimney and drinks hard. She also picks up and takes home unsuitable guys and is not at all charitable about her boss’ girlfriend. I’m a big anti-smoker and had an alcoholic father so to say she put me off at first would be an understatement. Fortunately she won me back. But I still wish she’d quit smoking.

Hah. submit word medical12. As in, Julie, quit smoking or you’ll have at least 12 different medical conditions.

Melanthe from For My Lady’s Heart by Laura Kinsale.  A true alpha female, brilliant and ruthless.

Louise from Beast by Judith Ivory.  Unbearably beautiful, unbearably smart, unbearably self-centered.  And @#$%ing eighteen.  Yet I love her unbearably.

And I’m going to nominate Gigi from my debut, Private Arrangements, for the Most Flawed Heroine of 2008.  If there is a more flawed one, I haven’t read her yet.  :-)

Dang, Sherry beat me to it with Melanthe!  Some of SEP’s heroines would make the cut.  Francesca from Fancy Pants in particular starts out selfish and flawed, but grows tremendously.  That’s part of what I like about her.

I’m too busy raising my eyebrows at the idea of Miss Havisham as a heroine to come up with a favorite of my own.

(I mean, REALLY? With the wedding gown and the OVERWHELMING CRAZY? That’s taking “flaws” a bit far, don’t you think?)

Jordan already got the two best I could ever think of: Harriet Vane and Maud Bailey. Both of whom I adore beyond all reason.

Peabody!  Eve Dallas’ friend (and partner) is Peabody.  I want Peabody to be my friend, too - in many books I like her better than Dallas.

Don’t forget Mavis!

*joins Eve Dallas Fan Club!* Eve starts out so broken inside, as is Roarke… *fans self while drooling* Watching them grow and evolve as individuals and as a couple has been an amazing ride! THANK YOU, Nora! I’d love to hang out with Eve and talk shop.

And as Robinjn mentioned, Julie from Blood Ties. I bought all three of Lori’s books on a leap of faith and they are now parked right next to my In Death books. I’ll reread them this fall before the new one, Snow Blind, comes out October 1. I even got my husband to read them. I’d like to go drink coffee with Julie, too. Or have a beer out in the backyard.

These are tough women who have weathered the emotional and physical trauma in their lives and still made a place in the world without whining; who have learned to love and trust despite their pasts; who keep putting one foot in front of the other despite all the odds. What’s not to like?

Well, Elizabeth Bennet is the classic flawed heroine and still one of my very favorites - she’s so smart and funny and fun, and her flaws clash against Darcy’s in such delicious ways!

A perfect heroine would be really boring (not to mention unbelievable). I like the same flaws in romance heroines that I would forgive in my own friends - strong, smart women who are human and do have vulnerabilities and red flags in certain areas, but who are also brave enough to admit when they’ve been wrong (at least by the end of the book!).

What makes me crazy in books are heroines who get into trouble through sheer stupidity (like the heroines who are in HUGE, LETHAL DANGER and KNOW IT and have no physical self-defense training or other practical means of protecting themselves - and yet insist on sneaking away from their bodyguards/the hero all the time just because they feel they shouldn’t have to bother with such trivialities...and of course whenever the hero calls them on it they just say he’s being male & unreasonable. I’ve read that character far too many times, and it always makes me grit my teeth. Those women aren’t showing their strength, they’re just showing their immaturity.

Re:  Merlin ("Midsummer Moon")

I’ve read that book twice, and thought she might have Asperger’s Syndrome.  I couldn’t relate to her at all; too “savant-ish.” However, I did fall in love with the stuttering “Mr. Duke.” Yumm-o.

IMO the most “flawed heroine” is Scarlett O’Hara.  I would never chose to be her friend.  That said, she is a fascinating creation.

Scarlet O’Hara. Spoiled, vain, selfish - she’s everything I ever hated in the stereotypical popular schoolgirl.  She has no girlfriends and doesn’t feel the lack of female companionship.  She deliberately steals other girls’ beaux because she has to be the center of attention.  Come hell or high water or the Yankees she’s going to get what she wants.

And in the end, that’s why I admire and respect her, even though I didn’t like her.  She takes on the burden of feeding and caring for her family and family friends.  She discovers that she has a brain and puts it to good use in business.  She schemes, she flirts, she exploits – she’s stubborn and utterly ruthless.  And she puts all these flaws to work to ensure her family not only survives but prospers as well.

Those flaws cost her in the end, when she loses everyone she discovers too late she loves.  And then there’s that whole slavery/racism issue.  But, dang, what a ride!

WandaSue, I see you beat me to it!

Scarlett O"Hara.  She was a selfish, spoiled brat who had THE man and didn’t learn from her mistakes until the very end.  I wanted to shake her until her marbles were rattled straight.  Many character flaws and she will always hold a special place in my heart.

My favorite flawed heroine is the one who is entirely too self-reliant, who sometimes comes across as a heinous bitch at first, and learns how to trust and admit to needing people at the end. I think some people write this character horribly, making her bitchy and angry for no good reason, or having her not learn her lesson in the end. But the well-written overconfident, too-strong heroine really gets me into the story.

I’m going to chime in on the always-ongoing LKH debate. I loved Anita. Even when she started collecting her harem and stopped actually necromancing (and doesn’t she HAVE to necromance to get the power out of her, so that she doesn’t wake up whole graveyards? Where did that little limitation disappear to?), I liked her. She was strong and tough, she tried to be the best Anita she could be without compromising herself, but she had this inner vulnerability that made you want to follow her story, to see how she would overcome it. The problem is...she NEVER overcame it. She still doesn’t want to let anyone get close to her emotionally because obviously everyone is going to die or leave her or both, even though none of the men in her harem is particularly vulnerable, nor is anyone close to leaving her ass (I would, but since I’m not a straight male, I might be missing something). Anyway, long ramble short, Anita is the type of flawed heroine I used to love, before I realized she would never grow emotionally.

So many great examples. It’s really not a good romance is the heroine isn’t made real, and only flawed people are real.

We’ve had lots of examples of the tough flawed heroine, and I agree Eve Dallas is the paradigm there.  Demon Lilith, the sexy lying aggressive bitch with a heart from Meljean Brook’s Demon Angel, is in the same mold as Eve, although paranormally enhanced.

Megan Hart’s Broken and Dirty feature very realistic flawed heroines (especially Elle from Dirty). Snappish, bitchy, selfish at times, but easy to empathize with.

But in terms of classics of romance, I would go for a very different kind of flawed heroine as most memorable to me.  Laura Kinsale’s Flowers from the Storm features Maddy Timms, the most frustratingly flawed heroine I can think of. Here she has this hunk of a man, rich, brilliant, who wants her every which way to Sunday, and she cannot (and cannot, and cannot...) reconcile her lust and love for him with her Quaker principles. For the longest time, she is stuck, she wavers, she runs and comes back.  I know a lot of folks gave up on Maddy, and agree that I have never been more frustrated with a fictional character, but Kinsale’s writing made me understand her predicament, keep reading, and keep hoping against hope that it would somehow work out.

I love Suzanne Enoch’s reformed(?) reforming? cat burglar Samantha Jellicoe.  Sam struggles so hard to stay straight on the straight and narrow - and doesn’t always succeed.  And four books into the series, she still can’t quite bring herself to believe that Rick Addison can, and does, love her. 

And isn’t Samantha Jellicoe just a great character name?

Kat Crawfield from Halfway to the Grave. Born half vampire? check. Mother who hates vampires and hates what her daughter is? check. Hot vampire love interest? check. Swigging vodka straight from the bottle yet can’t get drunk? check. Love these books and can’t wait for more.

I really enjoyed Harriet Vane and Gaudy Night, so I’m happily on board with the article there. I loved how prickly and real and feminist she was. No soppy in that book but plenty of quiet tension and passion. Very well-written.

But Ayla? No way. I did like Ayla - in the first two books - but she is hardly a flawed heroine, I mean, that’s why I had to grit my teeth in order to slog through the rest of the series. She’s TOO perfect, obnoxiously so, making her totally unrealistic and therefore, eventually, unenjoyable. Whoever said “mary sue”? YES. That.

I have to mention Cannie Shapiro in Jennifer Weiner’s “Good in Bed” as an interesting flawed character.

Jennie Cruisie’s heroines are always fascinatingly flawed.

Also, although its not really a romance (maybe an anti-romance???), I absolutely love the way Elinor Lipman created the character Alice in “The Pursuit of Alice Thrift”.  Alice is an hilariously flawed character but so likeable!  Elinor Lipman is a stunningly good author!

Oh! I have a few.

How ‘bout Sirantha Jax from Ann Aguirre’s Grimspace? She’s damaged and tormented, and dances a fine line very often between doing the right thing and not. Love her!

How about Anya from Gena Showalter’s The Darkest Night? She’s the Goddess of Anarchy. She’s a liar and thrives on things being in upheaval. She’s a good one.

Gwendolyn Harleth in Daniel Deronda; ditto on Harriet Vane and the scene where she realizes she’s in love with Wimsey is beyond hot and they’re not even touching each other; ditto on Louise in Beast; early Stephanie Plum; Kinsey Milhone in Sue Grafton’s series; and respectfully offering Lady Caroline Elmhurst (broke, bad, big-mouthed) in A Most Lamentable Comedy, Little Black Dress, UK, 2009 (mine).

How could I forget--the ultimate in nasty, brutish and short, Lucy Snowe in Villette by Charlotte Bronte. What a woman, what a book, makes Jane Eyre look like the back of a cereal carton.

Trouble is with most flawed heroines in romance, I think, is that she won’t stay that way; she has to change and transcend and all that stuff, whereas I’d prefer to see her spitting bile all the way to the HEA and presumably beyond.

I like flaws. Meljean Brook writes heroines that are deeply flawed and interesting and often broken..but they rise above the internal conflicts, which of course makes them heroic, and they kick ass. She’s the bees knees that one is. My top fav heroine ever is Savitri Murray.

Re Scarlett O’Hara

I just did a blog post about her last week. 

I read her when I was 14 or 15 or thereabouts and despised her, but as an adult with some life behind me, I’m wondering if I would now “get” her if I went back and read it again.

I’m on the Melanthe bandwagon. 

Can I throw out Phedre from the Kushiel series?  The whole “I know I shouldn’t like this, but I DO I DO!” part of her issues was fascinating to me.

I know there’s more, too, but I can’t think right now.

Scarlett O’Hara.

I’ve always thought Miss Scarlett got a bad deal; if she’d been born a hundred years later nothing she did would have led anyone to bat an eye. OTOH, if she’d been born a hundred years later she wouldn’t have had to do what she did.

Was she an idiot, hung up on Ashley Wilkes? Of course. But she wasn’t the first woman in history to fall for a facade, and at least she came to realize what a fool she’d been even if it was too late.

I do NOT, however, include the character as totally f***ed up in that godawful sequel. Margaret Mitchell’s heirs should be ashamed.

I’ve always had a soft spot for Lady Kaede in Akira Kurosawa’s “Ran”. 

Wait- that wasn’t a romance?

These aren’t romances, but Judy Blume’s heroine from WIFEY is insanely relatable and very flawed.

I also just read THE BRIDE STRIPPED BARE (can’t remember author, sorry).  The heroine was fascinating and awful.  Still can’t decide if I liked the book; it was too disturbing.

Sula, I don’t think Ayla can be described as flawed in terms of her personality (or appearance). Her upbringing may have been difficult, but she herself is so ridiculously perfect that even Mary Sue doesn’t cover it. She’s gorgeous, smart, has an astounding memory, is beloved by everyone starting in book 2, befriends small and large animals, is great in bed (or whatever they used for beds), invents everything known to humankind except perhaps lolcats - it’s too much.

I haven’t read Gracie, but if the description given by Ms. Jordan is accurate, I feel there are better examples of flawed heroines in romance novels. I’m more interested in a heroine with a difficult personality, and the article seems to focus mostly on her looks. I’m guessing there’s more to it than that, right?

Sherry, Gigi is wonderful! By all means, let’s have more heroines who make serious mistakes and learn from them (SEP’s Sugar Beth Carey being a good example).

Ok, I’ll own up to having a soft spot for Ayla from the Jean Auel books.  Yes she’s a total mary sue, yes, she invented everything from how to make fire to bows and arrows and birth control, but dammit, she’s a fighter and she went through a lot to get to her HEA.  I don’t hold it against her that Auel seems to want to make her the bestest, wonderfulest, hostess with the mostest.  Not her fault. ;)

But Ayla? No way. I did like Ayla - in the first two books - but she is hardly a flawed heroine, I mean, that’s why I had to grit my teeth in order to slog through the rest of the series. She’s TOO perfect, obnoxiously so, making her totally unrealistic and therefore, eventually, unenjoyable. Whoever said “mary sue”? YES. That.

I started the CLAN books when I was twelve.  At the time I was both in awe and skeptical at Ayla .  ONE girl could be the cause behind ALL of these amazing events and discoveries?! LOL!  It’s interesting that she is on the list.

I must prefer to read flawed heroines...hope I’m doing a good job in writing them too!

I have to agree that Ayla from the Earth’s Children series = Mary Sue at the Dawn of Time.  Doesn’t Know How Great She Is does not equal Flawed.  I read all the books but always thought that the first book, where she was constantly treated as an outcast, was much better than any of the later ones.

Emma Woodhouse.  Snobbish, not given to introspection, sure she knows what’s best for everybody.  I always feel a little sad at the end, when she sees the error of her ways.

In general I think writers often cheat with their “flawed” heroines/heroes by just giving them more of what’s essentially a good quality:  she’s too fiery/independent/hard-headed; i.e., strong.  I would love to read more stories with heroines who have flaws that run the risk of being genuinely off-putting.  Hypocrisy, for example.  That’s a fascinating flaw that I find to be severely underrused.

Sugar Beth Carey!  That’s the name.  I am so bad with names.  She was the gal who came to mind when I read this post.

It’s interesting to me what “flaws” are permissable in a hero as compared to a heroine—or what makes a heroine “flawed” as compared to what makes a hero “flawed”.

Wow, Phaedre?  Really?  Her “flaws” were really kind of lame, like, “Oh, I am so cursed by being this damnably good in bed, as well as brilliant at politics!” I mean, those books were great, you don’t have to have a totally flawed protagonist to be a good book, but let’s back up the Mary Sue train on that one.

I like flaws in heroines, so long as they aren’t of the TSTL variety.  Especially in a long running series.  If your heroine is, hypothetically, a private detective and is always in a lot of danger, but she also does habitually dumb stuff, after fourteen books the reader is going to start to think, “Okay, you locked you keys in your car at the worst possible moment AGAIN?  Maybe this isn’t the line of work for you.  Maybe something more along the lines of pastry chef.”

Or, if the character is really flawed, and it’s okay because everyone finds her flaws so OH GOLLY GEE cute.  Like Bridget Jones, before the author destroyed the story line in the newspaper columns.

For a writer, utilizing certain flaws, especially in genre fiction, can be dangerous. Let’s take hypocrisy. If it’s deliberate, in a romance you risk having the reader wonder what the hero can possibly see in such a two-faced bitch. Remember, that’s one of the things some people dislike about Scarlett O’Hara--that she presented a charming face while she was stabbing people in the back. And I suspect you’ll find a lot more people who think she got her just desserts than think she was screwed by a system that had no place for “uppity women.”

In other words, most readers are willing to accept a heroine who’s so fiercely independent she can’t and won’t ask for help--or accept it when it’s offered. Or one who’s terrified of a relationship because she’s had nothing but bad ones. Or those who, like Amber in Forever Amber are forced to become “evil” because their culture leaves them no choice if they want to survive.

So, to have a hypocritical heroine, especially in a romance, you would have to lay the foundation for it very carefully lest you lose reader empathy for the character.

I’m too busy raising my eyebrows at the idea of Miss Havisham as a heroine to come up with a favorite of my own.

I emphatically agree, Snarkhunter!  And I notice that the original article even misspells the name - it is, as you have written, Havisham, not Haversham.

However, it is worth pointing out that Miss Havisham becomes a rather more engaging character than her Dickensian original in Jasper Fforde’s Lost in a Good Book.
:-)

Forgive me but I’m still not convinced that Eve Dallas is flawed… she seems pretty perfect to me....

I did think of another moody, rude and mean heroine that grew on me until I was cheering for her .... Cat Dupree from Sharon Sala’s Cut Throat and Nine Lives. Cat started out as a bitch and remained a bitch through two books… albeit a sometimes lovable & understandable and often funny heroine but still a rude & ornery bitch.

I haven’t read a single one of the books on her list! Oh dear. More TBR. Personally, I think ALL Heroines and Heroes need to start off the book flawed, and then transform over the course of the novel to be “better because of loving you”. A good story must have this transformation, in which the caterpillar becomes a butterfly.

Scarlett kicks ass!

Elena from Kelley Armstrong’s Bitten

Although I’m not sure if her habit of fleeing from Clay and her transformational circumstances is a flaw so much as a sensible reaction to some seriously fucked-up events.  She is one of the few romantic heroines I’m aware of who start the story off in a live-in relationship with a non-hero man.

And I guess it’s not technically a romance, but it sure feels like one to me.

Suze, I love Elena and KA is one of my favorite authers ever, but I don’t think Elena is a flawed heroine. Sure, she’s not perfect but she doesn’t have any major character defects. You and I would probably run from Clay too, if he had turned us into a werewolf.

Jody W.-YES on Sugar Beth Carey. I hated her at the beginning. I was still lukewarm by the middle of the book. But by the end, I had to love her.

I agree with CEmerson above that a lot of the flaws in romance characters are “more of what’s essentially a good quality:  she’s too fiery/independent/hard-headed; i.e., strong.” But I think that’s true of most human beings, too.  Our flaws are particular personality traits taken to an unpleasant extreme; we are out of balance in one way or another.  Selfish is one extreme, overly self-sacrificing is another, and the “ideal” balance is in the middle.  Some scholar (I’d have to get out the thesis research to find his name) once argued that the only truly “balanced” character in Shakespeare’s plays was Horatio—and come on, how boring is he!?!  I think perfect characters are dull.

In thinking about this, I’m starting to realize that I prefer “slightly flawed” heroines.  TSTL is a pretty low threshold for me—I’d much rather have an intelligent heroine who lacks social skills, grace, or the ability to control her temper.  Katherine in Taming of the Shrew, if I can say that without rousing too much ire about how that HEA is achieved. 

I like my heroines feisty and fierce, and that can be very “flawed” behavior, especially in historicals.  That’s another line that’s important to draw—what do characters in the book see as a flaw, as opposed to what the reader sees?  I don’t think it’s a “real” flaw unless the reader perceives it as such; if it is something like standing up for herself, and that keeps her from being married to some idiot, then her father or whoever may judge that she’s “flawed,” but you know the reader doesn’t think so!  I like it when heroines cross the line and do things that aren’t just violations of the social code, but that also make me think, “damn, that was a mistake!”

I suppose what endears hypocrisy to me is the fundamental lack of self-knowledge that goes with it.  You’re right, Elizabeth Burton, I don’t want to read about a two-faced bitch.  But a heroine with a big enough blind spot that she can disapprove of someone else’s behavior without recognizing that she’s guilty of the same thing; a heroine whose author allows her to look a bit ridiculous every now and then, is a heroine I can get behind.

(Lack of self-understanding gets me every time.  Off the romance topic, but Stevens in The Remains of the Day is one of my all-time favorite narrators for this reason.)

Also… I’d like to see a few more heroines guilty of vanity.  Vain of their face, their figure, their brain, their distinguished family, their perfectly demure manners; whatever.  That’s a good prickly flaw for me.

If your heroine is, hypothetically, a private detective and is always in a lot of danger, but she also does habitually dumb stuff, after fourteen books the reader is going to start to think, “Okay, you locked you keys in your car at the worst possible moment AGAIN?”

Jennifer Armintrout—this is exactly what put me off of the Aimee LeDuc mystery series. I didn’t even need fourteen books—I think it was three. Aimee the amazing PI was trying to run from some bad guy in heels AGAIN, and I thought—after three books of near-death experiences, wouldn’t you switch to wearing sneakers on a stakeout? Jeez Louise.

I agree with everyone about Elizabeth Bennett and Emma Woodhouse as flawed heroines. Jane Austen in general rocks at FHs: I’d include Anne Eliot (part of me wants to see her admit that she was wrong to let Lady Whashername persuade her to give up Wentworth, but she never does), and Catherine Morland from Northanger Abbey. I know some people see Catherine as foolish and immature, and not good enough for Henry Tilney, but I really empathize with her. I’ve been suckered into false friendships by taking people at face value, and I loved to imagine myself as the heroine of a book or movie when I was growing up. She’s very real to me.

For the record, I can’t stand Scarlett O’Hara. :)

However, it is worth pointing out that Miss Havisham becomes a rather more engaging character than her Dickensian original in Jasper Fforde’s Lost in a Good Book.

True! That’s a great book, and Miss Havisham rocks it. :)

Not sure if this counts as romance, but I’m very fond of Ista from Paladin of Souls.  She’s proud, bitter, angry, and recovering from years of having been considered seriously mentally ill, and having been betrayed on a very personal level by her husband.

Miss freakin’ Havisham is a romantic heroine?  I don’t think so.

I vote for giving her the boot and putting Hester Prynne in her place.

I think heroines such as Scarlett O’Hara and Amber StClare (of Forever Amber fame) are less “flawed” than products of a mindset that persisted through roughly the first two thirds of the twentieth century:  that a woman could be strong, independent, and financially successful, OR she could find a loving partner and live happily ever after, but never both.  As I recall, it wasn’t until the mid-1970’s that the idea that a woman could Have It All really started to take off, and then it took another couple of decades for popular fiction to catch up....

WOW, Robinjn and Silver James - high praise indeed for my character Julie Collins to be spoken in the same breath as Eve Dallas. I’m humbled.

I’ve been asked this question a billion times, why don’t I fix Julie’s flaws? And oddly enough, it almost always comes from… women. Readers want that character growth, the ability to see the changes from book to book, yet...they don’t want the character to change too much because you lose that character’s individuality that brought them to the series in the first place. So Julie still smokes. Still swears. Still enjoys the hell out of sex. Still speaks her mind. I chose to see those characteristics as quirks, not flaws.

It’s a fine line to straddle.

For the record, I’m in the Scarlett O’Hara fan club side. Love her or hate her, she is one of the greatest flawed female characters ever.

Cool topic, SB!

Great topic.

- Not the heroine of the book, although she gets most of the action, but Rose Mortmain, from I Capture the Castle by Dodie Smith. Wonderful book but I wasn’t a huge fan of Cassandra - she could be annoyingly vulnerable and naive. Rose was tougher, more cynical, and more attuned to the reality of their situation. Which is why she decides to marry for money. A less skilled author could have made her into an unsympathetic character, but I loved her! And I enjoyed how Twoo Wuv takes her by surprise, just as much as it does Cassandra. I was glad she got her happy ending.
- Elizabeth Bennett, nuff said!
- Bathsheba Everdene, Far from the Madding Crowd. I enjoyed the way her character matures from a vain and flighty young girl to someone much more aware and responsible - but I like the ambiguity Hardy puts into it - we feel sad for the innocence she’s lost.

Hmmmm, I guess it really depends on what you interpret the word ‘flaws’ to mean. What drives me completely nuts is a heroine that doesn’t learn and evolve....IIRC someone mentioned a heroine chasing someone in heels? See, that’s just an accident waiting to happen! I will admit, sometimes the learning process is slow, but a stagnating flaw just reminds me of stagnating water, which breeds mosquitoes :)

I’m currently re-reading Lover Eternal, and I have to say I really like the heroine - Mary. I feel she is flawed - she is determined not to let people in...and it drives the hero (Rhage) up the wall. But she does overcome that....eventually :)

orannia

PS Oh, and I have to say I just loved The Perfect Rake!

I’ve been asked this question a billion times, why don’t I fix Julie’s flaws? And oddly enough, it almost always comes from… women. Readers want that character growth, the ability to see the changes from book to book, yet...they don’t want the character to change too much because you lose that character’s individuality that brought them to the series in the first place. So Julie still smokes. Still swears. Still enjoys the hell out of sex. Still speaks her mind. I chose to see those characteristics as quirks, not flaws.

Lori I read this just before going out to dinner and ruminated and you’re right (and of course you would be, you’re the writer!) Julie has quirks. She also has flaws and real issues to deal with and I love the way she and Tony struggle separately and together to find a relationship that will work for both of them.

[fangurrrlll gush]As you can tell I’m a huge fan and I’ll be quite disappointed when the series ends, but I’ll be looking forward to anything new you put out![/fangurrrlll gush]

submit word size 79. Lordy I hope not! I’ve worked so hard this past year!

My nominee for Flawed Heroine of the Year (or past 200 years) is Becky Sharp from Thackeray’s “Vanity Fair”.  She’s smart and selfish and far more interesting than that milquetoast, Amelia (she was so bland I’m not even sure I remember her name correctly).

Ooo, Susan/DC, I just came back to the thread to add Becky Sharp!! SHE is my Scarlett O’Hara. I know she’s selfish and conniving and two-faced, and I just love the shit out of her. I was actually a little disappointed that Reese Witherspoon gave her a heart in the film version—as much as I love Reese, Becky would never have wept for her husband.

I really think Beatrice from Much Ado is probably my favorite flawed heroine. I might be biased as she is my all time favorite fictional heroine closely tied/hard to place second with Elizabeth Bennett.

Beatrice is not the tradition mousy maiden. She speaks her mind, is lively and merry (she was born to speak all mirth and no matter after all..), loyal and steadfast to her loved ones, fiercly witty and sarcastic as well.
She is a strong heroine, her merry war of wits with Benedick is classic and damn funny, and yet you can’t help but see hints in there that she HAS that edge of sarcasm and wit because she had once given him her heart and he saw fit to give it back.
She’s stubborn, but not in a too stupid to live way. And she has a fantastically comical sense of drama. Her sudden change from belittling Benedick to deciding to love him is great stuff, as is his moment of change regarding her.
Though I like to believe it really wasn’t a whole sudden change of heart. It’s totally clear from the get go when put together, they seem to forget everyone else.
/Much Ado Fangirling.

If I ever haul myself to grad school, I have been toying with the idea to do a Masters on Love/Hate Relationships in Fiction and Their Popularity.

...anyway.

Lisabea - Meljean writes FABULOUS flawed heroines. I think Charlie is the best (Demon Night).

OKay--everyone already beat me to my favorites--Emma Woodhouse, Elizabeth Bennet, Rachel Morgan, Eve Dallas--I LOVE THESE GUYS. 

Scarlett O’Hara?  No.  I could never warm to her.  I keep trying--honestly and sincerely--but she doesn’t do it for me. 

But one of my all time favorites is Tracy Lord from The Philadelphia Story, played by the flawed-character grande-dame herself, Katherine Hepburn.

I’ll put up with a lot, but the one that really REALLY bugs me are those that are Too Stupid To Live.

Guinevere from the Arthur legends always bugged me.

Juliet from Romeo and Juliet makes me want to scream. Romeo, too for that matter. In fact, the whole damn play is annoying with the exception of the Mercutio and the Prince. The rest were too annoying for words. Ugh.

There was a book I read...can’t remember who it was (Heather Lowell maybe? *shrug*) This heroine KNOWS she’s being stalked. KNOWS its a killer after her. Goes to her house, leaves the cops sitting out front.  Sees the back gate (that conveniently goes into the alley) is not only unlocked, but open, when she knows it damn well should be locked, and WITHOUT TELLING THE COPS, leaves the house and goes into the alley where...(say it with me)… the killer grabs her. (I mean, really. If I knew a killer was after me, I’d be like the Alcalde’s wife in Zorro the Gay Blade. 6 men surrounding me at all times so if I took one step in any direction I’d bump into one of them.) At that point I started rooting for the killer to put her out of my misery. I remember hoping it was First Book Syndrome.

But the best-written truly flawed heroine has to be from Mystery/Fiction. Carrol O’Connell’s Kathy Mallory. She’s what Eve Dallas would have been without a soul. Really and truly one of the most complicated, flawed heroines ever.

Thumbs up not to just Tracy Lord, but several Hepburn characters.  She sure got the roles and treated them well.  Maureen O’Hara is also good for flawed heroines (OMG - The Quiet Man). 

I grew up loving both the females in Jubilee Trail by Gwen Brister and Katerine from Seyton’s book of the same name.  Anyone else read these?

Ziggy, I have to absolutely agree about Rose Mortmain! I adored her hardness and practicality, even though it was so disastrous to Cassandra (who I also liked, for the record), and I also liked that even though Rose was an interesting piece of work she was real and came across as sympathetic to me. Even at her most selfish.

And I’m in the pro-Scarlett camp. She’s pretty nasty but so perfect for that novel - perfect. Couldn’t have been anyone else or the novel wouldn’t have worked. Her fascination with the facade makes her character interesting (and I too am only talking about Margaret Mitchell’s Scarlett, not that pale imitation in the sequel.)

Why did that all come out underlined? I’m not trying to yell or anything, I swear!

(soviet64 - interesting)

Juliet from Romeo and Juliet makes me want to scream. Romeo, too for that matter. In fact, the whole damn play is annoying with the exception of the Mercutio and the Prince. The rest were too annoying for words. Ugh.

OMG YES!  I have always hated that play.  Mercutio was the only person even slightly interesting or sympathetic, and he gets killed off!  Yech.

Also, I’ve never been able to get past the first three pages of Gone With the Wind.

And I agree that Meljean’s Charlie is excellently flawed.  Ruined her beautiful voice, career, and life from alcoholism, but none of that overwhelms the story; it informs Charlie’s character, just like it’s supposed to.  Loved her.  Excellent work, Meljean!

I’ll second Gwendolen Harleth. Somehow managed to be sympathetic despite being spoiled, vain and self-centred. And Becky Sharp - classic anti-heroine.

The one I was thinking of (and not necessarily a romance heroine) was Anne Shirley. She didn’t have the obvious flaws, being a terminally sweet-natured optimist, but she was dizzy, overwrought and prone to screwing up.

Been lurking here a while, and I have to chime in haha, this conversation is so interesting!

Jennifer Armintrout: First I have to mention that I read the first book of your Blood Ties series and wow was that a major emotional ride.  And sexy, too.  Thank you for writing such a gripping book, I stayed up all night to read it :) And I’m backing you up on the Bridget Jones comment. I caught the last half of it on TV one night and I think it was only Colin Firth that made me think “This movie is cute, I have to read the book now”.  But I couldn’t stand the book.  Bridget Jones descended into TSTL heroine category.  Then again, I’m not at that stage of my life yet...so maybe I can’t relate.

Backing everyone else up on Meljean Brook’s novels, which I LOVE, though I have yet to read the most recent one out.  Demon Angel will always be one of my favorite paranormal romances, and Lilith was just an amazing heroine - even as Satan’s demon daughter and had those wings and whatnot, she was just so real to me, her struggles were fascinating and the way she overcame them...was just spectacular.  I’ll stop gushing now. 

Also joining the Eve Dallas fanclub.  I started the series when it was over 20 books in last year and I’ve had to tell myself to pace myself so I wouldn’t finish them so fast!

I’m reading The Painted Veil right now, which I guess technically isn’t a romance (though the movie was, and it also has the extra plus of having Edward Norton), but how about Kitty Fane for a flawed heroine?

Add me to the Eve Dallas, Harriet Vane and Ista (of Paladin of Souls) fan clubs. I can’t agree with Austen’s Emma - I find her too annoying to enjoy her comeuppance.

As for Phèdre from the Kushiel books, I tend to agree her flaws aren’t terribly flawlike - a bit of arrogance, impulsiveness, and some natural “why me?” (not exactly conflicted, though) wibbles. But at least she’s not in the “sickeningly perfect” line of heroines (although I know she strikes some people that way).

I’ve always considered Scarlett O’Hara to be a classic psychopath, or sociopath as they say now:  Totally ruthless and self-centred, incapable of guilt or empathy, unable to love or to accept love from others; her ‘love’ for Ashley is sexual desire; sociopaths routinely mistake the one for the other, since they have no real notion of the meaning of the word.  She gets what she deserves.

Paladin of Souls is definitely a romance, IMHO, and Ista is a perfectly flawed heroine (if there is such a thing).

Does anyone else think of Jessica from Lord of Scoundrels as flawed?

And it was awfully nice to read someone *else* fansqueeing about Much Ado for a change…

I love flawed heroines (for that matter, I love flawed characters in general, but I’ll particularly seek out a book if it has a flawed heroine, because I tend to get bored with heroines who are too sweet and nice (not sure what that says about me :-).  The term encompasses such a wide range of characters.  From someone like Barbara Childe in Heyer’s “An Infamous Army” who can be selfish and self-destructive, and changes quite a bit in the course of the book (though she never becomes “sweet") to someone like Harriet Vane who has broken society’s rules and suffered rather appallingly for it and becomes brittle and prickly to protect herself to bright, somewhat self-absorbed women like Tracy Lord and Emma Woodhouse to someone like my own Mélanie Fraser who takes very morally ambiguous actions and betrays a number of people (including her husband) for (at least in her eyes) principled reasons.  Btw, it’s so fun hearing people talk about “Much Ado"--my favorite Shakespeare play, one of my favorite stories ever.