Smart Bitches Trashy Books | All of the romance, none of the bullshit.

I wish I knew. As I stated before it went off, in erotic romance, interracial and black romance sells. I would LOVE to get hit with submissions in that genre, and other race genres. But I don’t.

I scout other pubs, and unless they’re specifically black romance, they’re pretty short on titles, too. So it’s not just me, I believe.

We publish primarily white folk because that’s what’s submitted to us. Perhaps that’s also what happens on other levels of romance publishing as well. You can’t market what you don’t have, and that may give an impression of preference.

Minority culture maintains autonomy through preservation of elements unique to that culture. Language, food, social customs, sometimes religion. For Jews, it used to be Yiddish

I’ll jump in and be pedantic. What about the Sephardim?

But to address the main point about different cultures, I think it’s interesting that people have got so used to the conventions of Regency romances. I’ve only just looked up the term ‘pelisse’, but I’ve read hundreds of regencies and it didn’t bother me that I didn’t know what it meant. I got the gist - it was an item of outer clothing worn by women. Similarly, I can’t tell a high-perch phaeton from a curricle. But I don’t think it stops me enjoying the books. And yes, it does take a bit of effort to get used to Regency cant, but again, you can work out a lot from context.

If there are cultural differences from ‘white’ culture (whatever that is) present in romances about black characters (and I think that will vary a lot, depending on both the background of the characters and the background of that particular reader) there’s a clear precedent for white romance readers overcoming that barrier and happily enjoying novels set in a very different culture and involving people who use words they’ve never heard before. I don’t think, therefore, that cultural differences pose an insuperable barrier, but people have to want to make the effort, and they probably won’t if they think the novel is going to be about issues which they’d rather not think about, or if they don’t consider that setting ‘romantic’.

I had no idea that erotica has interracial and black romance audiences

Zane, an AA erotica author, is one of the best-known names in the genre.

I don’t know that I could accurately portray an African American protagonist, because I’m not African American myself.

Why is it that nobody has these doubts when writing/reading vampires, European royality, Native Americans, Asians, or like the entire 19th century. “Accuracy” has nothing to do with what sells or embraced.

‘I had no idea that erotica has interracial and black romance audiences.’

Very much so. I published a couple of titles at my old house and had many emails asking for more...not from the authors, but simply for IR and AA books. That rarely happens, the request for ‘anything’ in a genre. Screams market to me.

‘Is it racist for me to say so? Maybe. I don’t mean it that way. I do know more than a few interracial couples but maybe they aren’t writers, writing what they know.’

That’s another squicky discussion. I think some authors of different races may see that as an attempt to take over the niche they’ve created.

What is upsetting is when people decide to write for the market, but don’t take the time to research it. A common example is Yaoi, a manga-style novelization.

It’s not just two guys going at it, it has tight writing rules and character styles that require practice to get down. It also helps if you watch anime. (FMA!)

It took off a year or so ago sales wise, and people started tacking anything with m/m action as Yaoi. The result was a lot of pissed off Yaoi fans, and a general distrust of erotica pubs producing Yaoi, which made marketing very difficult.

If you’re going to foray into a new medium or genre, take the time to do it right, and I think it can be done.

Why is it that nobody has these doubts when writing/reading vampires, European royalty, Native Americans, Asians, or like the entire 19th century. “Accuracy” has nothing to do with what sells or embraced.

Must I state that some of us DO wish that some writers had a few more qualms? As a Native American I avoid “Indian Romance” like the plague. I’m sure that there are tons of books that get it right and that I would love, but having to slog through a plethora of ones that enrage me to find them just isn’t worth it.

my word is “why47” how appropriate is that?

SB Sarah,

The fact that you worry so much about what you might get wrong makes you perfect for writing that interracial, interspecies gay romance that I know you have in you.

I think those who do try to write a multi-cultural romance who think they can swing it by just making the hero/heroine have caramel colored skin or some such are totally missing the mark.

Sure a person’s culture defines them, but so does class, whether you’re American or not, etc.  I mean, wouldn’t it be difficult for a born and raised poor African-American chick to write about a born and raised rich Nigerian heroine?

Research is the key.  Major amounts.  Other than that I suppose you need readers willing to learn about a cultural they may know nothing about as well as getting the HEA.

Sarah, I’m not picking on you, and I hope it doesn’t come across that way. I know I tend to be too blunt, but I really am just conversing with you.
Anu, I think it’s because for the first two, not many are around to tell me in no uncertain terms that I got it horribly horribly wrong!

But even if somebody did say that, would that take away from your enjoyment of the book? If that book was a keeper before, would you rid it of it after? Historical accuracy is an old topic, but lots of readers freely admit that wallpaper historicals are fine with them. Wallpaper historicals sell. And we’ve all read books where we at least suspect that things aren’t exactly accurate, but we may love the characters or the sex or the dialogue or whatever, but we buy into the author’s world enough that the nitpicks fade into the background.

As for the others, I don’t know that I could write them, either. I’ve had it up to my dangly earrings with stereotypical portrayals of Native Americans, for example. And really, I’m not a writer so it’s not like I’m sticking to one genre. I’m sticking to Exactly zero genre.

Yeah I’m with you. And I am being hypocritical because I refuse to read Native American historicals or Indian and other Asian hero/heroines because everything about the way these “types” of characters are treated in romance screams “EXOTIC.” Either that or the brown characters exist solely to show how “tolerant” (how I hate that word) and open-minded the h/h are.

Given the tone of the recent discussion, which is what I read prior to writing this one, it would seem to me that getting any portrayal wrong can result in a serious shitstorm. I have to ask why that is.

So what if there’s a shitstorm? I guarantee you no author will give a shit about shitstorms if she’s wracking up sales as a result of it. And that’s exactly what happens when there’s a big fuss—readers are more likely to buy the book just to see what all the fuss is about.

What is there really to worry about? We dog each other out all the time for reading Mary Sues, for glorifying the hymmie, for alpha-jerks, for the outlandish HEAs, for the sex, the for the lack of sex, for deus ex machinas, for every goddamn thing in the genre to meat for a flame war, and the shit still gets sold, it still gets talked about, and the authors still churn it out. We’re all still standing at the end, and ready to get back into it again.

I think our hesitations over AA romances are really overblown. We’re complicating something that’s not complex at all. It’s a freaking story. And just like in any other group of stories, a handful of AA romances are awesome, some are truly godawful, most are just bleh and leave you wondering why you’re the one with good taste.

Same with “accuracy.” Some people will demand it, others will sneer at the idea, and still more just won’t give a damn as long as the story is good.

I have to admit that I have read a few African American romances, but what holds me back from purchasing them in larger quantities is that I feel like a huge lame-o nerd reading them, particularly ones that tend to be heavy with slang.  (It’s not an issue of people thinking differently of me, or being suspicious of me, it’s me.

I am a white girl who was raised in the suburbs of Texas and grew up to be a librarian.  I’m not the most socially adept person to begin with, but then to feel even more like a schlub after reading a book can be intimidating.

I guess it’s a matter of getting myself acclimated to it so I don’t feel. . . awkward. 

Interracial romances are not such an issue, because they tend to deal with the “nerdy white person” factor.

Does that make any sense at all?

How to get it right…

I was writing a story, and for some reason, my character decided she was a lesbian. I told her I wasn’t, but she insisted.

So I checked out some lesbian tomes, wrote it and handed it off to somebody who WAS a lesbian to see if I got it right. She said I did, and she was the type who would have told me in no uncertain terms if it wasn’t.

So what you need is a right bitch of a critter who is either the correct race or persuasion you’re attempting to write, and will rip you on what you mess up.

People. Get a grip. It’s fiction. The author is not giving the world as is, she’s giving you her version, slang and all. At their best, books take you to worlds, to ideas and people that you will never come across in reality. If you don’t like the world or the way the story’s told, that’s fine. You have nothing to justify or apologize for. But this other stuff is frankly bullshit.

Like, who’s reading J.R. Ward right now? If you can buy into a world in which vampires listen to rap, slang is all over the place, and dropping the letter “h” randomly into English words is the the extent of vampire language, seriously, you can deal with AA romance.

Honestly, y’all are hella smart women so you really need to stop and ask yourselves whether your hesitations and doubts are validly worth following.

Btw, I’m currently in library science school. Yesterday, while waiting for class to begin, I was reading a graphic novel called Preacher. And I almost start panting at the thought of the season premiere of Battlestar Galactica. Tell me about reading out of my element.

Wow, I see I need to invest in some Yaoi. Hominahomina....

And since we’re on the topic, or at least we were, why are all the Jewish people I’ve ever seen in romance novels portrayed as barely functional neurotics? Aren’t there mentally healthy Jews out there? When will they get proper representation in Romancelandia? Is this a function of the relatively few years I’ve been reading this genre, and there’s actually a whole body of literature with well-adjusted Jews that I haven’t tried yet? I’m just really, really getting tired of the “neurotic Jew sidekick” bit. 

It’s the same in ‘mainstream’ fiction, too.  :roll:

Maybe that’s what I’ll do--write a torrid little erotic novel with a Jewish hero who isn’t neurotic, not unnaturally attached to his Mamma and absolutely scorches the sneakers off some goy female with one hot, drawn-out, disrespect the ancestors kiss. Oooh. That’s almost got me as excited as Yaoi.  ;-)

Maybe there’s something to be said for writing about the world we wish we lived in. If fiction shapes people’s perceptions, maybe we should be using it in that fashion.

Kaite:  May I recommend Miss Jacobson’s Journey by Carola Dunn?  The title character is not only non-neurotic, but is rather ass-kicking for a Regency miss.  Unfortunately, the book is only in-print in electronic format (Fictionwise.com carries it).  If you want dead-tree-ware, used copies are available on Amazon or check your local library.

May I recommend Miss Jacobson’s Journey by Carola Dunn?  The title character is not only non-neurotic, but is rather ass-kicking for a Regency miss.

Oooh, thanks. I’ll have to hunt that puppy down!

And SB Sarah--I haven’t been spying! Those little glitters of light in the corners of your rooms are...umm...well, not cameras, no, certainly not cameras.  ;-)

I think several people here have hit on a really important point.  There is more than one way to be Jewish, or lesbian, or native American or any combination thereof.  So rather than trying to capture the entire culture in one character, the writer can go for a really well-formed character.  Sure there will be people who may feel your character’s experience doesn’t match theirs, but that’s true of all sorts of characters I read about. 
But it’s an interesting point, I have read a lot of authors who have a nice cast of secondary characters, but very few authors who had main characters that were not of their same race.  In fact - right now I’m coming up with two.  And then we could talk about the dearth of multi-racial characters.

I think several people here have hit on a really important point.  There is more than one way to be Jewish, or lesbian, or native American or any combination thereof.

Or even to be female. I rarely read Chic Lit because I find it very difficult at times to relate to stereotypically “girlie” characters, i.e. young urban professionals who wear heels, meet men in bars, use cell phones, etc. True, I may technically be a yuppy and met my partner in a bar, but it was in an underground bar above an Ethiopian restaurant, and I believe I was wearing a hoodie and boots and hadn’t showered in a couple days.

‘I rarely read Chic Lit because I find it very difficult at times to relate to stereotypically “girlie” characters, i.e. young urban professionals who wear heels, meet men in bars, use cell phones, etc.’

Same here. Those are the kind of women who always make me feel short, fat, and dirty, even if I’ve just showered. I totally can’t relate. Also, I really don’t care who I’m wearing.

Also, I really don’t care who I’m wearing.

LOL, you should. What would people think if you showed up with Fabio all over you?

Kaite--much as I hate to shamelessly promote my own work , Captain Sinister’s Lady by Darlene Marshall has a hot Sephardi pirate as the hero’s best friend. And he’s not the least bit neurotic.

Gabriel Lopez was one of those characters who showed up and wouldn’t leave.  And now his son Nathan is roaming around in my imagination, trying to charm me into making him the protagonist of my next story.

I’ve only read one interracial (Eric Jerome Dickey’s Milk in My Coffee)and it was more about issues than a love story. I only know what I see at my bookstore and black women read and buy ‘regular’ romance more than black romance authors--it’s about the story and characters rather than skin color. But the readers of black romances are a very loyal bunch, Zane readers especially. I don’t see non-black people buying romances with black people on the covers but a book by a black author with a cover without people on it will sell. I don’t know why but that’s what I’ve observed.

There is more than one way to be Jewish, or lesbian, or native American or…

Exactly. I think it’s wrong to say that my experiences growing up as a lower middle class white woman in the Midwest are going to be identical to any other white woman in the country, regardless of class or geographic placement. There is no such thing as a universal experience, but we can find common ground by writing about things that everyone strives for, regardless of race, creed, religion or sexual orientation.

I would put forth that those include love, acceptance, success in our chosen sphere, familial accord, and supportive friendships. If an author writes about those things and writes well, it’s going to strike a chord with the reader because humanity carries certain inarguable similarities. It may take an alien invasion for everyone to see that; I just hope we’re not all vaporized by a giant space laser before we get to benefit from it.

Finally, readers might have some power to lobby publishers and bookstores to change the segregation of shelving status quo. I don’t know if that’s ever been tried. Has it? Maybe it’ll take a grass roots movement from a lot of people who have said “What can I do? I’m just one person” but if a lot of those people band together and start writing letters, maybe that would help?

anu439 -
I thought I was the only person sick and creepy enough to read Preacher. Preacher is so cool, but *shudder*, after a few of those, I run back to a nice regency cupcake to level out before going on a big old killing spree.

~Kiku

I don’t see non-black people buying romances with black people on the covers but a book by a black author with a cover without people on it will sell.

Hmmmmm, I can’t speak to that one. I discovered the marvelous Beverly Jenkins BECAUSE I spotted what was obviously an historical romance with AA protagonists (and I’m all for anything where I get to picture Denzel Washington or Gary Dourdan). I’d LOVE to see some romances set at the Emperor’s court in Feudal Japan (that’s my childhood crush on Toshiri Mifune and my current thing for Ken Watanabe and Takeshi Kaneshiro showing).

Thanks Sarah.

And you are so right that the story is more important than the possibility of shoddy characterization.

That’s...not what I said.

I’m saying that everybody has their own idea of “accuracy” and how important it is (btw, do you mean accuracy or authenicity?). All an author can do is make sure she does solid research and stays true to her characters and story. Everything else, the shitstorms, the flames, the accusations and the applause...it’s all out of your control.

All a reader is responsible for is giving a story as fair a chance as she gives any other (except for stories with Native American or Asian chars which just plain suck). And if the story doesn’t work for her, if she can’t buy into the world, the story, or the characters the author created, then that’s it.

Kiku, yeah Preacher is pretty gruesome.  I’m only on the second one. Btw, I’m always looking for recs. Do you have any? So far, I’ve really liked everything I’ve read from the Vertigo line: Sandman, Fables, Lucifer, Preacher. I’m planning to read Planetary and Transmetropolitan, but haven’t gotten there yet. Also, I love Batman and WW.

Speaking as a writer, it would never occur to me not to write a character of a different race, religion or sexual orientation just because I am not (whatever it is I’m writing). I’m not a Freegan but my next novel will feature a heroine who is. I look askance at any dogma that limits my right to write. Sure, I may not write something that someone who is Freegan can nod and say, “Yes, that’s just like MY life,” but I’ll get the facts down before I start tailoring the character to who Darby is (that’s my heroine).

Beyond that, she is MY creation and if I want her never to wear shoes, although all other Freegans do wear shoes, then that’s my call. If I want to write a Ukrainian woman who is allergic to Borscht, I’ll do that too. And maybe there isn’t a Ukrainian woman in the whole wide world who IS but that doesn’t take away from the validity of my creation, does it? The point of fiction is that if we can imagine it, we can write it. The challenge then becomes writing well enough to persuade your reader, ‘Yeah, it could happen like that.’ I don’t know about anybody else but I never backed away from a challenge.

anu439 - if you like that stuff, try Kevin Smith’s Green Arrow stuff - it makes the most sense when you read at least one or two of the old Green Lantern/Green Arrow pair-ups where they go on a road trip together to find “the real America”. Lots of ‘70s fun, including cults and lots of lectures on race relations.

Mmm. The Green Arrow. Liberal superheroism at it’s oversexed best. Rowr.

*G* Rosemary. I’m black and the slang (not to mention the vampires listening to rap) in J.R. Ward’s novels turned me completely OFF!

So there you go: a black twentysomething who was raised by a single mother in impoverished situations, but speaks quite eloquently, loves reading and adores indie-rock music.

As a writer and an obsessive-compulsive researcher, getting a particular nationality, or mind-set of a time period, or different economic backgrounds ,etc is a must for me (whether it be a Highland chieftan or a Chinese empress)--and I still will never completely know what it’s like to walking in someone else’s shoes(that is simply where empathicalism steps in!).

Reading and writing are such personal things, and I know that the publishing world is run by dollar signs, but what’s the difference between wanting to try Indian food for the first time and reading a romance that features an Indian protagonist(or two) during the British Raj?

What a brave post--I’m just so delighted that you waded in there, up to your neck and are willing to start the discussion!  I can’t think of a single thing that’s touchier to discuss in American culture than race.

To go to the original question: I’ve been reading a lot of AA romance, deliberately seeking it out because I’m interested in supporting the genre and the women I know who write it, but also frankly because sometimes, I like to read about a hero who has a particular kind of sweet chest and beautiful voice (it’s my fantasy, I get to pick the things I like).  Or sometimes a Jewish guy who has thick black hair I can think of putting my hands in. Or a pirate who looks like Johnny Depp.  Or whatever.  I’m always going to go more for a lyrical, more serious read than a comedy or a romp.  Not as likely to go for historical as contemporary.  More realistic than escapist--that’s all taste.

I do think white readers are kind of nervous to pick up an AA romance sometimes, afraid to look dumb as one commenter pointed out.  Or too earnest or too geeky or too *something*.  It helps that there are more and more books out there, and more and more styles of writing, from sexy to sweet, romps and issue books.

As for interracial...if there are books featuring interracial couples who don’t have Race As The Main Issue (which, frankly is just silly in this day and age), I haven’t seen them. I wouldn’t mind reading more of them, but really get uncomfortable with a certain form of the connection.

Finally, I’m a writer who has written outside my culture quite a lot, and not with just one culture, but I have tried to stick to cultures I know and love and have some kind of connection to.  My life has been very multicultural and it would feel more like a lie to write *only* about white people than to write about all the others I love. 

Gosh! Great stuff in this discussion. THANK you!

“Reading and writing are such personal things, and I know that the publishing world is run by dollar signs...”

Okay, I know I’m totally going to be given the Bullshit Artist of the Year Award, but I’ve seen this like fifty times, and I gotta say something.

That’s the beauty of small press/ebooks--it doesn’t have to be. 

We can actually publish stuff on it’s merits, not just pump what’s popular! How cool is that? And nobody tells us who or what to publish!

Now if you’ll excuse me, my unicorn is double-parked.

Reading and writing are such personal things, and I know that the publishing world is run by dollar signs, but what’s the difference between wanting to try Indian food for the first time and reading a romance that features an Indian protagonist(or two) during the British Raj?

With food, the worst risk is finding out you don’t like it… maybe some heartburn.  With a book--badly written (Noble Savage, Best-Girlfriend Gay Guy with no sex life, Long-Suffering Uncle Tom--who was, after all, a thinly disguised Christ figure, not a subservient toady) it’s irritation at wasting the price of the book.  But a well-written book like The Color Purple--that can be genuinely painful.  I stopped reading Barbara Hambly’s mysteries about Dr Janvier, a free, educated Black man in New Orleans shortly before the Civil War, after about the third book.  Not because they were badly written (I don’t know Hambly’s race but her research seems to have been exhaustive), but because I just could not tolerate the crap heaped on a character I liked and could identify with.  And I couldn’t do anything about it or complain that it was inaccurate, because it was all true.

That’s why I don’t read much fiction centering on minority characters in the 18th to 19th century, actually. It isn’t that I think I’m superior, or that I don’t respect people of other races.  It’s because if the book is well done, the story is invariably a tragedy.  There was no HEA for anybody of color.

And I wonder if that might not be true for many casual readers.  For a lot of us, the romance genre is vacation time, time to kick back and imagine that there’s a perfect (or near-perfect) match, that somehow the bills can be paid, that someone will bring tea in the drawing room, that life can be better than reality usually makes it.  It’s probably a socially irresponsible fantasy, since the stories are invariably about people who have servants rather than people who are servants, but I think most readers realize it is just fantasy.  (And I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t really want servants wandering around the house...I’d rather have my privacy even if comes with a few dustbunnies.)

Comfortable formula does seem to sell… I wonder if there’s a measurable endorphin rush from reading romances.  When I’m having a difficult week or just feel cranky, sitting down with one of the old reliables is usually soothing.  And the way some folks insist on a particular formula or heroine/hero type seems to suggest a bit of addiction.  Offer a coffee-drinker a nice cup of herb tea first thing in the a.m. and run for your life… it may be the same thing with different flavors of romance.  (I’m not saying this in a derogatory way--I know I’m addicted to reading, but I don’t smoke or drink very much and the side-effects are mostly beneficial.)

There is a racism factor, I’m sure.  When Howard Dean was running for President, he talked about ‘unconscious racism’--the tendency of people to hire and associate with people who are similar to themselves.  He was discussing the issue with a Black educator who said he was the only candidate who even seemed to know that existed.  I’m sure that variety of racism is a part of the issue--not intentional disrespect, but moving toward comfortable familiarity instead of anxiety-producing uncertainty.  Unfortunately, calling attention to the possibity in an accusatory way is more likely to create more anxiety.

Humans, gotta love ‘em. What other species is so smart--and so confused?

But The Color Purple isn’t a romance novel.

And I take umbrage at the assumption that there were no HEA’s for people of color. There were still marriages between blacks after the Civil War, marriages between the Chinese despite being forced into labor as coolies, marriages between Native Americans despite their land being taken from them, marriages between poor Irish despite themselves being compared to the “beastiality” of blacks, etc, etc. Yeah, their situations in society because of their ethnicity would be surrounded by sorrows, but I thought the main arguement for romances is that it’s about the romance?

Why can you kick back and relax with a novel whose setting was around the bitter tragedy of Culloden, or the devastation of the Black Plague, or just a romance where the heroine is dreadfully poor in a time where she couldn’t just get public assistance or get a job, but when the protagonists are be of color, their HEA is deemed too “tragic”? (Not to mention that there are wealthy societies of blacks, of mexicans, or chinese, etc that have existed for a while: take a drive through the super-rich parts of Washington D.C. and you’d be surprised to find that most of them are owned by african-americans whose families have been wealthy and educated since the end of the Civil War)

Mistress Stef said:
“As I stated before it went off, in erotic romance, interracial and black romance sells. I would LOVE to get hit with submissions in that genre, and other race genres. But I don’t.”

I reckon I need to hit you up then!  :) Honestly my two interrqacial books have sold more than my regular AA books (at least I think so) but it is because I know there is a more devoted following for those, same with erotica.

I don’t think the stories on the basic level are different.  There are different flavors, sure.  Some mannerisms (if a fight’s about to happen, the earrings and the heels do come off) but I don’t think they’re any more alien than say, an alien romance.

Anu439 wrote:
Why is it that nobody has these doubts when writing/reading vampires, European royality, Native Americans, Asians, or like the entire 19th century. “Accuracy” has nothing to do with what sells or embraced.

Because there’s no National Association for the Advancement of Vampiric People who would protest. (that’s a joke, folks) And some Regency readers will definitely let a writer know if there are any inaccuracies in a Regency romance.

I read an excerpt where a black heroine got out of the shower with drippig shoulder length hair...and did nothing with it!  I was immediately discouraged from buying the book.  Even when I wore my hair natural, I didn’t just towel off and go on my way.  I assumed the writer wasn’t black, and I was right.  I figured that if she couldn’t get that detail right (black women and their hair) then the heroine wasn’t believeable.  So accuracy is important.

I think the argument that you have to be *pick an ethnicity/culture/gender*
to write about *pick an ethnicity/culture/gender* is utterly stupid.  If such an argument holds water, then no one has any business complaining that TV and movies have no people of color in them.

With that said, I have to say that I could not finish Elizabeth Lowell’s “Tell Me No Lies.” I LOVE Elizabeth Lowell; I have most of her books in fact. But I could NOT get past the Chinese dude who kept speaking in Confucian like idioms. I know lots of wise old Asian people and I don’t know ANYONE who speaks like that.  For me, it seemed like she was just exoticizing the Chinese and that completely ruined the book for me.

As for interracial...if there are books featuring interracial couples who don’t have Race As The Main Issue (which, frankly is just silly in this day and age)

As Seressia said, it’s passe and trite to focus on race in IR.  (Wading in, but keeping strictly to the topic of books).

I’ve been writing IRs lately and never considered using that as a theme for any of them. 

In my new release, a novella, I wrote a Jewish hero.  I had a Jewish male friend read it and was floored when he told me my character wasn’t Jewish enough!  I asked him for suggestions, listened carefully and made changes.  Then I had another Jewish guy read it and he said it was spot on.

I think that’s what you have to do if you’re not sure about cultural nuances, but it really isn’t that hard to take a little effort to make the check.

‘I reckon I need to hit you up then!’

Please do!

‘LOL, you should. What would people think if you showed up with Fabio all over you?’

Who told you I skinned Fabio? Oh, wait…

My agent is currently shopping an IR for me, and it’s with the A-list editors in NYC. I’ve read on other lists that I’m going to have a hard time selling this. It’s only been out on sub around a month, though, and I’m not the type to borrow trouble.

Maybe I shouldn’t admit this, but a lot of my heroes are inspired by someone I know in real life. I find something in a man I admire and I think, ‘Yeah, I could make a romance hero out of him.’ I’m not saying I transplant a real man verbatim to the page, but in the case of Ash, I was inspired by a black man I knew. He’s a wonderful person, lives in New Jersey, and he’s a successful IT professional who is close to his family. Listening to him talk about his mama and his auntie moved me profoundly; he is a man who was raised by a pair of strong women, and he credits them utterly with the success he knows today. I wanted to honor him, I guess, by immortalizing him between the pages of a book. Not his clone, but someone who represented the qualities that impressed me. It’s also a way of living a dream too because who wouldn’t fall a little bit in love with a man like that? And I do fall in love a little bit, every time I start writing about a new hero.

‘I was inspired by a black man I knew. He’s a wonderful person, lives in New Jersey, and he’s a successful IT professional who is close to his family.’

Oh, SWEET--a geek hunk. I LOVE that.

I read an excerpt where a black heroine got out of the shower with drippig shoulder length hair...and did nothing with it!  I was immediately discouraged from buying the book.  Even when I wore my hair natural, I didn’t just towel off and go on my way.  I assumed the writer wasn’t black, and I was right.  I figured that if she couldn’t get that detail right (black women and their hair) then the heroine wasn’t believeable.  So accuracy is important.

Seressia, very few white women just towel off their hair and go.  We straighten/curl, gel and spray our hair into submission too.

Racyli said:
“I think the argument that you have to be *pick an ethnicity/culture/gender*
to write about *pick an ethnicity/culture/gender* is utterly stupid.”

Stupid perhaps.  But it’s easier to accept the “truth” of that character from someone of the same background, unless you do your research or run that character by someone of similar ethnicity. 

The heroine’s mother in Three Wishes is Vietnamese and her father is black.  The heroine and her brother in Through the Fire identify as black.  The mother was based on two people I knew, and while she isn’t figured prominently, I wanted to make sure she was accurately portrayed.  So it’s important to do that, or you get an Asian character spouting Confuciousisms.

Maybe that’s what I’ll do--write a torrid little erotic novel with a Jewish hero who isn’t neurotic, not unnaturally attached to his Mamma and absolutely scorches the sneakers off some goy female with one hot, drawn-out, disrespect the ancestors kiss.

Kaite - You MUST write that book.  I hooked up with that guy twice in college and he TOTALLY deserves his own book.  OMG, if I had the writing skills I would give him a trilogy!!!  That boy just flat knew what the hell he was doing!  Ahhh....Memories.

Why can you kick back and relax with a novel whose setting was around the bitter tragedy of Culloden, or the devastation of the Black Plague, or just a romance where the heroine is dreadfully poor in a time where she couldn’t just get public assistance or get a job, but when the protagonists are be of color, their HEA is deemed too “tragic”?

Um… Did I say that?  I did not, you know.  And in fact I can’t.  I don’t.  The romances I’m reading right now tend toward Regency fluff and romantic mystery, with a little m/m thrown in for variety.  I don’t think I would pick up a book set in any of the situations you mention, not as escapist reading.  I didn’t enumerate every situation I find unromantic, across all human races and cultures, because--well, first, there’s not time enough, and second, I didn’t think that the disasters of Anglo-European culture was the topic.  As long as we’re going global, though, I don’t think foot-binding in ancient China was particularly romantic, and clitoridectomy?  Absolute Zero on the romance scale. I’m not big on Mormon polygamy, either, though I suppose there could possibly have been a happy, romantic household where it was seven brides for one brother.

FYI, I mostly look like my Irish ancestors, but some of my family died on the Trail of Tears.  Those that survived had to erase their native identity as much as they could to survive, because if there was anything worse than being Black, it was being a “sand n----r.” Romantic?  Sorry, I don’t find it so. I can’t change that just because you don’t approve.  And I don’t see why I should be expected to.

Take umbrage if you must.  There seems to be plenty to go around.  You can have my share, if you like; I’m just not in an umbrage mood this evening.

I don’t think, therefore, that cultural differences pose an insuperable barrier, but people have to want to make the effort, and they probably won’t if they think the novel is going to be about issues which they’d rather not think about, or if they don’t consider that setting ‘romantic’.

But I could NOT get past the Chinese dude who kept speaking in Confucian like idioms. I know lots of wise old Asian people and I don’t know ANYONE who speaks like that.  For me, it seemed like she was just exoticizing the Chinese and that completely ruined the book for me.

Actually, it’s quite desirable in Chinese culture to be able to pull off idiom dropping. That’s what the entire school system here is all about. You get idioms drilled into you as a child, taught to use them in everyday speech and writing. And people do. I wouldn’t say everyone, but someone who’s been paying attention to their Chinese teacher would probably be able to, in Chinese.

Exoticisation and romanticisation serve exactly the same purposes, to create a fantasy. Vampire, Werewolf, Alien and whatnot do exactly the same with their genres. Paranormals don’t deal with a gritty realistic view on being , they deal with a fantasy, one that you have to buy into. In most cultures, the concept of “true love” as we know it and can identify with it don’t exist. The Chinese have multiple wives and concubines, others have a culture of “walking marriages”, most of Europe in the middle ages believed in Courtly Love and marriages for political gain… the list is endless. To create the Happily Ever After and the identifiable feeling of Romance, you need some fantasy and lots of tweaking. It’s not that love can’t happen, it’s merely that a love that we can identify and decide is “happy” is more difficult.

Our conecept of “Romance” is firmly tied with Western (and yes, “white") culture. The whole one-man-one-woman-forever-and-ever business, for a start. For most of Chinese history, they’re quite happy about multiple wives (not the standard HEA) and if one took a gander at various Chinese heroes of soaps and novels and whatnot, one’d notice it’s not especially frowned upon for him to have multiple wives. Wei Xiao Bo of “Duke of Mt Deer” famously has seven wives, simultaneously, all of whom he loves very much. Various tv series feature two wives fighting over their husband and then ganging up on him afterwards. Probably not something one can export easily.

So one has to reconcile Romance with the culture one is trying to write in. If one is trying to write realistically, it’d be less of a problem, but the need for a conventional and identifiable love story with a happy ending isn’t always easily writable. It’s not easy to write honestly about a culture and write romance at the same time. Push it too far one way and you get wallpaper romance, push it too far another and, well, you get gritty, painful realism.

Most medieval stories don’t deal with Courtly Love or the state of the privies. They don’t deal with the high chances of death. Or ridiculous age differences. Or the sheer amount of tapestry one has to do. Just because they’re not around to complain about it…

I don’t mind exoticisation of my own culture (or anyone else’s, for that matter) much, to be honest. I know everyone does it, to their own cultures, at least. The British like to look back bleary eyed at King Arthur and their Golden Age, the Americans have their heroes (ala “The Patriot"), the Chinese have their world of martial arts and dresses. The French probably have pre-revolutionary France and the Japanese their samurai. Some are more stupid than others and some are more readable than others.

I personally like gritty fantasy, mud huts and magic, if you will. I read romance to be reminded that love can exist despite the difficulties reality throws at it. Though what I get more and more seems to be people who believe love can only exist in the fantasyland of their creation, between fantasycharacters without emotional reality. But that’s a different chain of thought altogether.

From what I know reasonably well to what I know less well: African American Romance (and I do know I’ll be shot down for this) has, perhaps, less potential for historicals, pirates and all the other such forays into the past. Not through any fault of their own, merely the way history has panned out. Does rule out most of the pirate/viking/regency-reading audience. Does generally rule myself out since I generally avoid contemporaries.

Equally, you probably aren’t going to be reading about hopping long-tongued Chinese Vampires anytime soon. Though do tell me, I’d love to see how they get jiggly with rigor mortis.

But then, some argue that pirates and regencies are one their way out.

If there were enough of them, other minorities would probably get their own section. Happens here, in Hong Kong, heart of Asia, “world city” (or whatever else they call the bloody place). Walk into any English bookstore and you get “Asian Interest” and “Asian fiction”. Now, whilst you might argue that it’s some vestige self-hatred from colonialisation, but it’s really more because it’s another section.

Oh, and something anyone who’s curious, OSC reviews romance: http://hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2006-09-03.shtml, and I daresay he’s not very flattering.

My book is filled with characters from all manner of ethnicities and backgrounds, but a lot of them sound very similar, and it’s because they’ve spent the past three years of their lives educated at the same college, soaking up the same campus slang and idiom and learning from the same professors. For me it would have been disingenuous to pretend that they’d picked up nothing from this period in their lives. For many people, college is as big an influence on what happens in their lives as what happened before.

But the reactions have been interesting. One reader will say, “I love that you wrote an Asian-American hero” and another will say, “he was Asian?” And then I think about a movie like Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle where the filmmakers were sure they’d have to rewrite it for some white boys, because TPTB woudln’t go for minority headliners in a teen comedy. But I went to college with harolds and kumars, and if I didn’t have ethnic names or physical descriptions that indicated race, you wouldn’t know. But I think that was the filmmaker’s concern—that Hollywood would say, “well, if you aren’t going to make their race a point of the story, then why can’t they just be white?”

‘But I think that was the filmmaker’s concern—that Hollywood would say, “well, if you aren’t going to make their race a point of the story, then why can’t they just be white?” ‘

And I think that skews perspective of other races. An aspect of racism, is assuming the generalizations are true about all of that race. This happens to ALL races and creeds. Being raised poor white trash, I speak from experience.

Sometimes this media is people’s first exposure to other races close up. Not everyone has a huge, diverse group of friends or a multicultural family.

When filmmakers and authors perptuate these myths, opinions are colored and expectations can be set. So when people of that race write something else, they’re told the characters aren’t ‘realistic’.

This may be part of the issue that Monica refers to: seperate markets for certain genres. The AA market is fine with the characters, because they know. So are those who run with those groups. But a large section of the market is expecting the cliches, and don’t purchase them when they don’t see it.

I personally accept that people are people, and so are characters. Mine tend to tell me who they are anyway.

What bothers me is when you have one dimensional ones. Like, you have three different women in a story and they literally read like clones--there’s no different voice, no real distinguishing characteristics that make you see different people. Particularly when it’s written in first person from several POVs.

Mmmm, Ken Watanabe… *drools slightly* I’d take me some of that. Yeah, I’m pretty egalitarian when it comes to guys. If they’re hot, they’re hot. *shrug* I’m real easy to please like that, I guess.  :lol:

Kaite - You MUST write that book.  I hooked up with that guy twice in college and he TOTALLY deserves his own book.  OMG, if I had the writing skills I would give him a trilogy!!!  That boy just flat knew what the hell he was doing!  Ahhh....Memories.

So I really am not the only woman out here to have a serious thing for Jewish guys? Wow. Well, I’m signed up for NaNoWriMo, so maybe I’ll do 50,000 words of hot, hunky Jewish snog. Gah. I’d spend the month in some severe frustration, but oh, my. Yes. What wonderful frustration!

And you want to know something weird? I was told in my youth by my FATHER, that I could bring any man home I wanted and he would be welcomed. Black, tan, red, Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, Santaree, whatever. EXCEPT for an Italian guy. I bring an Italian guy home, I deserve everything I get and I’m on my own. I was told this twice, once when I got to high school, once again when I turned 21 (with the caveat that it was my final warning--Daddy wouldn’t bother reminding me from that point on.)

Considering my Daddy grew up in the Bronx, I wonder what he saw as a child that made him feel this way?  :bug: I guess it really is a subjective sort of thing, the whole who we mix with/who we don’t, isn’t it? The only slur I remember hearing in the house (aside from calling us “kraut-sprouts” or “baby mickeys” because of our German-Irish heritage) was the d-word, which I won’t even spell out here.

Perhaps this is why I have a lot of trouble understanding people who judge each other based on skin color alone--my family’s prejudices were cultural.

‘Mmmm, Ken Watanabe… *drools slightly* I’d take me some of that. Yeah, I’m pretty egalitarian when it comes to guys. If they’re hot, they’re hot. *shrug* I’m real easy to please like that, I guess.’

Ditto...if it’s pretty, it’s pretty.

‘So I really am not the only woman out here to have a serious thing for Jewish guys?’

Nope. I’m not sure what it is in particular, but yeah. Maybe it’s the Hebrew. I have a thing for accents and people who speak foreign languages. Probably stems from this guy I dated briefly who used to sing love songs to me in French. Dressed up like a pirate, no less. Gotta love Faire musicians.

So I really am not the only woman out here to have a serious thing for Jewish guys?

Holy crap, me too!  Mmmmm, so good!

I also have a thing for big dumb yankee red heads (who I like to think were raised Catholic) ala Michael Rappaport.

And I take umbrage at the assumption that there were no HEA’s for people of color.

Me too. I’ve been toying with a couple of ideas for writing an historical with black protagonists . . . there are many examples of successful, free blacks in England and France. Lots that could be done with those characters. I’m deep in the middle of rewrites for my second books and plotting my third, but I’m SERIOUSLY going to pitch an 18th century romance with a black hero and heroine as my fourth book.

And I take umbrage at the assumption that there were no HEA’s for people of color.

I’ve got proof a HEA was possible: during the Civil War era, one of my ancestors - a French immigrant to Canada - married a Cree woman. We’ve got pictures of them, young and old, and I must say that they look unusually happy for people who are having to stand still for several minutes for a photograph.

‘. . . there are many examples of successful, free blacks in England and France. Lots that could be done with those characters. I’m deep in the middle of rewrites for my second books and plotting my third, but I’m SERIOUSLY going to pitch an 18th century romance with a black hero and heroine as my fourth book.’

Kudos. I think this is an area of historicals that is long overdue.

Seressia, very few white women just towel off their hair and go.  We straighten/curl, gel and spray our hair into submission too.

Crap. Why didn’t anybody tell me? I knew I was doing something wrong…

‘Crap. Why didn’t anybody tell me? I knew I was doing something wrong…’

I have waist length baby fine straight hair. My styling routine consists of rubbing in leave-in conditioner, brushing it, glaring at it, then walking out the door. It dries in about half an hour and pretty much just hangs there. But I like it.

As for interracial...if there are books featuring interracial couples who don’t have Race As The Main Issue (which, frankly is just silly in this day and age), I haven’t seen them.

BEYOND A SHADOW (a December release) will be out at the end of November, and features a white heroine and a black hero - and neither character is correctly portrayed on the cover, so readers not knowing this is an interracial romance will get a bit of a surprise!

All these women jonesing for Jewish guys . . . where were you when I was in college? That’s what I want to know.

The romance I just finished writing (and am editing) has a Jewish guy as its hero. Not neurosis-free, but hardly incapacitated by his neuroses. He’s certainly not modeled after Woody Allen, that’s for certain. And the only reason I made him Jewish was I wanted him to have a Jewish mom ;)

After reading this post and the one before it, I’ve made the following observation: It seems that a big problem for AA books reaching wider audiences is that not enough people know about them. As an African American author, I need to reach out more.

Yes, there are some out there who aren’t interested in reading black books. I’m not worried about those people. If a reader doesn’t want to read a book based on the race of the characters or my race, that’s her problem, not mine. I’m also not interested in arguing over the intracacies of race. I’m interested in action and communication. I want to move forward. I’m interested in communicating with the readers who do want to expand their horizons, who are curious, but don’t know where to begin.

In the interest of taking action, I’ll recommend some black authors you might want to check out. If you don’t want to invest with your cash, then check books out from the library.

Zane: top erotica author
Noire: urban erotica author
Beverly Jenkins: AA Romance historicals
Francis Ray: AA Romance
Donna Hill: AA Romance
Niobia Bryant: AA Romance
Steven Barnes: Sci-Fi/Spec
Tananarive Due: Spec/Horror
Brandon Massey: Horror/Suspense
L.A. Banks: (Great Vampire Huntress series)
Sharon Cullars: IR Romance
Kimberla Lawson Roby: Urban Comtemporary
Carl Weber: Urban Contemporary
Eric Jerome Dickey: Comtemporary

And my personal favorite: Octavia Butler. If you want to read an excellent vampire story, pick up Fledgling today! And Kindred is mind-blowing!

If you want more suggestions, I’d be more than happy to share.

Ooh… Thank you! Who would you recommend for romantic comedy? I am hopelessly addicted to humor, I’m afraid.

Thanks for the list of authors & genres, Ms. Knight. I copied & printed the list.

Who would you recommend for romantic comedy? I am hopelessly addicted to humor,

Humor is harder, must come naturally, I think.

Reon Delaudat

I’m funny too, but not in a slap-stick way, more snarky.

I would say I prefer a more tongue-in-cheek humor. For instance, the humorous authors I like are Jane Austen and Terry Pratchett. Words as opposed to action, I suppose. There’s a lot a so-called humor out there that I don’t find funny at all (esp. in Chic Lit.) so it’s very difficult to feed my need, so to speak.

‘There’s a lot a so-called humor out there that I don’t find funny at all (esp. in Chic Lit.) so it’s very difficult to feed my need, so to speak.’

Same here. I like wit, puns, wiseacre comments. Monica, is that what you mean by snarky?

I read an excerpt where a black heroine got out of the shower with drippig shoulder length hair...and did nothing with it!  I was immediately discouraged from buying the book.  Even when I wore my hair natural, I didn’t just towel off and go on my way.  I assumed the writer wasn’t black, and I was right.  I figured that if she couldn’t get that detail right (black women and their hair) then the heroine wasn’t believeable.  So accuracy is important.

Heh, I knew my hypocrisy would bite me in the ass. I recently heard about a romance in which the English heroine grew up in India. Even if I had been inclined to read such a story--which I’m not--I’ve seen enough comments about the liberties the author takes in cultivating the heroine’s exoticization that I know I’d grit my teeth through the whole thing. Other people feel the same way about how things familiar to them are portrayed.

I agree with you that accuracy is important to the integrity of a story. But that’s a reader’s preference and an author’s commitment to her work. It has nothing to do with the ultimate success of the story. That story about the English heroine from India will prolly satisfy many readers--maybe the book that you picked up and put down did too--because it’s either being marketed to those who either don’t know about the inaccuracies and don’t care or who know about them but still love the fantasy.

It’s like Chinese restaurants in the U.S. Most of them are so bastardized they bear only the most vague resemblance to the real stuff. But only the people in the know notice, much less care about the difference. Everybody else is just happy to satisfy the craving.

But yes, I agree that solid research is key to a good story.

Same here. I like wit, puns, wiseacre comments. Monica, is that what you mean by snarky?

I don’t really know.  I can’t tell about my own writing and I never set out to be funny, that’s just what other people say, sometimes to my surprise.

I was trying to be all scary and wrote a HORROR story and this is what a reviewer wrote.

Veteran writer Monica Jackson, loved by her many fans for her quirky sense of humor, outdoes herself in “The Ultimate Diet” a tale of one sister’s quest for the perfect body that has hilarious results.

I take it she/he wasn’t scared.