Smart Bitches Trashy Books | All of the romance, none of the bullshit.

I don’t think the sub-genre is new… but the name is.  It was always out there, but some of it defied the slot-fitting that romance seems determined to embrace.

Either way, me likes!

~don’t know if I’d ever get tired of heroines who could not only squeeze the hero’s ass but could also hand it to him in a fight.~

Love this line!  Totally agree.  It’s not right for every character, however.  I can root for a heroine who is soft and vulnerable just as well.

You know, I’m not so much tired of girl’s who kick butt as I am the covers of books about girls who kick butt.  I know Smart Bitches et al has mentioned the abundance of butt shots on covers, but I’m a little weary of the exposed midriff with pointedly placed tattoo shot.  Also I’m tired of leather pants wearing girls who kick butt covers.

Beyond that I think what makes these books and urban fantasy in general so popular is definitely the blending of genre elements you find in them, i.e. 1 part romance, 3 parts good v. evil, strong heroines to taste, a quart of world building, several cups of saving the day, garnish with a pinch of dirty, nasty sex/sexual tension with the bad guy et voila!  The perfect literary mojito.

Doesn’t seem all that new to me, either. Charles de Lint’s been writing it forever. Ditto Marion Zimmer Bradley. If I wasn’t so brain dead today I’m sure I could come up with more.

I’m a former romance reader who now reads primarily urban fantasy, and yes, my kick into the genre was Laurell K Hamilton. I still think her early books were revolutionary. At least they were to me.

I’ve now left LKH in total disgust, but have picked up a new cadre of authors I love. Just finished the latest Kim Harrison and every book of hers gets stronger and stronger.

I think I was just burnt out on romances as a whole, after years and years. I now love books with a romantic element that have something other than romance as a central pivot point. Hence Harrison, Kelly Armstrong, Lilith Saintcrow, Ilona Andrews, etc.

I’ve always been primarily a fantasy fan who also often loves romance novels.  Romance novels with fantasy elements are like candy to me.  Urban fantasy, with or without romance, has become like crack.  Kickass female heroines rock my literary world.

I can’t imagine ever getting over this phase; in my mind, I’ll love the kick-ass female heroine for ever and always.  That being said, I seem to have recovered from my Dara Joy addiction quite well.  So who knows?  I may tire of reading about women who can take care of themselves, thankyouverymuch.  But not for a long while, at least.

I think that there are more urban fantasies being featured online in blogs and reviews. The places I read online seem to review them more often than other sub genres.
Good word of mouth makes me be more likely to put out 8 bux for a book.

Also, I agree with Lijuun, fantasy is my crack lol, the diversity of world building, character development , sequel possiblities all just get my motor running. I do have to be in a certain mood to enjoy the darker urban fantasies but they have their place on my bookshelf.

I remember being a 12 or 13 year old girl, devouring fantasy and science fiction, and hungering for some girl heroes.  All the boys got to do the fun stuff and the girls so often where just so… prissy I guess.  The thing is I was and can be prissy myself but also have in general been capable of taking care of myself.  So it seemed ridiculous that girls had to be the boring part of the story, that they couldn’t kick, well, butt—since I was afterall 12 oe 13 afterall—and wear a dress. 

The first time I encountered Charles de Lint it was like freaking lightening.  A whole new world where girls weren’t necessarily cyphers.  And Marion Zimmer Bradley.  Be still my 13 year old heart. So I just lapped those up.  Afterall, most everyone was telling me and the other girls we could do anything.  Here was fiction that showed girls doing anything. 

So I guess in a way I fit the idea that as more women filled into the genre, they wrote what I wanted to read and I followed it.  It was never necessarily about the urban part of urban fantasy, but I began to know that that was where I would find girls and women I could relate to… at least more than yet another girl who most have a bath and frilly clothes every day of her adventures across the backwoods of the world.  (Yes, Polgara and Cenedra I am bloody well thinking of you!)

Will I ever get tired of the kick-ass heroine? In general no.  I get tired of poor imitations or badly drawn versions of said heroine.  I want kick-ass afterall, not dumb and too stubborn to stop arguing with everyone.  I with SB Sara on this one, I love a good kick-ass heroine. Just expect her to be well done. =)

Quite frankly, kickass heroines hit my gag button.  Hard.  But so do sooper-dooper alpha heroes.  I’m just generally sick of Unrelenting Badasses…and I mean, really sick of ‘em.

Seems to me it’s entirely possible to write an absorbing fantasy, urban or otherwise, with fairly flawed (or even slightly unlikable) characters who have multifaceted personalities that come into play when they struggle to deal with extraordinary events.  No standout “heroine”; no standout “hero”; maybe not even the ol’ HEA (although a bit o’ boink and romance never hurts).  Just multifaceted men and women trying to handle whatever crap is thrown at them.

Gee, what an outside-the-pigeonhole concept.  I’m sure publishers would freakin’ hate it.

I’m intrigued by that explanation purely because one of the best selling urban fantasy authors right now is Jim Butcher, and the main character of the Dresden Files is male.

But I have to say that I’ve been scouring the sf/f section for what would now be considered urban fantasy for nigh-on 15 years, and it’s always been there.  It’s just easier to find now.

I love it!  I’d better since I write it.  I put strong romance elements into my work, so I hope it appeals to romance as well as UF fans. 

I tried to break into the category romance market for a few years and every editor told me the same thing.  Your heroines are too strong.  I’m very into the emotional and mental traits that make women strong like compassion, etc—but sometimes I love writing or reading about a woman who also kicks ass. ;) 

UF has a strong noir feel.  This is under discussion now at http://www.scifichick.com.  Think that appeals to a lot of us.

The Urban Fantasy well seems to have been befouled by a never ending lineup of Mary Sue protagonists, or maybe that’s just the dregs of the LKH poison working its way out of my system . . . I’ve tried a bunch of them (they’re one of my best friend’s drug of choice), but have yet to find a series where I bothered to read past book one.

But I keep trying ‘em . . .

Alex is indeed Certifiably Awesome.

As for Charles de Lint et al—there’s been a real shift in UF over the last few years.  De Lint’s brand of urban fantasy is pretty far removed from the LKH-style trend that’s such a boom right now, to the point where some older writers of urban fantasy are getting annoyed by how they feel their subgenre has been hijacked.  Not necessarily a fair term for it, but I can see how they’d be a bit irritated that everybody now expects their books to have tattooed girls in leather pants and hawt sexxoring on a regular basis.

Heck—after my second book, Devi said she’d be interested in seeing me do an urban fantasy.  I said, hey, I have one already written!  But it’s UF of the older kind, and now doesn’t seem to be the right time to publish it.  I may try again in a few years, when this boom has subsided back to less gargantuan proportions.

Neil Gaiman. How could I have forgotten him!!!

I think it’s hard to narrow down the current definition of UF.  Some believe it’s first person, femine driven books.  Jim Butcher and a few other new male writers are disproving that. 

Some of the books are very sexy, but there are great UF books without all the sex.  Patricia Briggs Moon Called, Blood Bound, etc.  Also Kim Harrison doesn’t focus a lot of attention on love scenes, though there is some great tension. 

The one I’m marketing now doesn’t focus on sex, my heroine wears jeans and she discovers her magic accidentally while getting her butt kicked. (g)

Diane Duane…Does the ‘Silicon Mage’ series by Hambly count?

I like the kick-ass heroine as long as she has real limitations.  Like…Anita Blake was fun back in the day, but now she’s just a dead bore because she has no limitations whatsoever.  Every time she turns around she’s amassing some new power or compromising on some previously-held value that used to shape her life and her character. (Not to mention the obvious, of course:  that Anita is too busy having sex to actually kick any ass.)  On the other hand, a kick-ass heroine like Mercy Thompson who DOESN’T have that convenient and bottomless storehouse of power and who saves the day while still relying on her friends for help is an interesting character.

I enjoy SOME urban fantasy (and paranormal romance) but what’s really bugging me is how overly sexual so much of it has become.  I feel like the oversexification is detracting from the story that’s being told.  I mean, face it—the more pages an author devotes to sex, the fewer pages she can devote to the real plot or story.  Plus some of the sex just seem so…gratuitous.  Sex sells, so it seems like authors are just cramming it down our throats.  (Er…)

I’m also tired of 1st person POV.  It’s so incredibly limiting as far as storytelling goes.  It also seems to feed the ego of the protagonists, turning them into a 7-headed (were)hydra in the blink of an eye.  So much self-absorption!  So much self-indulgence!  (So much of my vomit in my mouth.)

Women change any former male bastion that opens up to them. I really like the Patricia Briggs covers—here’s a female character who shows a little skin, but she’s not doing it to titillate men, in fact she looks like she’d kick your ass if you looked at her funny. Every time I see those covers I think “I gotta read that!” once I get through my ginormous TBR pile.

I profile kick-ass heroines on my blog just about every Friday in both Romance, Science Fiction and Fantasy in books, TV and movies and there’s always many characters to choose from.

I loved this part of your post, Sarah:

I love love love her and don’t know if I’d ever get tired of heroines who could not only squeeze the hero’s ass but could also hand it to him in a fight.

The Urban Fantasy well seems to have been befouled by a never ending lineup of Mary Sue protagonists

This is my problem. I’m all for strong women characters, but a lot of the urban fantasy gorgeous/feisty leather-panted heroines seem interchangable to me.

I’ll shout out for Carrie Vaughn’s “Kitty Norville” series. Kitty has some real limitations and vulnerabilities, and they’re intelligently handled. She grows as a character throughout the series.

I also like Rachel Caine’s Morgantown Vampire series. Claire has brains, not brawn and at 16, is younger than the standard heroine. My complaint is she’s a little too good to be true. I actually prefer Eve, the Gothy sidekick.

And of course, Tanya Huff’s Bloodties, with Vicki, whom I worship and adore.

I’m a pure fantasy addict from way back, and have slowly warmed to Urban fantasy. When I first experienced it, it felt like a shortcut (I want to write about fantasy style magic and powers but I don’t want to bother to do any world building).  This was /never/ true of some of the masters of Urban fantasy, it was just my initial prejudice.  I think CE Murphy is awesome, and obviously de Lint.  There one some short stories (I think called Borderlands?) with fairy urban fantasy once that knocked my socks off, can’t recall the author, but one that riffed on the Tam Lin story, but the heroine (with elf like hair) was being played.

Right now, I’m completely over “Over powered” kick arse heroines.  Don’t go down the Superman route, where each time she meets a snag, she grows a new superpower.  Examples of paranormal/urban type fantasy that I think does it right with the mix of kick-arse and vulnerability? Carrie Vaughn (Kitty and the Midnight Hour). Charlaine Harris’ Sookie character.  Kim Harrison.  Karen Chance. 

And people who oh-so-nearly get it right but then give people too many powers?  Kelley Armstrong, (mostly love her, but PLEASE, how unbelievable is that ‘only one female werewolf evarrr’? LKH (but hell with it, I’m still reading her stuff ... I’d just like her to tone down the bulletproof). I fear some of it is just the great love for a character that makes series continue, rather than switching to a new protagonist.

And then there’s what another rant referred to as the paranormal “Bridget Jones” stuff which mostly just makes me want to throw books at the wall.

Another factor (I think, anyway) is that our society now allows women more and freer reign, and so in authors’ minds it becomes more possible and more likely that heroines can kick ass and look good while doing it. My first experiences with strong heroines in non-urban fantasy still had women in non-traditional roles—Tamora Pierce’s Alanna disguised herself as a boy to become a knight, and Robin McKinley’s Harimad became a champion horseback rider/fighter. Now that it’s completely accepted that heroines can do whatever they like, Anita Blake can be a professional necromancer (when she’s not having screamy-sex with a Were—but don’t get me started), Mercy Thompson can be a mechanic, and Rachel Morgan can be a runner and witch, and they can be all these things and still be feminine. Even Jacqueline Carey’s Phedre and Richelle Meade’s Georgina, while essentially sex workers, are the very best (dominant?) at what they do, and are respected for it.

And then there’s what another rant referred to as the paranormal “Bridget Jones” stuff which mostly just makes me want to throw books at the wall.

I’ve never heard of this. I can guess at what it might be, but would you mind elaborating? I’m curious.

Never been a big fanatasy/sci fi fan. My first love has always been romance. That being said, I love the paranormal romance and that has led me to a few UF books which surprised me because I never thought I’d look in that section, ever. I do love the kick butt, take no prisoners, but still have feeling character that many female writers write about.  I think that male authors sometimes have trouble writing a female character that is multi-dimensional and since up until a few years fantasy/sci fi was mostly male authors I think alot of female readers never bothered. I want more kick butt female characters although the covers do get boring after a while.

I’ve come to enjoy UF quite alot.  The elements of here and now, with withever interesting, magical, fantasy elements the author chooses.  It’s fun…real life amped up.

Historicals are past tense, society as it used to be and we’ve grown out of.  I’m easily bored with them.

And, you can only read so many “millionare, virgin, sheik, who’s your daddy” books before the brain totally turns to mush and you find yourself fitted for a little white jacket.

Urban Fantasy is fun, adventure, mystery, and romance without the “romance” label.

There one some short stories (I think called Borderlands?) with fairy urban fantasy once that knocked my socks off, can’t recall the author, but one that riffed on the Tam Lin story, but the heroine (with elf like hair) was being played.

The Borderlands stories/book I think is Emma Bull’s “War for the Oaks” - an early and under-appreciated part of this genre.

Is the latter maybe Wen Spencer? I think the title of the first book was “Tinker”.

One of my favorite Urban Fantasy books is Emma Bull’s War for the Oaks.  If you haven’t read it-go now and order it.

Also agree with Tanya Huff and Mercedes Lackey.

I do believe the influx of female authors and kick-ass, take no prisoner heroines have brought a wider audience to what is now termed Urban Fantasy. It’s always been there, just not as “out there” so to speak.
Having a larger pool of authors that are not afraid to take chances and are really stretching the boundaries breaks the previous molds as well.
Besides, publishers jump all over each other when sales jump in a particular area. Look at all the new Women’s Erotica lines. There has always been erotica in the romance novels but it wasn’y packaged as such. Now that publishers know there are sales to found in books with heavier erotic content, once only acceptale to the shelve space of the Anonymous books, the publishers have practically fallen all over themselves to start a new imprint.
So now you get the edgier fantasy, women characters. There are sales to be found and women buy more books than men.
Whatever the real reasons behind the trend, Yippee. Bring ‘em on!

Having been a Fantasy and Romance junky for fucking ever, how awesome is it that I can get my fix in one happy little package?

Fiamme said “There one some short stories (I think called
Borderlands?) with fairy urban fantasy once that knocked my socks off,
can’t recall the author, but one that riffed on the Tam Lin story, but the
heroine (with elf like hair) was being played.”

The Borderland’s series of short stores was edited by Terri Windling.  There are several collections, most out of print, but worth it if you can find them.  Both Emma Bull and Will Shetterly wrote stand alone books in this world.  “War for the Oaks” was not part of this series but certainly is similar in content. 

Why do I know this?  Because I love the Borderlands stuff and have tracked it all down.  I thought about selling my soul for a couple of hard to find volumes but managed to find a more reasonable price. ;)I especially recommend the later volumes as I think the world is more fully devoloped and the stories stronger across the board.

This totally makes sense, especially the theory about us being broader-minded in our reading tastes. I mean, if you’re willing to deal with the heaving breast covers and the stigma of reading romance and so on, you’re ready to read ANYTHING.

Whether one is tired of the Kick-Ass Heroine, this ‘archetype’ is key to these changes occurring within the genre[s] - somebody has got to kick in those doors.

OK, OK let just say that I’ve been reading SF/F and romances and mysteries for longer than the smart bitches have been alive.  We ALWAYS loved kickass heroines (when we could find them) and always loved smart heroines who twisted the stereotypes but we just couldn’t find very many of them.  Harlequins didn’t have any of those and they, along with heroine fleeing dark house or historicals were all we could find.  I will throw out one real oldy for those of a certain age.  How many of you have ever heard of Elsie Lee?  She was great—smart, funny, heroines who turned the conventions of the genrue on their heads.  I’ll never forget one scene…it was a dark and stormy night in the castle, heroine sees a light in the deserted wing.  Does she take a candle (cause the power is out) and investigate? No, she thinks if I take a candle and investigate I’m likely to get bashed in the head. So the next day she invites some photographer friends and their models to shot in the castle filling it up so that the bad guys won’t have a chance to get up to whatever.  Similar smart and unusual answers were Else Lee’s norm.  If you can find any of her books, you’ll love them.  In fact one of her early novels was in such demand they reissued it in limited ed. for libraries where it was extremely popular on interlibrary loan.

Kick ass heroines aren’t new just newly available to readers.

I love fantasy. The vast majority of what I read is fantasy, and one of the reason I’ve always been drawn to the genre is that, for as long as I’ve been reading, it’s had heroines who were allowed to save themselves.

Marion Zimmer Bradley is a big one-she even started a short story series based entirely upon female heroines (and no rape & revenge stories allowed thank you very much). Mercedes Lackey followed in her footsteps with many different series with strong, complex female heroines.

And then there was as mentioned the Borderlands series (I still need more books in this series. BAH!) and even earlier, Thieves’ World.

Like someone mentioned earlier, my first introduction to urban fantasy was Charles de Lint, who is one of the top ten best authors I’ve ever read. He writes complex characters of both genders, and has fantastic amazing world building. But his urban fantasy is utterly unlike that of Hamilton or Harris or Harrison—in fact I now hesitate to place them in the same category.

But I eventually found urban fantasy and LOVE LOVE LOVE it. Why? Short and sweet, what urban fantasy gets right is the ability to tell a story in A SINGLE BOOK. I look at some fantasy series and think, I don’t want to start that, it has ten books, each about 600 pages, and with nasty cliffhanger endings. But urban fantasy (except for some books, and those are the ones that tend to piss me off anyway) tell a complete story arc in a single book.

The urban fantasy books I love best are the ones that carry the same characters from book to book the way a good mystery series does. I am enticed to pick up the next book because of strange characters and story telling, not because I was left hanging at the end of the last book.

You want me to read more of your books, then impress me with your story telling. I don’t have the time or interest to read five or seven or ten or twelve 600 page tomes.

Was that a rant? Sorry if it was. Don’t get me wrong—I love fantasy, and I even love heroic fantasy. But most of the time I’d rather read an entire story in a single book, rather than invest in giant tomes that may or may not end before I retire.

I would say that these days I read a lot more Urban Fantasy than anything else, however, sometimes I just want a well written enjoyable not so complicated romance. SO I guess I go in phases - a writer friend of mine once told me that she is a seasonal reader and I guess I am too.  I read much heavier dark stuff fall to winter and lighter well done romance in spring and summer.  How weird is that to just realize?

Enjoyed the post.

I will *always* love a good urban fantasy.

I think popular television shows have a lot to do with the surge in urban fantasy novels. Specifically, BUFFY and HEROES, but probably also SUPERNATURAL (which I have never seen but I hear has a dedicated following).

I cut my adult-reading teeth on urban fantasy and mythic fiction, and it bugs me that UF is just “now” being considered a female trend, when authors like Emma Bull, Marion Zimmer Bradley, and Mercedes Lackey are some of the founders of the genre. Charles de Lint usually gets credit for really getting it off the ground, I think, but, I mean, War for the Oaks? Classic urban fantasy.

Actually, it really, really irritates me. LKH does not deserve a quarter of the credit she gets; maybe the popularity of the genre among romance readers owes something to her, but it was a perfectly fine subgenre before she came along. (Wow. Do I sound like a cranky old lady, or what?)

And Terri Windling deserves a shitload of credit for being the editor who actually got a lot of those early urban fantasy authors published.

I wish urban fantasy writers and readers no ill will, but urban fantasy bores me to death. I’d rather go back and read Pepys than read ten pages out of an urban fantasy novel.

Personally, I read all over the place (although admittedly mostly in the various flavors of genre fiction) But the relatable element is kind of paramount. If I can tie it into reality where I can conceivably see it happening in my life, then it works much better for me.

That said, I was kind of raised on this stuff. The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe? A Wrinkle in Time? Not necessarily full fledged urban fantasy as we know it today, but there is the transitional element from the real world to the fantasy world, and definitely a stepping stone for me.

If you look at the NYT list as a gauge for popular interest, in recent years the only science fiction and fantasy authors who hit the list as first timers were mostly urban fantasy writers: Charlaine Harris, Kim Harrison, Kelley Armstrong, Keri Arthur, Laurell K. Hamilton, etc.  All female, all writing the urban fantasy kick ass heroine or rather a version thereof. There are, of course, exceptions like Neil Gaiman, Neal Stephenson, and Jim Butcher. Though two out of those three were also writing urban fantasy. 

While urban fantasy existed before this huge explosion that has come in recent years, when we reference the authors, there are only a few that pop into mind: Charles de Lint, Emma Bull, John Crowley, etc. I can’t think of a plethora of names like I can today.  Plus, earlier authors didn’t publish what we now think of as such a huge part of the urban fantasy landscape – the girls kick ass.  So to me, this is still a relatively new sub-genre to have taken over so much of publishing landscape. And one that is still continuing to grow at an exceptional rate.

And I LOVE Supernatural and HEROES. Obseesedddd.

My first love was scifi/fantasy and I cut my teeth on Andre Norton’s “Witchworld” series, followed by Ursula K. LeGuin’s Earth Sea Trilogy. Romance novels came later with pubescent hormones. I’ll also admit to reading Louis L’Amour. Urban Fantasy/Romance, in many ways, is just a modern western with a female protaganist.

I have every J. D. Robb (yay LaNora) Eve Dallas book and I consider them UF/SciFi. I also admit that I have most of LKH’s books. I quit reading them when she projected herself as AB and became such a Mary Sue and so damn smug. (And Nora, I apologize for mentioning the two of you in the same breath. Your work is head and shoulders above LKH’s.)

I read Jim Butcher. I’ve read Anne Bishop. I’ll be working on Patricia Briggs after I finish the three Lori G. Armstrong “Julie Collins” books.

I’m with Nifty. First person POV is limiting to the plot as far as I’m concerned, even though I was asked by an editor to consider rewriting the Urban Paranormal/Fantasy I’m currently attempting to market. FP POV been done to death.

I do find it interesting that the stories I’ve been telling for 20 years are just now finding a label. I’m glad as now I have a marketing hook. SBSarah, great topic!

*blinks*  *adds addendum* I was asked to rewrite from 3rd person to 1st…*headdesks and points to signature on emails: Read my mind not what my keyboard types. ;P

*adds one last thought* I just finished listening to a discussion among some male friends who are all gamers and something occurred to me. In the past few years, there has been a proliferation of kickass female avatars in video games and these guys actually play the female role. This very likely has opened up the market for UF with strong female protagonist to a mixed audience. Just a thought…

In the past few years, there has been a proliferation of kickass female avatars in video games and these guys actually play the female role.

A male friend and avid gamer told me something similar a few months ago.  He says gender roles, and gender interactions, are changing in all forms of role-playing games.  One example he gave was a new rule book on including sex (and relationships in general) in Dungeons & Dragons.

... and of course someone’s studied it.

68% of women who played computer games online have chosen male characters, often to ward off unwanted attention from men or to gain the upper hand over opponents.

Meanwhile, more than half of men who played games online adopted a female persona so they could “flirt” with other characters or avoid being targeted by fellow gamers, the Nottingham Trent University study found.

Yet another who “found” UF due to CDL. It really took years for writers other than, say, Huff, Bull, Bradley and Crowley, to come up with anything as well written and that fit the same category (imho). I reread CDL so many times, waiting and waiting for publishers to put out other writers who were like him.

Since that was in the late ‘80’s, and I am still happily reading UF, I can’t see my long term affair ending with it, anytime soon.

What I can see, is my author list being culled, due to authors jumping the shark, or not knowing when to end a damn series.

Hello. Long time lurker. First time poster. *waves*

I only discovered urban fantasy a few years ago and Holly Black’s urban faerie tales for young adults really opened that up for me. Charles de Lint, Emma Bull, et all. (War of the Oaks is as good as everyone says. Go read it now.) Never would have found them but for picking up a Holly Black. It really did change my reading habits and what I love to write. (can you tell I’m working on writing a YA UF?)

I don’t really have too much useful to contribute to the discussion because it’s all been said. I have noticed that in Young Adult especially it seems like all the covers have faeries or vampires on them and you turn it over and sure enough it’s UF. The genre seems to be invading the bookstore all over!

Anyway, really I admit I just wanted to pimp Holly Black because she deserves to be pimped. *is shameless* She would be a great one to review for this site. Her novel “Tithe” has a really great romance and a cool story. I didn’t see anyone talking about her in the comments thread, which is shame because even though she writes YA her story are really gritty and sexy and good.

Just to clarify my “Bridget Jones paranormal” comment for Reileen ...this rant http://community.livejournal.com/canonrants/92550.html covers it pretty well. No, not my rant, but I was trolling google for paranormal rants after bending my husband’s ear over it and getting a blank look, and finding out that trying to search google on Weresluts (because I couldn’t get why they seemed to be inextricably linked in some authors minds) turned out to be a Very Bad Idea.

Examples of this kind of genre (chick lit mixed with paranormal) would be Undead and Unwed, Bloodsucking Fiends (both entertaining but couldn’t survive a re-read) and some truly appalling tripe : case in point Last of the Red Hot Vampires ... yes the name should have warned me but I didn’t realise it was a category romance.  Thus I had not adjusted my expecations sufficiently.

Those kind of kickass heroines (or heroes) don’t appeal to me, but if you don’t read within a genre it’s hard to say anything sensible.
I’ve always read fantasy, so that’s not it - I like Neal Stephenson, Neil Gaiman etc. Have to say, given all the Charles de Lint love, that I couldn’t get through the book of his I bought. And I hated the one LKH I read.

Marianne McA-I would gather, that most of us who found UF via CDL, did so, from his Newford books. The first 2 (not the Kay books), were short story collections, set in the city, with the same set of characters threaded in all the stories. That slower build up, imho, is the best way to read his works. Once you have read the collections (at least the first 2), then, any book set there, makes SOO much more sense and you are vested in what is going on.

Others stated off with Moonheart (I want to live in Tamson House), which, is a damn fine tale. Which one did you try to read?

Moth-I agree on the Holly Black rec’d. I think I have seen her post here before!

Actually, I “met” CDL through Jack the Giant-Killer, his contribution to Terri Windling’s Fairy Tales series. It was later republished, together with its sequel, Drink Down the Moon, as Jack of Kinrowan.

Jack the Giant-Killer was the first book I began reading again as soon as I finished it. I mean, I got to the last page, and flipped back to the beginning and read it again. It literally opened a whole new world of books for me.

And Jackie IS a kick-ass heroine…but a flawed one with problems, who makes mistakes, etc. Loved it.

PS The name “urban fantasy” is not new. It was around in the 80s. No idea why the label appears to be new to people.

RfP said:

In the past few years, there has been a proliferation of kickass female
avatars in video games and these guys actually play the female role.

I came across this phenomenon when I profiled Lara Croft on my blog. The movies took that character in a different direction than solely teenage boy fantasy. She’s taken seriously and even ogles both Daniel Craig and Gerard Butler without being considered slutty.

While writing the article I found this one from Wired by Clive Thompson that talks about male gamers playing female roles and the Final Girl motif in horror movies.

Just finished the latest Kim Harrison and every book of hers gets stronger and stronger.[\quote]

I finished it yesterday - and I definitely agree. The book was great; there was lots and lots of delicious action crammed into those pages.

And then there’s what another rant referred to as the paranormal “Bridget Jones” stuff which mostly just makes me want to throw books at the wall.[\quote]

Agree on this one as well - I abhor the Bridget Jonesy UF books. They do absolutely nothing for me, except putting me in a less than agreeable mood.

All in all, I am pretty omnivorous when it comes to books, but I must admit that I have a soft spot (softer spot?) for urban fantasy. I vastly prefer the ones whith an actual plot, as opposed to the ones which are love stories in a slightly different wrapping (don’t get me wrong, some romance can be just fine, but I prefer it when the romance - or sex, for that matter - is not the main plot line in a book). Carry Vaughn, Karen Chance, Kim Harrison, Kelley Armstrong and Charlaine Harris are some of my favourite authors in the genre right now.

I’ve loved fantasy books since I was quite young - I remember how thrilled I was to find something to read that was not Nancy Drew. I don’t think I could define exactly why fantasy/UF appeals to me, but I do know it was love at first sight (read). My hubby doesn’t read any kind of fantasy, as he claims he “doesn’t find the paranormal parts believable at all”. I have tried to convince him that a good fantasy/uf i oh so much better than a mediocre mystery or thriller. I have not prevailed yet, though.

Hm. I seem to have botched the quotes. Oh well.

Not UF, but I still cherish my first Kick ass heroine.  It was Jirel of Joiry by C. L. Moore.  The other day I found my old 1969 copy, nearly falling to pieces in my hands, and laid it aside for a reread. 

An author I have not seen mentioned whose latest work fits into UF (with a touch of romance) is Lynn Abbey.  Her Behind Times books are very appealing—a university librarian discovers a book left for her by the mother who abandoned her as an infant.  She finds out that she is a curse hunter, a special type of creature who can walk through time and a mysterious otherworld type place, seeking curses which have corporal existence.

I described it as UF for the baby boom generation because you see the heroine and her friends dealing with parents in nursing homes, stepchildren, annoying exes, etc. 

There are four and I’m not sure how many Ace still has in print:  Out of Time, Behind Time, Taking Time and Down Time.

Maggie - it was called ‘Widdershins’, and I think it was a Newford book. I seem to remember reading reviews to try and see which book that could be read as a stand-alone, because it is always a bit of a gamble to jump into things mid-series. Perhaps it was a bad choice.

I think you may be right about needing to be vested in the characters - from what I remember, I read about half of it, and still hadn’t really connected with any of them. And you needed to be concerned about the characters to want to read on and see how the various situations resolved themselves.

(Also - and this is probably a stupid observation: nothing new - I’ve an odd idea I’d enjoy him more if I’d ever been to the US. I always feel that way about Garrison Keillor as well - that I lack the proper frame of reference to enjoy him fully.)

Marianne—even though Newford uses the US legal system, it’s technically neither a US city nor a Canadian one. He wrote about that once, b/c, especially in the early books, it has a lot more Canadian attributes than American ones. (One of the first full Newford novels felt very “alien” to me…of course, I felt doubly confused, b/c not only was it a much more Canadian setting, but Newford is clearly in eastern North America, a place I had rarely been until I was 17.)

But…uh…yeah. If you tried to read Widdershins without any of the background, I think it’s totally reasonable that you’d be completely, utterly lost. And I don’t think it’s his best work, either. I recommend Forests of the Heart or Someplace to be Flying if you want a novel-length intro to Newford. The first short story collection is Dreams Underfoot, and that’s really the best intro there is, though the first story is not set in Newford. (The first story is…odd. I like it.) Plus, it’s fabulous.

And if you’re really into more traditional urban fantasy (no elves, but fairy tale creatures brought to life on the city streets), let me recommend Jack of Kinrowan.

Oh, and the best Newford novel, IMHO? Memory and Dream. Beautiful and heart-breaking and not a little scary.

Marianne- Yeah, what snarkhunter said, totally. Widdershins, no way would you know about Jilly and Geordie, and what the blurb said, about how everyone knew they were meant to be together. It builds, in the short stories, how they met and their in’s and out’s as close friends. A lot would have been lacking in the story for you, for sure. No matter what people say, the Newford books, if Jilly is in it, should be read in order, as CDL builds her character, via interaction with others and the reader will miss things, that to me, are the lovely bits that make Jilly so damn COOL.

If you can find it, WIld Wood (with the Brian Froud art), is amazing!

I find that I’ve been reading a lot of what is considered Urban Fantasy recently - having started both Jim Butcher, Kim Harrison, Patricia Briggs and Vicki Pettersson in the last year.  I see that no one has mentioned Vicki yet, but I think people should check her out, she dragged me into her books and I couldn’t let go until I was finished. 

I love books and I find that I tend to prefer books with strong romantic elements be it fantasy or mystery or science fiction.  My preferred genre is SF/F though. 

However, I just like good books.  I like books that are well written with an interesting plot.  It doesn’t have to have romance in them, but if the romance works and is believable I love that too. 

I don’t think I care if the protagonist is male or female, though I agree with many people in that the “superman” complex in characters, where they are all powerful and have no flaws, drive me absolutely nuts.  I can suspend my belief only so much.

And I don’t think it’s his best work, either. I recommend Forests of the Heart or Someplace to be Flying if you want a novel-length intro to Newford.

I absolutely LOVE Someplace to be Flying and it’s one of my all-time favorite deLint books, though I’m also really fond of Moonheart and Greenmantle, too.  (Moonheart was my favorite until I read Someplace to be Flying).

I’ve liked urban fantasy for a while, and wanted to give a shout out for Terri Windling’s book “The Wood Wife” as a fine, early example.  (I noticed that she got mentioned as an editor a few times, but if you like the genre and haven’t checked out her novel, you should.)

A fair bit of magical realist work that has been around for a long time and tends to get classified in general fiction seems to me to have a lot of overlap with urban fantasy.

Favorite Elsie Lee moment: Heroine identifies the man who killed her husband. Heroine breaks both his arms and has to be pulled off him before doing more damage.

This was written in the early 1960s, definitely before the resurgence of feminism. And nice little heroines didn’t get revenge back then, Heck, they don’t now, either. Which is why urban fantasy appeals.

Oh, Sally!! I’m so glad you mentioned The Wood Wife (though it’s not a particularly early book—it was published in 1996).

That is, hands down, my all-time favorite book. I usually take it with me when I travel, b/c if I run out of books for some reason, I can always fall back on The Wood Wife. It’s gorgeous.

Headnote 1: Jirel of Joiry was published in 1934 through 1939 and was written by C. (Catherine) L. Moore.

Headnote 2: Good comments all so far.

Now.  I wanted to talk about the Superman/Mary Sue issue.  Basically ever superhero has to have hi/r krypton.

I’m writing a series that I call the Shapechanger Chronicles.  One book is finished, its sequel is half done, and I’ve begun and done some research on a parallel novel with another main character with plans for several more.

I deliberately chose to write about a character who is invulnerable.  Can’t be hurt, can’t be killed, even if the body is vaporized she can take a new body.  Has powerful weapons, can kick an entire army’s butt if need be.

I solved the Superman problem in three ways.

Mary McCarthy is a 53-year-old Irish farmer’s wife who returns from the dead in 1854 an immortal shapechanger.  Her body, in recovering from death, has also repaired the “sickness” of aging, returning her physically to 13.  She also has some esoteric powers which I won’t go into, except to say they can be powerful weapons.

Solution 1 - Mary makes friends and cares for people.  Tough and canny, she got her family through the 5-year Great Famine because of industry, creativity, and courage.  A caring mother but unable to continue her old life, she travels, exploring her new self, finally finds a home in an orphanage.  There she gets the nickname of Granny McCarthy for her manner.  She makes two close female friends, mothers the youngest children, and impresses the adults with her industry and maturity.  Her krypton is not physical, it’s emotional.  She cares.  She can’t be hurt, but others can.  And as the years go by it becomes ever clearer than she will still be young and strong when all those she cares for are dust.

Solution 2 - All her seemingly magical powers are not.  There are realistic bases for them, though she won’t understand just what they are for a century or two.  Nor will the reader.  But her capabilities have rules that limit them.  For instance, she can change her skin color in less than a second.  Her bones take weeks or months to change shape and become strong.  Other parts of her take intermediate times.  She can ensure her brain is perfectly healthy (blood flow unimpeded in any way, cancers or embolisms or whatever healed, etc.) but understands she must be very very careful in making any changes, including making them slowly so she can catch a problem before it gets too bad.

Solution 3 - Her physical, cultural, and social background is minutely researched and (I hope) vividly expressed.  She and readers LIVE in that time and place.

Note that I give readers just enough detail, carefully picked to be evocative, so that readers will build the reality that Mary lives through from their own experiences and imagination.  They know that Mary can do the impossible because they see it with their very own (imaginary!) eyes.

Anyone curious to know more Google “Laer Carroll” AND “Mary McCarthy” and you’ll find the first three chapters of the first, completed, book online, which are also a self-contained story in itself.  Not a cliff-hanger.

Laer

So far about anyone has said about urban fantasy is that it has kick-ass heroines, with (at least potentially) free hot sex lives, and often a noir or even horror element.

There’s another element.  UF is densely detailed WITHOUT THE DETAIL.  UF stories take place in a shared daily reality of modern cities.  If one goes to Montreal or New York or LA or New Orleans or Paris or Berlin all the writer has to do is describe the differences between the cities.  And likely describe in a very elliptic, allusive way.

Further, you can have an urban fantasy that takes place in other times.  My Shapechangers Birth and Shapechangers Progress take place in several years around 1860.  Most of the action is in Cork City, Galloway, Dublin, and Belfast, with later in the 2nd book in Liverpool and London.  I have to mention jarveys rather than taxis, horse droppings on the roads, and gaslights rather than street lights.  Mary McCarthy has to purchase entreé into a lending library because publically funded libraries had not been invented yet.  Department stores were newly invented.  Ditto sit-down restaurants; sit-downs were mostly only in private clubs or pubs.

For that matter, it seems that you could have urban fantasy in the future.  Piers Anthony has done that but no one else I can think of at this moment.  But as of now it’s only recently that if magic happened it had to be before modern times.

Laer

I’ve been reading urban fantasy since the 80s, before it had initial capitals. I’m happy it’s having a surge in popularity, in its good and even its less good forms, but I’m surprised to hear it equated to ass-kicking heroines. To me, urban fantasy and ass-kicking heroines are intersecting but not equivalent sets, or alternatively you could plot them on orthogonal axes. ;)

I’m also a bit surprised by how broad the term seems to have become, at least if you go by that Wikipedia article. To me, urban fantasy should be more than “fantasy that takes place in our world, where there are cities”—it should have some interest in the city itself. The “urban” part is at least as strong in “classic” urban fantasy—War for the Oaks and de Lint and the Borderlands series, for example—as the “fantasy” part. I don’t really consider Carrie Vaughn and Kelley Armstrong urban fantasy, much as I enjoy both, because the city just isn’t as important in their work. (And did someone mention Neal Stephenson? Since when does he write fantasy?) For another modern example, I would class Kim Harrison as urban fantasy—the city really is an important part of the work. Holly Black and Melissa Marr, likewise. I’d even propose any Terry Pratchett novel set in Ankh-Morpork as urban fantasy.

(Incidentally, for Fiamme, above, I’m much fonder of Kelley Armstrong’s non-werewolf novels—Dime Store Magic and Industrial Magic and Haunted, for some. The werewolves kind of irk me.)

(Also, for some reason I can’t type “fantasy” today.)

So…
Does Keith Urban get a percentage?
Gross or net?

Something I find interesting is the supposition that Urban Fantasy is drawing in female readers now because SF/F is really only “just” promoting women writers who write what women want to read.

I was a die hard SF/F reader for most of my younger life.  I lived and breathed SF/F.  I think women writers have had a respected place in SF/F for decades.  That may be because, from my readings of the genre, male writers as well as female writers were willing to create strong powerful female characters in their books ... women were routinely depicted in leadership roles, captains of space ships, intelligent, problem solving heroes in their own right.  So I think SF/F was more accepting of women as writers & characters then some other genres. 

I got away from SF/F about 15 years ago ... it just seemed to take a direction I didn’t want to follow.  I migrated to Romance when I discovered that the things I loved best about my favorite SF/F books were good character interaction & love stories.  Once I found writers in Romance who were as good as the SF/F writers, I discovered a world that highlighted character & love with support from well written plots.

I’m slowly getting into urban fantasy because the feel of the stories is similar to what I enjoyed in my youth. 

I’m pretty omnivorous in my reading, enjoying nonfiction, romance, mystery, thrillers, some SF/F & urban fantasy, etc.  Which is a good thing.  Romance is my prefered genre, but I’m still picky enough that when there are dry spells, I can feed my reading bug from other genres.

OMGoodness, Electric Landlady, I just had the same thought about Pratchett’s Ankh-Morpork being the setting of urban fantasy—very heavy on the fantasy, but if Ankh-Morpork ain’t urban, I don’t know what is. Uber-urban, even.