Smart Bitches Trashy Books | All of the romance, none of the bullshit.

Given how few self-published authors sell more than a handful of books, I think the vast majority of the money in this case will be flowing to Harlequin and Author Solutions from authors rather than from readers.

I think it’s a bad idea, and Harlequin’s reputation (such as it is) will be harmed by this brand.

Before getting excited about this, check out ASI’s track record:

http://accrispin.blogspot.com/2009/01/victoria-strauss-author-solutions.html

I am just all around impressed with Harlequin and the all sorts of awesome they seem to be churning out!

Color me clueless, but as a “maybe-this-is-the-year-I-actually-finish-a-book-and-submit-it-to-publishers-author” with the start-up of Carina, why would one choose to go for the self-pub instead…is it because Carina is exclusively digital and the self-pub includes pb’s?

While we’re on the subject…is it still better to seek a lit.agent prior to sending out submissions - even to an e-pub?

I hope all this awesomesses from HQ does much to stem the negative attitude associated with e-pubs…that or roll over it in BIGCRUSHINGWAVE mwah hah ha!

Wow!  This is big news.  I mean with the proliferation of self-publishing and in some cases, leading to a regular publishing contract, Harlequin is making a bold and probably savvy step. 

A friend of mine self-published a series of books that were very successful.  That success brought her to the attention of Sourcebooks who is now her publisher.  It seems that Harlequin means to jump on the bandwagon early on or at least engage in a low risk/high reward business model.  If the self-published authors already have a platform (my friend did) and write well (my friend really writes beautifully) but perhaps might get lost in the traditional publishing channels, then Harlequin skips the part where they come in late after the author/book has proven that they can drive sales and build an audience.

I think it’s genius. 

Would I want to do it myself?  No, not yet, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s a brilliant idea and an equally bold and strategic move.

Jesus Christ on a pink pogostick.  $360 for a one-page press release?  $600 to buy a review somewhere (which might not even get published!)? $479.00 plus $29 *a month* to create and host an author website?  Oh, but a mere $90 to get into Google Booksearch and Amazon Search Inside (and another $90 for Barnes and Noble!).  I guess that’s supported by the $8,399.00 it costs for the six week publicity package.

Crikey.  If I had that kind of money to throw around, I wouldn’t need to sell any books.

$342.00 for a 1700 word sample edit.  $204 for US copyright registration. Dude.

Nice money if you can get it. Actually picking up any new authors is just going to be gravy on top.

*koff* I have a knitting Etsy shop, and can make you some socks if you like…there’s nothing in the shop right now, because I’ve only been taking custom orders.  madberry.etsy.com.
Okay, shameless plugging done now.

Great way for them to make money in a down market. Nothing against self-publishing but I think they are deluding their brand.

The vast majority of self-publishing services are essentially parasites on the hopes and dreams of aspiring writers.

This one, by dint of its connection with Harlequin, is worse: because now it will make people believe that at the low, low cost of $599 (more, if you want to sell anything), they may be able to get an Actual Publisher interested in their work. It’s an audition, if you will, at a huge cost in terms of promotion.

This actually makes me feel sick to my stomach.

I also don’t see how this can be “ground breaking” when Harlequin is the second publishing house to partner with ASI. And I think it is an insult to Angela James, Carina, and DRM-free content to mention them in the same sentence as self-publishing.

Yeah, I’m not thrilled. A brilliant financial move for Harlequin (I’m sure Torstar is rubbing its hands in glee) but the potential for author exploitation is worrisome.

Writer Beware’s post on Thomas Nelson’s recent deal with ASI has some rather prescient comments, given this news.

Dear Anonymous,

I take exeception with your comments. We’re thrilled to be partnering with Harlequin on this project. Tens of thousands of authors have realized their publishing goals with an Author Solutions brand. Self publishing has become a popular option for an increasing number of authors who have struggled for years to bring their stories to the marketplace.

I would encourage you and all readers , to contact me directly with any questions or concerns you have about this partnership.

Best,
Kevin A. Gray
Author Solutions, Inc.
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

So, let me get this right: HQ has affilliated themselves with the “pay-to-play” market? Wish I was the proverbial “mouse in the corner” at RWA headquarters right about now.

Kevin, I take exception to your thrill.

Those tens of thousands of authors generated work that was deemed unworthy of publication—in most cases, by more than one agent or publisher. Yes, a small percentage of your authors go into self-publication with full knowledge and don’t have any illusions about their books’ legitimacy in what you call “the marketplace.” But most of them refuse to see the forest for the trees.

There is a reason those stories “struggle,” as you put it.

If people who write unpublishable books want to spend their own money to put them between shiny covers, then they’re entitled. But when Harlequin attaches its name to this process, it disappoints me beyond measure. And it makes me see your gleeful, arrogant thrill as nothing more than arrogance.

I hope this blows up in the face of everyone involved.

Sorry, I agree wholeheartedly with Nobilis and Anonymous. I am totally shocked that Harlequin would dilute its brand and take advantage of writers in this fashion.

Kevin A. Gray, I have some questions for you. Of those “thousands of authors” who’ve used your service to print their books, how many of them have sold over, say, 75 copies? To people other than themselves, I mean. (75 is the average number of copies a self-published book sells, if memory serves.) Also, how many copies did your best-selling title sell, and did it remain with you or did the author move on to a commercial publishing house? 

What were their “publishing goals”? Because most writers I know don’t have “sell copies of [their] book out of [their] garage and personally beg local bookstore managers to stock it” as a “publishing goal.”

What is the typical price of your books? Are they trade paperbacks, like most print-on-demand titles? Are they POD, or do you do print runs, and how much do you charge writers for those?

What is the distribution system you have in place for these books?

How many of those books have made it into bookstores? How much did the writers of those books pay for your services, and what did they get in return? Do you have an in-house sales/marketing staff who will push your books to buyers, which is really the only way books make it into bookstores nationwide (and is something commercial publishers do for free, in addition to paying authors for their work)?

Do you have any evidence that your “marketing packages” make any difference in sales at all?

I’m with you, Anonymous. This makes me ill. With all the work so many of us do to teach aspiring writers how publishing really works, and that they deserve to be paid for their work rather than the other way around, and that writing is a craft which must be learned and practiced…all this does is set more new writers up to lose money and have their dreams crushed. How many of them will see this and fall for the sales pitches of self-publishers, when their books could have earned them money rather than cost them, and could have led them into a real writing career?

And NO, this is not the same as legitimate epublishing.

I’m so disappointed in Harlequin, and in any major house that does this.

Wow, really?  So, do they lose their RWA affiliated publisher status now?

Yeah, I’m fairly eager to see the big RWA back-pedal that must be coming.

Is this self publishing (where author keeps all rights, monies, etc while hiring others to do things like create formats or covers) or vanity publishing (where author pays to get a book in print while also giving up rights and monies to the printer)? I didn’t see a contract anywhere on the new website.

Either way, I’m sure Harlequin won’t be the second publisher (saw something about Nelson on Writer Beware) to “leverage” their thousands of rejects into revenue.

Awesome.  The more options the better for everyone, I think. 

I went to the site and no where does it make promises of book sales, contracts or make mention of anything to prey on the hopes and dreams of authors.  They’re offering a service that some will think is worth the price and others won’t. I imagine they’ll do well with it too the same way wedding planners, travel agents, personal shoppers and real estate agents do well with the services they offer.  It’s a solid business model not a scam.

Just watching the back and forth in the comments here is incredibly educational for me. I am new to all of this, have yet to ever try submitting anything anywhere, so have yet to be rejected, accepted or fill in the blank. I most certainly have no intentions of going the self-pub route now (or maybe ever) but it’s clear that the publishing world is changing and the more options available to authors the better, I suppose.
However, reading the responses, I realize how HQ’s new self-pub offer could take advantage of a writer…though in my book if you don’t do your research before writing a check, you deserve what you get. Someone posted some excellent questions and I am interested to see the answers.

My “real job” is teaching children’s theatre - and one of the first things I tell parents is to never pay an agent to help make their kid famous or fall for those star search contests that have huge entry fees. Like many have said, if you are good enough to make it - people will pay YOU to work with you.

I’m still flabbergasted that HQ has signed on to this.

Dear Authors, if you really, really, really want to get a book out there, any book, why not try an epublisher first. Not all are top rate, but even if you get in with a less than stellar house, you will get some form of editorial services without paying for them.

Take that information, learn from it, apply it, and keep going. Learn more with each edit or rejection form. (Because most of the editors in the eworld will provide some feedback even with a rejection.)

And yes, I understand that some houses only focus on sex, but others aren’t that way.

Or, better yet, find a set of critique partners with like-minded writing interests. Then hone your craft together and submit.

MamaNice, I just left you a message on your blog. :-)

MamaNice said: 

Like many have said, if you are good enough to make it - people will pay YOU to work with you.

This may be it in a nutshell.  They’re going after those aspiring authors who are tired of submitting, tired of getting rejected, and who might simply be willing to pay someone some $$$ to finally get their words between two covers. 

I imagine there is a market for this.

Dear Kevin,

I’m the first Anonymous.

I have no problem with the concept of self-publishing, but if you think offering a $3900 “personal media valet” package here: http://www.harlequinhorizons.com/Servicestore/ServiceDetail.aspx?ServiceId=BS-6175 to a self-published author who can’t even get their book in most Barnes and Nobles is doing anything other than preying on hopes and dreams, you are as delusional as your authors.

That is wasted money. If you don’t think so, then give up the statistics so people can make an informed choice—of the people who purchased that package, what kind of sales did they get? How many of them came close to selling enough books to justify the price tag?

Put up the information, or shut up about the “opportunity.”

I do freelance editing and book design in addition to my day job (I have 15+ years of experience in both magazine and book publishing, just FYI), and all I can say is, wow, these prices seem really high.

The next time someone gives me crap about a quote on their project, I think I’ll send them over to the Harlequin Horizons site and open their eyes a little bit to what these services can cost at a big outfit. ;-)

Secret word: market48. Guess the people at HH think the market can support $4,800 book packages!

So if I were, with eyes open and fully aware of my responsibilities and risks, to take the Horizon option, how is that in any way detracting from another writer’s experience?

It’s the line about “eyes open” that is where the anger stems from. ASI in particular I think specifically deludes its authors as to the possibility of reward, and provides no statistics for people to form their own profit/loss statement in their mind. It appeals to peoples wants and fears, rather than laying it out in a business-like manner. That’s what makes it predatory.

For me, it’s personal because there are people near and dear to me who have been burned, particularly by ASI. Should they have done more research? Yes, I definitely think so.

I have no problem with self-publishing, or with authors spending $ on promotional dollars. But in my mind ASI is barely one cut above “Hello, my name is Dr. Nginrina, and I am the former bank treasurer of Nigeria.”

Through this strategic alliance; all sales, marketing, publishing, distribution, and book-selling services will be fulfilled by ASI; but Harlequin Horizons will exist as a division of Harlequin Enterprises Limited.

I’m appalled by the improper use of semi-colons. One hopes this does not represent the quality of the Harlequin editing services.

There was a pertinent tweet yesterday from Paper Tyger, a former Bantam editor with 11 years of experience:

papertyger the slush pile: it’s way worse than you think. imagine textual Regretsy - 99.9% misguided, incompetent, or obviously insane.

I don’t know why we (or Harlequin) would expect self-published books to be any different. Yes, there will be gems. But I can’t help but wonder if the prospect of digging out that .1% is really worth the dilution of Harlequin’s brand with the inevitable tremendous load of dreck.

I published a book through this company and have to say that they took pretty good care of me. I haven’t made my initial money back, but I don’t necessarily expect to either. Some people spend $1000 on golf clubs or quilting fabrics and a sewing machine or paints and canvas. I spent my hobby (writing) money on getting my book published. How is that a scam? I got what I paid for. My salesperson was really upfront and honest. He said that I need to market my book myself if I want to succeed and I do that. I’ve sold just under 100 copies in three years, which is pretty good I think.

The people who get burned are the ones who are so deluded that they think that they will become bestsellers. And these people are the ones who will yell SCAM faster than anyone else. They just don’t listen to what the company is actually saying, I think. I LISTENED so I knew what to expect and I got exactly what I expected. I don’t feel ripped off becuase I didn’t make my cost back yet. Honestly the thrill of holding my own book in my own hand is worth every penny I paid.

If you know anything about what the publishing industry is going through, you know that even “real” writers (with degrees and books already published and agents and everything) are having problems getting published. The rest of us are on our own, so I’m glad that someone stepped up to offer the service for sale. If you don’t think your work is worth investing in, why should you expect anyone else to? Stupid people who have unrealistic goals may feel burned by this, but if you asked the questions and listen to the answers, you will find it’s a pretty good deal. And if you don’t think that, follow your gut and don’t sign up and give them your money. Its not that confusing.

And, btw, I’m not sure if this is self-publishing or a vanity press.  It seems to me that the “promotion package” makes it the latter (real self-publishing is when the individual actually becomes the publisher, hires the designer, printer, etc, does the promotion, and arranges distribution. It doesn’t include “distribution help” from the “publisher).  This is an opinion seconded at teddypig:

Harlequin will distance themselves from Digital Only Publishing with Carina Press but slap their “good” name all over a Vanity Imprint. Sorry, this was a totally bad business move. Ripping off writers usually is and Harlequin sold their “good” name to Author House.

The full article is here:

http://www.teddypig.com/2009/11/reader-beware-harlequin-becomes-a-vanity-press/

Sarah, I will try to answer your questions from my viewpoint. I cannot speak for others.

When you published, you had a viable product that the house thought they could sell. They paid you an advance, whatever amount, and put their team to work on it. Cover art, editorial, etc. In epublishing the advance is usually nothing, but the royalty rates are higher, just to distinguish between the two.

In either case, you as the author, pay no upfront costs. The eceteras are handled by the house taking a risk on you. And trust me, they don’t want to toss their moola into the wind in hopes you sell ten books. They plan on volume, even if they miss the mark on that estimate now and again. And they usually have more contacts to get books listed for sale than a lone author. Not always, but most often.

But if you want to self publish, no criteria exists. If you can’t string two sentences together, it is of no matter to them. If you can’t sell more than ten books, it is of no matter to them. You paid for all the bells and whistles and that is that. They are happy.

Truth be told, in either instance you will still have to fork over bucks to promote your book. It’s the norm now.

And I agree that if you go into the Horizon option well-versed, then no harm done. To work it, an author should well versed in all the ins and outs of such a venture.

The reason why many of us are up-in-arms is because the majority of newbie writers aren’t well-versed. If they pay, they will have a published book. And everything must be kosher because HQ endorses it, right? You know, that whole idea of “star” endorsement.

Why the anger? Because it’s Harlequin, who brands themselves as the largest publisher of women’s fiction in the world.

Had it been xyz press, that’s another matter. Harlequin is tainting its “real” authors with this.

Now a self-pubbed author, who just wants a book with her or his name stamped on it, can pay to have the Harlequin name and say, “I’m a Harlequin author!”

How long before Harlequin stops paying its regular authors advances and decides to chuck that model into the can because now they can fish out gems from their pay to publish authors?

Gag me.

No serious writer who strives for a career in the publishing industry should consider any venue that violates YOG’S LAW:

“Money always flows toward the writer.”

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/

Or its corollary: “The only place an author should sign a check is on the back, when they endorse it.”

Both from author James D. MacDonald.

$599.00 buys an awful lot of postage for sending out queries, sample chapters, and outlines. Sometimes you don’t spend anything at all, as many agents will look at e-queries now.

Though I’ve been told it’s a bit out of date, this site shows just how much some Harlequin authors make on books placed in the HQ lines:

http://www.brendahiatt.com/id2.html

The lowest advance a first novel can snag for a new writer is $2,600.00 for an American Romance.

Crunch the numbers, new writers.

Should you pay $599.00 for a book that *might* sell 50 copies (if you’re REALLY lucky).

Or should you go for a $2,600.00 check that puts a pro sale solidly on your resume and decisively opens the door for additional book deals?  For pro writers it is not about selling ONE book—it’s about selling all the others they want to write.

You will also have copies of YOUR book stocked in every supermarket, drugstore, Target, Wal*Mart, Borders, and B&N across the US and Canada.

That should be a no-brainer.

The HQ announcement says “possible pickup” of one’s title for its “traditional imprints.”

“Possible” is the key word! Look up the definition. There is no guarantee that will ever happen.

If you have amazing sales in the thousands, then hell yes, they’re going to check you out, but as has been stated above, most self-pub books don’t sell well, if at all. If you unload 50 copies, then consider yourself VERY lucky indeed.

I *can* see that this self-publishing venue will serve better for already published writers wanting to get out-of-print titles in front of readers again, but there are lower-cost services for that. Heck, you can upload a book for nothing on Lulu!

One may buy 10 ISBN numbers for 275.00
http://www.isbn.org/standards/home/isbn/us/isbn-fees.asp

And electronically file for copyright registration for 35.00
http://www.copyright.gov/docs/fees.html

Compare those costs to the ones offered on the HQ site.

Here’s what author Patricia Simpson did with some of her previously published titles:

http://www.patriciasimpson.com/articles/publishing.aspx

It cost her some cash, but she’s gradually getting it back.

Please note that she’s pro-published with a wide readership base, not a first-timer.

A neo hoping to match her numbers with a first novel should not expect to do it.

She also states at the end of the article that she will shop her next book around to the New York houses BEFORE she considers self-pubbing it.

Mama Nice—If you can get an agent, do so, but I do not think a *good* one will be shopping books to e-houses, since they tend to pay on royalties only, not writing you an advance check against royalties.  With very few exceptions e-books are generally not considered to be a pro-credit.

Also, it is a rookie mistake to shop a book to e-houses and small presses. Most e-pubs don’t pay an advance, and for some books the advance is the only money you’ll ever get.

Some small presses may be wonderfully reputable, but they don’t pay much and have to be VERY picky since they have high overheads and low profits. Some print less than a dozen titles a year, compared to big houses who print 100s.

When shopping your book you ALWAYS start with the biggest publishing house you can find and work your way down. They are in a better position to take on new writers.

You never know—they might LIKE your book!

I’m asking honestly, without rancor or sarcasm: why is this making you angry, if you’re pissed off?

Hey, Sarah. I would never suspect you of asking that question with anything but honesty and a lack of rancor or sarcasm, and I’m going to do my best to answer it, so bear with me, please. :-)

I understand that source of your anger, clearly, from the perspective of having spent time educating aspiring authors on the intricacies of publishing. But why does this make you and others so angry?

It makes me so angry for several reasons. One, yes, from the perspective of helping aspiring authors, many of whom did not see the warnings until it was too late and ended up hurt and broke, with their dreams destroyed, because they were promised they’d get to be “Published Authors” only to find they weren’t, not really. People who spent lots of money above and beyond printing costs to promote a book readers couldn’t find. People who tried to get their books stocked in bookstores, as they’d been told they could do, only to have the employees inform them it was never going to happen. People who thought this was the way it worked and discovered it wasn’t. People who got out of their vanity contracts and tried to sell the book to a commercial publisher only to find their first publication rights were gone. People, some of them talented, who gave up because of it, who lost years of their lives and thousands of dollars.

But there’s a larger reason as well, which I’ll get to in a bit.

The experience of publishing a book taught me that I must expect to pay for some of the effort of marketing, publicizing, and basically selling a book after it’s been produced. Yes, we received an advance. But I paid for travel, promotional items, and other expenses after the book came out.

Of course. We’re expected to shoulder some of those costs these days, you’re exactly right. But every dollar you or I spent or spend on promotion is backed up by the fact that our publishers actually get our books into stores, through their sales force. They get us table or endcap placement. They get us mentioned in bookseller newsletters. They ask popular authors in our genres to blurb the books to get us more attention. They put us in newsletters people who read our genres actually read, because the publisher puts the weight of its reputation behind it. A reader hearing about our book can go out and buy it in a store, for a reasonable price, and it will appeal to them because they have a pretty good idea what they’re getting.

If I were to write another book, even with a contract from an established publishing house, I’d likely pay for an editor who works for me, not the publishing house - because with the cutbacks and layoffs inside publishing, for every one editor there may be 10 or more books, to say nothing of the possibility that the editor who has my mythical book now may not be the same editor who bought it. The environment within and around publishing is such that as a prospective author of a book, I would want to have more oversight into the editing and production of the book.

This is where you and I disagree. I know all about changing editors; I lost my original editor at Del Rey when Random Houses made its cutbacks late last year(?) and yes, had some extremely tense and nervous days before discovering I was lucky enough to have been given a new editor who loved my books just as much as the original one had. It’s stressful and confusing and flat-out terrifying, absolutely.
But I wouldn’t hire an independent editor, because I believe as a professional writer self-editing is my job. And I’ve never felt pressured into making edits I didn’t want or carrying my books into areas where I didn’t want them to go. I’ve never felt I couldn’t voice my opinion to my editor(s) or that I don’t know what’s happening with my book, or that I can’t ask questions. My writer friends have all had the same experience.

I write fiction; you write non-fiction, and you know I admire your work as a writer. The two worlds are a bit different, so I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that as a fiction writer I wouldn’t go that route. (Incidentally, for non-fiction self-publishing can be a much better bet. I don’t have an issue with self- or vanity publishing per se, I just believe it’s harmful for fiction writers and readers, for reasons—the Big Reasons—I’m about to discuss.

This is one hypothetical experience, but it’s not uncommon. So if I were, with eyes open and fully aware of my responsibilities and risks, to take the Horizon option, how is that in any way detracting from another writer’s experience?

It’s not just writers. It’s readers. I did a couple of blog posts about this a month or so ago, actually, and here’s the gist of my problem with self-publishing for fiction, especially as it relates to the possibility of such being this Great New Horizon in publishing:

When self-publishing becomes the only option, only the rich will be able to publish. When publishers can make more money taking cash from aspiring writers than by selling books to the public, writers and readers both suffer. Writers who can’t afford to publish will be lost, or we’ll have to go back to the 18th century model and whore ourselves out to rich “patrons” who might agree to pay for our publishing—not pay us, but pay to produce the books themselves.
Imagine a world where the only books on the shelves are those written by people with enough money to pay to have them published. Very little quality control, no attention paid to whether or not the book is actually worthwhile. How much fun will reading be then?

From my blog:

We’d have books written exclusively by those who could afford it. Much like in the 18th century, when so many books were diaries of some peeress’s trip through Europe with titles like, “My Gleanings.” FUN. I know I can’t wait to read books written exclusively by the wealthy, with no viewpoints other than their own. I’m sick of hearing what baby boomers think already; I can assure you I don’t want to read more of their “Gee, the sixties were sooo great!” back-patting. I know I can’t wait for a world where books written by those from other cultures have no chance to be translated into English and released here, when we become even more ignorant of the lives of those in the world outside because there’s no way to get their books in front of English-speaking audiences. Oh, and of course, given that self-published books tend to be much more expensive, thanks to POD technology, I can’t wait for a world when reading and books are even less available to the poor. When they don’t have the same opportunities thanks to their inability to get hold of books.

Oh, what’s that you say? Oh, right. The internet will provide all of that. Of course. Because I know when I want something to read I’d much rather spend hours and hours slogging around online looking for something decent than just go to a bookstore. I know people who can’t afford books totally have the money for laptops and ereaders and the internet. So in seeking to democratize literature, what you are actually doing is STEALING IT from those less fortunate than you.

We’d also have a lot more unreadable books. I’m sorry, but it’s true. For every excellent work of self-published fiction–and they are out there, make no mistake–and for every one that’s not bad, just not terribly polished or professional or interesting, there are dozens of horrible ones. Really.

Let’s not forget that the way most people learn proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling isn’t through school. I mean, we do learn those things at school, but we develop those skills by reading. So you tell me, how literate will we be as a society when there are no professionally written books? When there are no people to judge if a work is even readable or not before it gets published? When anything goes? Would you like to go back to the middle ages, when words were just spelled however they sounded? Because I wouldn’t.

To go back to my original question: why the anger?

The anger is because I love books. I love reading. I love writing. And I don’t want to see those pleasures—and I’m not exaggerating when I say there have been long periods of time in my life when they have been my ONLY pleasures—disappear.

It won’t happen overnight. I hope it won’t happen at all. But this is, IMO, a huge step in the wrong direction, toward a future where books are irrelevant. To me, that’s a future without hope.

I am sad, very sad because i think many authors who could be better, do better, and have real writing careers might get diverted by the perceived value of the Harlequin brand into this kind of package—in which the great majority of authors do not even end up in the black, and their books essentially go unread. 

They make no promises but neither do they say that their avergae sales figures are almost certainly in double-digits.

Your confusion about the outrage, SB Sarah, is understandable because you’re thinking of this like a business person, looking at this as a possible way to go about self-publishing as a business opportunity.  From your perspective, there is nothing outrageous about this proposal, since you understand about marketing and you have a platform built in with this blog. It might be a good bet for you.

But this isn’t aimed at you. It’s aimed at Jane Book-of-my heart, who doesn’t see beyond having her name on a Harlequin book.

Look at the phrasing here. Dare to dream. Achieve your dream of being published. The sad fact is that self-publishing carries a taint for a reason. Too often it trades on people’s artistic dreams. People with no head for business, no idea what kind of time and money output is going to be required for this to be anything other than a costly venture.  There are many many writers who will pay out their money certain they will be that .1% that is “discovered” by Harlequin and brought into the fold.  It’s not wise, it’s not logical, but that’s the type of person on whom self-publishers make their bucks.

I mean, we’re ALL already pinning our hopes on being the next Roberts, King or Rowling, all playing the lottery of first getting in front of the right editor with the right project at the right time.  However, in traditional publishing models, no one is making money off of our unpublishable submissions. We’re only out our time, and some ego points. In this case, the enterprise stands to make a substantial profit off of someone’s “dream” of writing a Harlequin novel.

PLUS… Romance writers are already struggling against the stereotype of “oh, anyone can write one of those books.”  I hear this all the time. “If I ever wanted to get rich quick, I’d just dash off a couple of those trashy romances and make easy money.”  This makes it literal:  Anyone with cash can get their name on a book with “Harlequin” on the cover.

What Stacia said.

And there’s also the inherent cruelty of the copy on the site. “Have you always dreamt about being the center of attention at a book signing event featuring you, the published author? If so, then the Marketing Plus Package is for you.”

REALLY? A self-published book will make someone the center of attention at a book signing event? Not in any actual bookstore I’ve ever been in. Most won’t even order the books. For this to happen, they’ll need to pay for their own venue and throw a big party. Maybe they have the resources to do this—and that’s fine. But it’s not what’s being described above. Additionally, if this is what the prospective author wants, there are other services that can assist with it, and at far less cost.

I’m traditionally published and I’ve had my share of signings where I wasn’t even remotely the center of attention. I was confused for the coat check, information, and customer service tables, but not center of attention. I think the whole site encourages unrealistic expectations. It’s not a way to buy the dream, just the fastest way to an empty bank account and a broken heart.

Everything that Stacia Kane said. Wow. Excellent posting! Brilliant and insightful.

Anna J. Evans

(Sorry, everyone. I don’t mean to take over the comments section here. I’m just very passionate about this subject.)

@Shana:

I published a book through this company and have to say that they took pretty good care of me. I haven’t made my initial money back, but I don’t necessarily expect to either. Some people spend $1000 on golf clubs or quilting fabrics and a sewing machine or paints and canvas. I spent my hobby (writing) money on getting my book published. How is that a scam? I got what I paid for. My salesperson was really upfront and honest. He said that I need to market my book myself if I want to succeed and I do that. I’ve sold just under 100 copies in three years, which is pretty good I think.

Those are fairly decent sales for a self-published book, yes, and I congratulate you. And I’m glad you feel it was worth losing money, and that you viewed this as a hobby. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I’m genuinely pleased to hear you’ve had a satisfactory experience.

I also don’t believe anyone here has called this a “scam.”

The people who get burned are the ones who are so deluded that they think that they will become bestsellers. And these people are the ones who will yell SCAM faster than anyone else. They just don’t listen to what the company is actually saying, I think. I LISTENED so I knew what to expect and I got exactly what I expected. I don’t feel ripped off becuase I didn’t make my cost back yet. Honestly the thrill of holding my own book in my own hand is worth every penny I paid.

Here’s where I find myself a bit offended. It’s not “delusional” to write a book and believe it could sell to the public in great numbers, and it’s not fair to call the authors of such books names. Especially not when Harlequin itself uses language like:

Titles published through Harlequin Horizons will be monitored for excellence and retail potential for possible pick-up by Harlequin’s leading traditional imprints.

I can tell you that were I a newbie, just starting out, and saw THAT, I’d be thinking this was a way to bypass the slushpile, with its year-long waits. That my book would be the one that Made It. Did someone read you that line before you self-published? I’m guessing no, from your comments here, but I’m perfectly willing to admit I could be wrong.

Am I delusional? Well, I’ve thought a few of my books so far were good enough to be commercially published, and guess what. I was right. Not everyone who dreams of being a professional writer is delusional.

If you know anything about what the publishing industry is going through, you know that even “real” writers (with degrees and books already published and agents and everything) are having problems getting published. The rest of us are on our own, so I’m glad that someone stepped up to offer the service for sale. If you don’t think your work is worth investing in, why should you expect anyone else to? Stupid people who have unrealistic goals may feel burned by this, but if you asked the questions and listen to the answers, you will find it’s a pretty good deal. And if you don’t think that, follow your gut and don’t sign up and give them your money. Its not that confusing.

Yes, publishing is a difficult business. Always has been.

But again, I take exception to the idea that anyone who thinks their work has wide commercial appeal, and believes the lines on the HQ website, is “stupid.” Publishing is a confusing business. There are a lot of people out there spreading as much misinformation about it as they can in order to line their own pockets. It’s not “stupid” to fall for a line like “Titles published through Harlequin Horizons will be monitored for excellence and retail potential for possible pick-up by Harlequin’s leading traditional imprints.” It’s not “stupid” to believe in oneself, or to have dreams, or to try to make those dreams come true.
I think my work is worth investing in, you bet your ass I do. But I DID expect someone else to invest in it, and again, both Random House and Simon & Schuster agreed. Because I’d learned enough to know that’s how it should work and that I *shouldn’t* be expected to invest in it myself. I worked hard to get to a point where others would invest in my work. It’s not an impossible dream. It’s just one that shouldn’t cost you that much.

But seriously, guys. I COULD win the lottery if I buy enough ticketz! Iz not lie!

Massive.  Shark.  Jump.

It’s interesting to see how many people gushed without hesitation, and how many people shut up and hid, too.

Wow.  Massive mistake.  They are now a Vanity Publisher.

What if Coca-Cola started let people bottle their own soda and label it Coke Horizons?  What if 90% of those colas were horrible, as they inevitably would be?  What would it do to the Coke brand?

That’s the source of my dismay.

I can’t help but laugh that it’s Stacia K the “phone psychic” who is all up in arms about “aspiring authors, many of whom did not see the warnings until it was too late and ended up hurt and broke, with their dreams destroyed” because an adult spent money to get their book published. 

All this talk about an “empty bank account and a broken heart” just because HQ is offering a service for a fee seems pretty far fetched. I get that the authors who’ve posted here don’t like the direction HQ is taking the publishing world with this new venture but spare me the poor-stupid-author-scammed-by-harlequin outrage—I’m not buying it.     

“Stacia Kane has been a phone psychic, a customer service representative, a bartender, and a movie theatre usher.”

*Falls over laughing*

Tabetha, if you don’t believe authors will spend their last pennies, trying to make their dreams come true, you’re dead wrong.

I once read a very moving account from Sherrilyn Kenyon. They were literally down to their last few dollars, and she used it to post a manuscript. Her story had a happy ending. She’s enjoyed phenomenal success and deserves every bit of it. But what about all the people who spent their money and have nothing to show for it? It’s fine for you not to care, but don’t say it never happens.

Tabetha since when are authors or artists not allowed to take other jobs to make ends meet. Seriously if you think publishing pays enough for authors not to take other jobs to make ends meet you are sorely uninformed..What difference does it make if someone is a phone psychic an astrologer or a waiter? We all want our dreams to come true and will do what is necessary to make them happen..

The biggest issue with self-publishing is it kills a book for submitting. Most epress won’t even accept a book after it’s been self-published because once it’s out there, it’s tough to market.

Another issue is that everyone needs an editor. If you can’t afford an editor, they will not supply one…your book goes out as is. For an aspiring writer, having inferior product out there doesn’t help get contracts.

I don’t think Harlequin is trying to hurt or take advantage of authors, I think they just want to make a buck. It’s the author’s responsibility to research their options and make a learned decision. For some people, self-pubbing works.

In my experience, “customer service representative” and “phone psychic” were the same thing, if customer expectations were to be believed.

You want to know why people are truly upset by this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

It’s the same thing. Those who strive to make a profession living as a writer, not a hobby, not a seond job, but a living at it, are worried this will undercut the market and that publishers (not just Harlequin) will get so use to getting paid to produce books by authors willing to do anything to get their book out there that they’ll question why they have to pay their professional writers at all.

Of course I believe people will spend their last pennies on all sorts of things trying to make their dreams come true but what does that have to do with Harlequin offering a service?  FFS, these people are adults—they don’t need protection from themselves or Harlequin.  It’s ridiculous.

I spend as lot of time writing book reviews for self-published authors—but I still have to say this: most self-published books go unread.  They never find their readership. 

Harlequin-branded vanity publishing is like Coca-cola-branded antifreeze.  It may be lovely anti-freeze, but people are gunna get the wrong idea.

This is no huge loss to readers who will find other books by other authors.  But the author response is predictable and, I think, reasonable.

What if Coca-Cola started let people bottle their own soda and label it Coke Horizons?  What if 90% of those colas were horrible, as they inevitably would be?  What would it do to the Coke brand?

LOL Yes, THIS! Exactly!

And I’m still giggling. :)

I think self-pub serves a purpose. It’s great for cookbooks, craft books, and other non-fiction. It’s also a nice way for e-pubbed authors to offer bound collections of previously digital-only releases.

But for most self-published fiction (with a few wonderful exceptions), I tend to think “vanity” is the key word.

To the informed, discerning writer, I say go for it. If you know what you’re getting into, and you have the cash to back it up, jump on in.

But for those writers who *are* disillusioned and desperate to get their work out there, I think dangling the “maybe we’ll scout you” carrot and slapping a big name brand on it is kind of…well…cruel. Sure, it’ll get you published. But it still probably won’t get your books into the hands of the target audience you really wanted to reach in the first place. And it’ll come at a pretty significant price.

At Absolute Write, in a discussion about this issue, they’re pointing out that this isn’t self-publishing but actually vanity publishing.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162391

Just an FYI. Now I’m going to scroll back up to read all the comments.

This looks like a very slippery slope to me.

Self publishing is perfectly fine for people with certain types of books.  Grandma’s handwritten poems and recipes come to mind.  Or perhaps I’d like to format and publish a children’s book on butterfly gardening for my Mom’s classroom.  Maybe this is just a hobby, and I’d like to have a book I can hold and I know that going in…

That can be fine.

I’m concerned because the marketing for this certainly doesn’t seem to be geared toward people with those books.

The hook of the language on the site seems to be targeting “dreams.”

Dreams can be both powerful and dangerous.  That’s all I’m saying.

There is a HUGE difference between vanity press and self publishing and the two are not interchangeable. This is a vanity press, not self publishing. Here you have a system designed to prey – yes PREY – upon authors who do not know the system or have been rejected. The wording is designed to give false hope and the belief that for $$ you can bypass the conventional system.

Not to mention some of their costs are clearly meant to cheat an unsuspecting author. $200 to copyright your book? Someone can do that online for less than $40 and it takes no real technical savvy. This entire set up is meant to bring in cold hard money to Harlequin while allowing the authors some false sense of hope and accomplishment.

I find the set up horribly misleading and cruel.
Will Harlequin next pay for spots on the New York Times Bestseller list so their authors can say that too?

Um, Tabetha, I don’t see what “phone psychic” has to do with anything.  Believe me, loops all over the place are saying what Stacia has said.

Plus, she knew you were going to say that.

So did I.

Quick, before anyone hears - what’s the Powerball numbers going to be for tomorrow’s drawing!

:D

on topic - I do not see this going anywhere but into a bad, bad, place. I don’t know if HQN is desperate for money or what, but this can’t end well.

HQN isn’t desperate for money but their parent company Torstar probably is:
http://www.quillandquire.com/blog/index.php/2009/02/26/harlequin-rakes-in-cash-for-ailing-torstar/

You don’t have to be hard up for cash to be stupid or greedy, though.

Now… does anyone else find it hysterical that the top of this blog features a massive Harlequin banner?  LOL Cus I do.

I’m sure it was unplanned, but it’s still funny.

Being a self-published author myself, I’d like to point out a basic fact about self-publishing vs. vanity publishing. And please understand that by no means does what I’m about to say apply to traditional or digital publishers in any way.

If the ISBN connected to your work is furnished by or registered to a company that you do not own, you are vanity published. Even if you personally did all the editing, cover design, formatting, marketing, promotion, or all the countless other tasks involved, and even if you retained all rights to said work, if your ISBN can’t be traced directly back to you or your own publishing company, you are not the publisher of your work.

As for the current issue with Harlequin, I’m torn. On one hand, I think it’s great that romance authors whose stories haven’t found a home could be connected in some form to such a publishing powerhouse. But on the other hand, I worry a connection as such might breed into those authors a somewhat skewed sense of entitlement, where they feel as though they should just automatically be treated like any other HQ author who followed the traditional road to publishing, be it print or digital.

Honestly, the announcement today plus all the opinions I’ve read regarding it, forces me to straddle a fairly uncomfortable line. My first novel has sold over 1,500 copies and is still selling well. I’ve been reviewed by some of the same places traditionally published authors are and received great ratings, Coffee Time Romance (5), Romance Junkies (4.5), Bitten by Books (5), Mrs. Giggles (77). So, of course, there’s a part of me that feels like I deserve at least a little of the same “legitimate” recognition a traditionally published paranormal romance author gets. After all, I’m being judged by the same standards they are.

But, in the same breath, today…I can also understand why some of Harlequin’s authors might be a little pissed. Harlequin’s reputation has always been solid, and I’m sure most of their authors chose to build their careers with HQ because of that solid reputation. But now that HQ has essentially branched out into a “pay to play” venue, what does that mean for the authors who’ve been with HQ for years? How does that decision impact those author’s reputations, or because of HQ’s irrefutable place as the top publisher of romance, the entire romance genre as a whole?

We all know that in this business reputation means everything. From the quality of your work as the author, to the finesse of your agent then hopefully editor, even down to the publisher’s name stamped on the spine of your book…reputation says it all. And while not every reader knows what company published a book they loved, many know exactly who published one they didn’t. And I think that’s the real issue here. If Harlequin starts stamping their name on books they haven’t put through the same high quality vetting process as all the other books they publish, how will their readers respond when they pick up a book that isn’t what they’ve come to expect from Harlequin? Will they do any research to find out that the Horizon imprint is just a self-publishing branch of HQ, not to be confused with any of HQ’s other imprints, or will they just assume that HQ isn’t what it used to be?

Like I said, I’m torn. As one of those authors who couldn’t find my way to NY because my characters didn’t quite fit, and in turn worked hard to make my own place in the publishing world, I’m excited that this option has opened up. But as a romance author who understands what Harlequin’s reputation means to the romance industry as a whole…I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little nervous.

Wow!  This is big news.  I mean with the proliferation of self-publishing and in some cases, leading to a regular publishing contract, Harlequin is making a bold and probably savvy step. 
A friend of mine self-published a series of books that were very successful.  That success brought her to the attention of Sourcebooks who is now her publisher.  It seems that Harlequin means to jump on the bandwagon early on or at least engage in a low risk/high reward business model.  If the self-published authors already have a platform (my friend did) and write well (my friend really writes beautifully) but perhaps might get lost in the traditional publishing channels, then Harlequin skips the part where they come in late after the author/book has proven that they can drive sales and build an audience.
I think it’s genius. 
Would I want to do it myself?  No, not yet, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s a brilliant idea and an equally bold and strategic move.

I totally agree.  I think its a bold brilliant move that will pay off for them AND for new authors.  A win win situation in my opinion.

Interesting… I noticed Harlequin is discontinuing their manuscript critique service for “business reasons.”  Guess we know what those business reasons are now… they will charge more for it as part of this publishing package.

I said this at Dear Authors post but it’s still just some random food for thought with this discussion (Yes some of it has been pointed out here so ignore that it was not pointed out - just some two cents to add to the food for the thought) :

Another reason for the outrage that was not mentioned in the post is the fear of what this will turn the publishing world into in a broader horizon. Much like the popularity of Ebooks scared a lot of readers into thinking the local library would turn into stacks of computers rather than bookshelves, does this turn mean that publishing as an unknown or first time author will become a thing of the past unless you can afford to do so?

Another concern no one has hit yet is does this mean more rejections of even viable published works because they now stand to make more on rejecting you than publishing you? Does this mean you can write the next “better than” Meyers or Rowling only to find yourself in every slush and rejected pile out there because they want you to PAY for your chance? While at the same time your paying for your chance at fame and fortune, Barnes and Noble and bookstores across the country are LAUGHING over the phone when you ask them to stock your “chance”, readers are seeing your promotions and rolling eyes at yet, another, “self published” promotion – and you have sold 25 copies to your friends and family. It doesn’t matter what your potential once was now.

Stacia, you were a phone psychic!  That’s so cool.  Another aspect to your multi-talented specialness.

I just bought Personal Demons from the Sony store and can’t wait to read it.

(I’m not really here. Just want this conversation to come to my inbox to minimize refreshing and scrolling.)

FFS, these people are adults—they don’t need protection from themselves or Harlequin.  It’s ridiculous.

I agree that nobody needs “protection.” But nobody here has advocated for “protection.” Nobody here has said this venture should be illegal.

I think it should be legal to issue short-term loans at 300% interest rates. I think people should have the option, when desperate, to use those check-cashing quick-title-loan places. I also think that those check-cashing quick-title-loan places are scum, and I would advise everyone to stay far, far away from them unless there is literally no other way to get the money, and they absolutely have no other choice, and I support legislation that requires these people to state upfront the interest rate charged, and the charges that will be accrued over the life of the loan. That’s because information isn’t “protection” in the paternalistic sense of the word—it frees people to make valuable decisions.

Likewise, providing information—for instance, that most people who publish with vanity presses sell fewer than 100 copies of their work, notwithstanding major investments of time and money—is not “protecting” anyone. It’s stating facts so that people can walk into the relationship with their eyes open—or decide to walk away from it, if it doesn’t advance their dreams sufficiently.

Vanity publishing is legal and allowable, and nobody needs to be “protected” from it. For some tiny percentage of the population, even valuable. But like those check-cashing-title-loan places, it is for most people both predatory and scummy—and insisting that they should provide more information, rather than engaging in puffery, is not about “protecting” people from vanity publishing but allowing them to make rational decisions.

There is nothing paternalistic about the truth.

I belong to a couple of big writing lists which have everything from multi published, big name authors to beginners. You learn a lot on those lists.
On both the lists publishers and providers of services are either banned or asked to join as writers, if that’s what they do.
Often, we get brand new writers, excited at having finished their first manuscripts who ask “so how much does it cost to get published?” as if that’s the norm. So someone explains to them the differences between self published, vanity published and traditionally published.
How many other writers aren’t savvy enough to join writers’ lists or boards? How many will assume that you have to pay to be published, that a company like Harlequin wouldn’t be doing it if it wasn’t a road to success?
I’m most definitely with Stacia on this one.
“You too can be a Harlequin author. For a price.” That’ll make their authors happy. But hey, it’s all about the bottom line, isn’t it?

I don’t know a thing about corporate law, but as far Harlequin’s RWA publisher certification goes, this Horizons venture must be a separate entity from regular Harlequin. right? It must be its own thing… I’ll be curious to see how they make the books available, but I highly doubt they’d “market” them through the eHarlequin website. They’re smart bitches on a corporate level, and I have to imagine they’ve got their asses covered.

I don’t think the idea’s genius, but neither do I think it’ll be a total shit-storm. I think this will do for self-publishing what Cafe Press did for folks who want their design on a tee-shirt. Yeah, it looks streamlined, with lots of the complicated stuff taken care of on the other end, and good production value. That said, how many world-famous tee-shirt designers can you think of who were discovered through Cafe Press?

Then again, Cafe Press is a lot cheaper. Maybe I’ll publish my next book as a series of novelty coffee mugs…

Oh please, broader horizon?  Straw man alert.  I have read thousands of self-published books and support the model with my hard-earned cash by buying self-published books and ebooks.  But Authorhouse is the *last* place I would recommend for any author.  That would be more like throwing them off a cliff.  Createspace or Lulu, even Aventine or Booklocker, but not anything in the so-called Author Solutions stable.  Harlequin chose the option that makes them money and requires no input—not the best option for authors..

Doesn’t saying “Partnering with Author Solutions… is an innovative and original approach to discovering new authors to add to our traditional publishing programs.” equate to saying “You can buy a chance at a Harlequin contract through this venture.”?

No it’s not illegal, and yes authors should be smarter, but it doesn’t make me think nice things about Harlequin. It makes me think they’re being shady by feeding off authors’ hopes and dreams.

Now if they offered this service without the Harlequin name? I’d be fine with that.

Maybe I’ll publish my next book as a series of novelty coffee mugs…

Bwhahaha. 

The next-generation business model for publishing.

I just cannot WAIT to see how fast RWA will tie themselves in knots deciding which HQ imprints are acceptable and which are not.

Folks, if you want to publish something yourself, take a gander at Lulu. You’ll probably get a similar product a hell of a lot cheaper.

Of course, you won’t be able to call yourself a Harlequin author, but…

Wow, finding this online community of readers and authors is making my MONTH.  I want to thank Stacia K., the first Anonymous, New Anonymous, Ann Aguirre, P. N. Elrod, Paula Graves, JenTurner and others who have been so informative and truly caring about new authors and their dreams, and quality control and misrepresentation in the publishing industry.

I’ve always meant to finish the two half-written novels lounging under my bed, but apart from the sheer WORK of writing, getting published seemed to involve some sort of lottery-win-plus-blood-sacrifice. I think my writing has potential, but it’s not GENIUS, though it means so much to me. It is hard enough to consider sending it out to face certain rejection, without the added uncertainty of wondering if I might be taken advantage of, or somehow undervalue my creation. 

Reading well-written, logical, insightful comments at this site - with handy links no less - makes me think that I COULD find solid advice if I looked in the right places, and I want to pick up my pen and finish that novel in earnest!

Maybe I’ll publish my next book as a series of novelty coffee mugs…
Bwhahaha. 
The next-generation business model for publishing.

T-shirts (that you wear when you leave the house) would be better. Or perhaps car door / window clings. More exposure!

Ooooh, better—yard signs! You could run a whole campaign, sort of like Burma Shave, and entertain drivers on particularly boring stretches of road. On the last one have a cliffhanger and your web addy.

Hey look, I AM a published author!  I published right here!  I bet I could pay someone to go around the internet, posting links to my comment . . .

Here’s question: What incentive does this leave for Harlequin to pay its employees to dig through the slushpile—which, I believe, is where most first-time category romance authors are discovered? I understand very few sell through agents, as only a few agents rep category romance.

Why would Harlequin bother with a slushpile for category romance, when they can find the next star author among the ranks of those who have already paid for the privilege of “submitting” their books, and now couldn’t sell them anywhere else if they were dipped in platinum and printed in dark chocolate.

What’s the average advance for a first-time category author? About $3K? Let’s say a writer pays around $2K to be “published” by ASI with all its promo package bells and whistles and under the Harlequin name, and her book does well (by whatever standard Harlequin chooses to employ.)

Harlequin then plucks her out of obscurity and pays her the standard advance. So she’s got her first “traditional publishing” contract in hand—having paid $1K for it—and Harlequin has profited, both by being paid their cut of the author’s initial outlay and by getting to choose a “proven” winner.

The author, on the other hand, paid to submit to Harlequin’s own, private, profit-generating slushpile. And if they don’t like the terms, they likely won’t be able to sell the book anywhere else.

To support my theory, I’ll point out that Harlequin’s popular critique service will be closing as of December 1st.

Meh. Maybe I’m light years off. But if I’m not? Gotta hand it to ‘em. It’s a really clever plan. And by “clever,” yes, I do mean “evil.”

I belong to a writer’s group in which a few of the members have self-published. They are not dumb people. Most the people in the group, though, don’t really seem to grasp that there are, in fact, professional houses that pay you to publish your book. There is an awful lot of confusion out there, and deals like this only prey on it.

It’s okay to say that people should be more aware, but they aren’t, and this site is pretty obviously deceptive. I think it’s reasonable to be disgusted by it. Of course it shouldn’t be illegal, but that doesn’t make it right.

Before you laud this decision as the greatest thing since peanut butter spread on sliced humanity, ask yourself when was the last time you bought a vanity-published book?  Or a self-published book?  Did you walk past one in the store and think, “Hey, neat!”  Did you follow a random link and think, “Hey, neat!”  Did you see one in the return stack at the library and think, “Hey, neat!”

If not…how likely do you think that anyone else will, either?

True self-publishing is a viable venue for certain authors of certain subject matter, at certain points in their careers.  This site isn’t selling to those authors.  It’s selling to the ones who’d normally be receiving rejection letters (sometimes helpful, sometimes not) and spending their hard-earned money and time honing their craft rather than buying pixie dust.

I recently encountered a discussion I think at Dear Author where several midlisters, and folks writing multicultural romances, were dropped (by HQ) in mid-series due to low numbers.  I’m guessing these folks will very shortly receive excitable invitations to reverse the advance model and pony up for the “privilege” of paying Harlequin cash money to publish the completions of their series.

Savvy authors can do this on their own, without Harlequin’s fingers in their profits, and I hope they do.  This is a money grab, pure and simple.

And if enough people piss in a bottle and call it “Coke Horizons,” the rest of Coke will become synonymous with “piss,” too.

Linz - you don’t even have to pay the comment I posted at dear authors is already quoted in an article on this summarizing what is being said LOL

Here’s the thing: If your paying Harlequin more than the advance they would have paid you, to get their name on your book - new authors will have an even smaller chance of ever breaking into the industry the fair routes.  It’s a simple matter of money sense.  I can pay you 200.00 for your comment on this matter or you can pay me 400.00 to publish your comment on a site where everyone who’s anyone will read it.  I will always go with B and reject A if I want to make more money than I spend and stay in the red.  In addition, my readers will suffer because I no longer care if said comment was worthy of my distribution.

You know, I had seriously considered submitting to Carina Press.  I thought “Okay, it’s another viable epub, backed by Harlequin and when NY decides to open their eyes and take a gamble on my currently niche genre, I bet they might look at the authors in their own epub first to fill that demand.”  So yes, I considered submitting to Carina as a possible, maybe foot in the door to Harlequin.  Admitted.

However, if Harlequin is going to have a bunch of clueless newbs running around saying they’re HQN authors because they paid 1600 bucks for the privilege, yet HQN won’t give legitimately vetted and edited and quality-controlled epubbed books their brand name?  No thank you.  Crossing Carina and HQN in general off my lists.  Carina because I’m sick of being shat on by the big dogs and to be shat on while self-pubbed dreck gets branded by what’s supposed to be the pinnacle of this industry is beyond insulting.

What difference does it make if someone is a phone psychic an astrologer or a waiter?

—synde

Um, Tabetha, I don’t see what “phone psychic” has to do with anything.

—Chrissy

Phone psychic is synonymous with being taken advantage of and ripped off in my mind so I found it ironic considering all the—take advantage, this makes me ill, set more new writers up to lose money and have their dreams crushed, fall for the sales pitches of self-publishers, ended up hurt and broke, with their dreams destroyed, who lost years of their lives and thousands of dollars—BS I was reading. 
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=phone+psychic

Another concern no one has hit yet is does this mean more rejections of even viable published works because they now stand to make more on rejecting you than publishing you? Does this mean you can write the next “better than” Meyers or Rowling only to find yourself in every slush and rejected pile out there because they want you to PAY for your chance? While at the same time your paying for your chance at fame and fortune, Barnes and Noble and bookstores across the country are LAUGHING over the phone when you ask them to stock your “chance”, readers are seeing your promotions and rolling eyes at yet, another, “self published” promotion – and you have sold 25 copies to your friends and family. It doesn’t matter what your potential once was now.

And this is an *excellent* point. When it becomes more profitable for them to reject you than to accept you…

Nice ad hominem, Tabetha.

You do the term “forum troll” great justice.

Nice ad hominem, Tabetha.

Agreed.  So let me repeat:

“All this talk about an “empty bank account and a broken heart” just because HQ is offering a service for a fee seems pretty far fetched. I get that the authors who’ve posted here don’t like the direction HQ is taking the publishing world with this new venture but spare me the poor-stupid-author-scammed-by-harlequin outrage—I’m not buying it.”

I think everyone is adding on the “poor author” bit to pull at peoples heartstrings…not because they care. Just my opinion.

I should also put out here, considering some of the comments that came after mine, that to date - I have paid less than $500.00 out-of-pocket to publish my first novel. And that figure includes everything from the cost of registering my own ISBN’s and business name w/my state, to paying for promo materials and ads on various romance sites. To date, I have earned just over $6,000.00 in profit. Self-publishing worked for me because I easily made back every penny I’d spent, but that’s not the case for everyone. And, I didn’t take out ads or buy fancy chocolates as promo items until I’d already made the profit to pay for them.

Under no circumstances would I ever encourage a new author to spend literally THOUSANDS of dollars on publishing with any press, be it a vanity press or some other cleverly disguised self-publishing entity. You don’t have to. Period.

And I agree whole-heartedly with what others here have said, no matter which direction you go in publishing, there is absolutely no substitute for doing in-depth research. You have to take responsiblilty for arming yourself with best information available, you have to know what you’re getting yourself into, and more than anything, be able to read beyond all the promises of fame and fortune and really look at the numbers that will potentially make up your bottom line.
Because unless you’ve written the next “The Shack”, you’ll most likely never make back the thousands of dollars you pulled out of your bank account.

I know it sounds cheesy, but in this case, knowledge really is power.

It’s not making a publishing dream come true; it’s paying an expensive printer to put your book between two pieces of cardstock. Anyone with a bank account can do it. There’s no skill, no effort involved. It works just as well with a book that’s been through twenty rounds of revision as a book that was churned out with a robot generator on the Internet. It cheapens the Harlequin brand and the authors who put real effort into trying to get published, because most of those books are simply not ready for publication.

@Tabetha:

Phone psychic is synonymous with being taken advantage of and ripped off in my mind so I found it ironic considering all the—take advantage, this makes me ill, set more new writers up to lose money and have their dreams crushed, fall for the sales pitches of self-publishers, ended up hurt and broke, with their dreams destroyed, who lost years of their lives and thousands of dollars—BS I was reading.

I’m sorry you feel that way, Tabetha, and sorry you felt it necessary to insult my character in such a fashion because of a job I performed honestly and to the best of my ability almost fifteen years ago. (I stole a lipstick from a Kroger store when I was twelve, too; does that also mean I am unworthy to speak about publishing or have an opinion on this aspect of it?)

I read tarot cards professionally, over the phone and by email. I gave people honest readings, and honest advice. Many, many people who call those lines are in pain and just want someone to talk to or to tell them it will be okay, and for whatever reason they are not comfortable talking to people close to them or have no one close to them. I told them what the cards I laid out for them said, in as much detail as I could. I encouraged them to believe in themselves, and to work for their dreams. I encouraged them to leave abusive relationships and gave them numbers for shelters. I encouraged them to seek professional help. I reassured the woman who called twice a month to cry over the baby she’d lost to SIDS that it wasn’t her fault and urged her to speak to a professional, and cried myself every time I did so. I told them honestly that tarot cards are not infallible and that their choices were what made their lives.

If the fact that I once did that job, as honestly and as professionally as I could, infuriates and upsets you to the point where you feel I am not trustworthy and am simply spewing BS, and could not possibly believe what I’m saying or care about anyone but myself (since that is what you’re actually saying; that I’m a selfish hypocrite because at the age of 21 I read tarot cards for a few months and that makes me a liar who took advantage of people), perhaps you could listen to many of the other professional writers who’ve agreed with me, and made their own comments?

Or perhaps you could actually discuss/refute what I said on this topic. You seem to disagree with my comments, but haven’t yet really said why aside from your personal attack on me. You are of course welcome to think whatever you like of me, and to say whatever you like about me, but I think you’d do your position more good by expressing some logical thoughts or points, aside from simply saying, “Stacia Kane’s a big old hypocrite and is obviously not to be believed about anything at all because she was a phone psychic once.”

Just my opinion, of course.

So what you’re saying Stacia K is you offered a service to people who were willing to pay for it and they valued that service?  Were happy with it even? Why is that ok for you but not for Harlequin?

So what you’re saying Stacia K is you offered a service to people who were willing to pay for it and they valued that service?  Were happy with it even? Why is that ok for you but not for Harlequin

?

Because I wasn’t promising them I could make their dreams come true. I wasn’t misrepresenting myself. I wasn’t telling them that by paying the company I worked for $2.99/minute for a max 30 mins they could achieve all of their goals. I didn’t tell them spending 20 minutes on the phone with me made them professional writers, or would earn them money, or would make their boyfriends love them, or solve all their problems. I didn’t tell them that if they paid that money they would make successes of themselves or that it would get them noticed by People Who Mattered, or that they could, by making that phone call, be the Star at their Very Own Book Signing (caps for emphasis) and get credentials they hadn’t earned.

And I’m done discussing this with you. You obviously have no real points to make on this subject, and instead simply want to malign my character. Like I said, you’re welcome to do so, but I’m not responding to you any longer. If you want to talk about all the reasons why HQ’s new line is unethical and disturbing, and the implications it presents for writers and readers both, great. If not, I have nothing further to say to you, and I wish you the best of luck.

Because a phone psychic does not promise you “a chance” at becoming a Harlequin author by paying to have your book published with them.

Under no circumstances would I ever encourage a new author to spend literally THOUSANDS of dollars on publishing with any press, be it a vanity press or some other cleverly disguised self-publishing entity. You don’t have to. Period.

Exactly. I self-pubbed one novel because I had (foolishly) put huge chunks of it online, thus killing my first publication rights. OK, learned my lesson on that one.

It cost me exactly $99 to publish my book through Lulu. Now, I’m lucky because I’m a graphic designer now and have been a copy editor in the past, so I was able to take on production duties that a lot of other people have to farm out. I won’t tell anyone not to self-publish because that would make me a hypocrite, but if do your research you’ll find that it can be done economically, should you decide to go down that road.

I guess my hope is that this discussion will propagate across the internet, and that people who were considering going with Harlequin Horizons just because of the name will do more research so they can choose the option that works best for them.

Oops sorry Stacia that was such an easy one.

But they’re not promising that at all, Teddypig.  I’m sorry but I just don’t believe that any reasonable adult would read this section from their website and think that.  And frankly, if I was a new author trying to get/be published I would be insulted by this thread.  Just because people have hopes and dreams doesn’t mean they’re idiots.  And just because someone is willing to pay for something they can do themselves for less doesn’t mean they’re being victimized. 

Harlequin Horizons is a division of Harlequin Enterprises Limited, a global leader in romance and women’s fiction. The intent behind creating Harlequin Horizons is to give more aspiring romance writers and women’s fiction writers the opportunity to publish their books and achieve their dreams without going through the submission process with a traditional publishing house.

However, we understand you may aspire to be published with a traditional house – a noble aspiration. While there is no guarantee that if you publish with Harlequin Horizons you will picked up for traditional publishing, Harlequin will monitor sales of books published through Harlequin Horizons for possible pick-up by its traditional imprints.

Speaking of RWA, how is this venture different than RWA’s selling for the price of membership the dream of New York publishing, which so very few of its members will ever achieve?

Also, I’m completely confused by some of the differences articulated between fiction and non-fiction publishing. I do believe that there’s a perception held by some that fiction is more “special” than non-fiction but not sure if that’s what’s operating in some of the comments here and elsewhere.

Also, given the general disdain aimed at self-publishing, are there any circumstances under which self-publishing would be perceived as a legitimate, respectable avenue to publication?

Tabitha,
I believe it is this paragraph under their “Our Advantages” page that is offensive and misleading:

Dare to Dream: Potential Discovery Opportunities

Harlequin Horizons is a division of Harlequin Enterprises Limited, a global leader in romance and women’s fiction. The intent behind creating Harlequin Horizons is to give more aspiring romance writers and women’s fiction writers the opportunity to publish their books and achieve their dreams without going through the submission process with a traditional publishing house.

However, we understand you may aspire to be published with a traditional house – a noble aspiration. While there is no guarantee that if you publish with Harlequin Horizons you will picked up for traditional publishing, Harlequin will monitor sales of books published through Harlequin Horizons for possible pick-up by its traditional imprints. Review more benefits.

As an aspiring writer and long time romance reader, I am sad to see Harlequin lending their name to this endeavor. To lure aspiring writers who have not been fortunate enough to discover the wonderful online communities of writers who so generously share knowledge and wisdom of the craft and the industry, with the above language, is underhanded and sleazy at best.

Oh, sorry guess you had the right qoute. Must have misread, but my comments still stand.

I guess my hope is that this discussion will propagate across the internet, and that people who were considering going with Harlequin Horizons just because of the name will do more research so they can choose the option that works best for them.

JS - I’m with you all the way.

I’m not exactly the most compassionate being on the planet, and truth be told, I rarely care about what anyone else is doing unless it directly effects me or what I’m interested in. However, I do hope this discussion gets around just so no newbie author mistakes Harlequin’s name being attached to a vanity press for instant and credible success.

I expect that anyone who’s truly serious about publishing, in whatever format, would call on their own good common sense and take the time to research and learn what’s too good to be true and what’s not. And if they don’t do the proper research and end up whining about it later, I assure everyone reading this that you’d probably be able to collect the tears I’d shed over their self-imposed misfortune in an upended contact lens.

“And frankly, if I was a new author trying to get/be published I would be insulted by this thread.  Just because people have hopes and dreams doesn’t mean they’re idiots.  And just because someone is willing to pay for something they can do themselves for less doesn’t mean they’re being victimized. “

The problem is, not everyone is as brilliant as you are.

There’s a reason why author advocates like Writer Beware and the Absolute Write forum exists - to help writers avoid the sweet-talking scammers that are out there, using vague phrases and words to promise anything and take everything.

You might as well ask why any organization exists to help anyone, with that thread of logic…

I can only speak for myself, Robyn, but these are my thoughts:

Also, I’m completely confused by some of the differences articulated between fiction and non-fiction publishing. I do believe that there’s a perception held by some that fiction is more “special” than non-fiction but not sure if that’s what’s operating in some of the comments here and elsewhere.

The difference is, lots of non-fiction has a built-in audience. Say for example you’re a model train enthusiast, and have written a book on model trains. A major house may not want to take on that book, given the relatively small audience (no offense to model train fans), but if you self-published the book that audience, while perhaps too small for NY numbers, may be very interested in your book, because they’re specifically looking for books on that topic.

It’s got nothing to do with being “special” and everything to do with subject matter (and to a lesser extent, platform). A nonfic book on a niche topic with an enthusiastic group of followers/fans/enthusiasts/whatever has a shot, self-published or not. A novel doesn’t have that same built-in audience, and has tons more competition; those nonfic readers WANT to learn about that particular topic and seek out books on it, whereas fiction readers have thousands of other stories they could be reading—and those stories are on bookshelves, in stores and libraries, with the names of familiar and trusted publishers on the spines, for a better price.

Also, given the general disdain aimed at self-publishing, are there any circumstances under which self-publishing would be perceived as a legitimate, respectable avenue to publication?

See my answer above. Self-publishing isn’t illegitimate, it just generally isn’t a good choice for fiction.

@Selah March
> The author, on the other hand, paid to submit to
> Harlequin’s own, private, profit-generating slushpile.

When you look at it like that, it does have a certain evil genius to it.

(I’m honestly still boggling at anyone having the brass neck to charge $204 to register copyright.  $35 to register online, plus, say, $15 to post the deposit copies.  That’s $154 left over for Harlequin/ASI. They must pay their admins really well.)

Except I don’t think for one minute Harlequin is trying to scam anyone.  I think they’re a legitimate business offering a legitimate service.  I guess time will tell. 

There’s a reason why author advocates like Writer Beware and the Absolute Write forum exists - to help writers avoid the sweet-talking scammers that are out there, using vague phrases and words to promise anything and take everything.

I’ve received too many emails and letters at Preditors & Editors from distressed writers over the past 13 years to view this as anything other than a wrong move on Harlequin’s part. They are diluting their brand and when enough time has passed and the word gets around to their customers, they’ll have a difficult time remaining number one in romance.

As others have pointed out, the new imprint is clearly vanity and as many here may very well know, there’s no such thing as a little bit pregnant. Either you are or you aren’t and businesses can’t be only a little bit vanity. It affects the entire business. This is how P&E sees it and how we’re listing Harlequin now.

Also, given the general disdain aimed at self-publishing, are there any circumstances under which self-publishing would be perceived as a legitimate, respectable avenue to publication?

If you’re a professor and you want to produce your lecture notes in a nicer form, and charge for it, ie you have your captive audience
For niche markets like poetry and some short stories, where traditional publishing outlets are few.
For local history, where bookstores will actually accept books (at least they will where I live).
For family histories, genealogy studies, etc.

In all the above cases, self publishing is a good choice. But we’re not even talking about self publishing here - it’s vanity publishing.
When you’re discussing something like romance, where hundreds of books are released every month it’s not the best choice. Bookstores refuse to take them, and you have no synergy behind you.
The publisher promotes, you promote, and you are in a ‘stable’ with some really great authors. The stores have enough romances already - why should they bother with another one, especially one that has a lot more risk attached to it?

Speaking of RWA, how is this venture different than RWA’s selling for the price of membership the dream of New York publishing, which so very few of its members will ever achieve?

That’s in, it’s snowing in Hell. I totally agree with Robin.

>This is how P&E sees it and how we’re listing Harlequin now.

Excellent, Dave.  I hope you’ve emailed their execs with this information.

In all the above cases, self publishing is a good choice. But we’re not even talking about self publishing here - it’s vanity publishing.
When you’re discussing something like romance, where hundreds of books are released every month it’s not the best choice. Bookstores refuse to take them, and you have no synergy behind you.

I understand and respect your logic completely, Lynne. But in a world where many fantastic authors are published exclusively in digital format, I’m not sure being on the bookstore shelves is a viable “point” against self-publishing fiction anymore. I think in terms of impluse buying, you’re absolutely right. I’m sure many traditionally published authors get a boost in sales because someone sees a book in Wal-Mart and decides on a whim to buy it. However, I’m not sure that having your work on a bookstore shelf is the definition of a successful author any longer.

The more I think about this, the more I wonder why Harlequin didn’t just put all its ‘new endeavor’ energy behind their debut digital imprint, Carina Press, and back it HQ brand and all. As far as I know, upon acquisition, Carina buys ALL rights to the submitted work, including print, even though they openly state they’re a strictly digital publisher. So why not just print the bestselling e-books from Carina in mass market paperback form, where the cost per book for the customer would still be reasonable? THAT would be way more beneficial to up and coming new authors than backing a vanity press, and it would leave the integrity of Harlequin’s name intact.

Now I’m just all confused.

Speaking of RWA, how is this venture different than RWA’s selling for the price of membership the dream of New York publishing, which so very few of its members will ever achieve?

RWA says: “If you learn X, Y, and Z about craft, keep writing, get critiques, and perservere, then your writing will improve to the point where you can get published.”

Harlequin Horizons says: “If you pay us $X, and then convince lots and lots of people to buy your book at inflated prices, then you can get published.”

There’s a difference between teaching someone the steps to follow to help make the dream attainable, and implying that there is a magic bullet which can be purchased with money to attain your dream.

Harlequin Horizons says: “If you pay us $X, and then convince lots and lots of people to buy your book at inflated prices, then you can get published.”

Actually Anon, what they say is that if you pay them $599 or more, you will be a published author. (Read through their Book Publishing Process Overview page. The very last thing they say is “Congratulations! You are finally a published author.”)

If a bunch of people a bunch of books HQN *might* consider you for one of its “traditional publisher” lines. And pay you. Maybe.

Nothing new to add, but I’m in the camp with those who are thinking “OMG NOES”.  Not only does it dilute the brand, but it’s made me rethink my opinion of Harlequin and how it values its relationship with readers.

As someone pointed out above, not everyone who chooses to self-publish does so because their book sucks, or because they’re lazy, or because they were scammed.  So I have little reservation when it comes to the publisher/author relationship.  If an author has done her research, considered both the pros and cons, and chooses this option, then that’s her choice to make, and it’s none of my business.

Where my concerns come in is at the point of sale, when a reader picks up what they think might be good, and realizes too little too late it’s a poorly written Buffy fanfic with (almost all of the) names changed.  (This actually happened to me once.)  Not every book will be this way, that’s true, but self-publishing is not new, and I think most of us know by now that for every good self-published book, there are twenty other really bad ones.  I don’t see how this endeavor will be any different.

Sure, everyone here will be able to tell the difference.  But people like my friend Robin, who doesn’t follow publishing trends, will not.  She’ll see the Harlequin name and make an assumption, and that’s what bothers me.

I understand and respect your logic completely, Lynne. But in a world where many fantastic authors are published exclusively in digital format, I’m not sure being on the bookstore shelves is a viable “point” against self-publishing fiction anymore.

Because most self-published/vanity published books are print, and print doesn’t sell as well online as it does in the bookstores and supermarkets.
And the synergy still holds. I’m published by Ellora’s Cave, Samhain and Loose-Id next to authors like Deidre Knight and Joey W Hill. I get that benefit, something a self-pubbed author doesn’t have. It’s harder, it’s far more expensive and to make a success of self-publication requires a level of expertise and an investment I don’t have. And I have an MBA.

However, I’m not sure that having your work on a bookstore shelf is the definition of a successful author any longer.

Well, I’m doing fine, but I’d still hate to do without the support and expertise of the people I’m published with. And I know for sure that’s made a difference to my sales.

The more I think about this, the more I wonder why Harlequin didn’t just put all its ‘new endeavor’ energy behind their debut digital imprint, Carina Press, and back it HQ brand and all.

That puzzles me too. As you’ve said, people can be a success without the bricks and mortar stores, and they’ve recruited Angie James, who is well known and experienced. She’d be an asset to the Harlequin brand.

As far as I know, upon acquisition, Carina buys ALL rights to the submitted work, including print, even though they openly state they’re a strictly digital publisher.

Publishers will tend to ask for everything they can get in a contract. It’s up to the writer or her agent to negotiate.

So why not just print the bestselling e-books from Carina in mass market paperback form, where the cost per book for the customer would still be reasonable? THAT would be way more beneficial to up and coming new authors than backing a vanity press, and it would leave the integrity of Harlequin’s name intact.

I am so with you there.

Now I’m just all confused.

I have bought, both for my library and my own collection, any number of self-published works.

Most of these are non-fiction, for niche subjects, as discussed above.  Some of these even become quite popular, locally or even nationally, when the subject matter makes national news (e.g. a gruesome true crime book).

I have bought a very very small amount of self-published fiction for my library.  Mostly this is either because of local interest again (e.g., the ex- mayor’s novel) or because of truly overwhelming demand (I’m talking about pounding on the doors, dozens of requests from people I know personally, not mass e-mail “requests”)—THE SHACK being an example of the latter (and notice I say nothing about quality there).

I have bought some self-published fiction, generally that touches subjects that mainstream publishers won’t pick up (less and less of that these days) and always from authors who come with detailed, overwhelmingly positive reviews from authoritative sources, AND who offer generous online samples (at least a third of the book) so I know what I’m getting.

I have never bought vanity press offerings for either my library or myself.  This doesn’t stop the dozens and dozens of donations I receive every month from the authors who were convinced that this was the way to make their dreams come true.  I have never received one worthy of adding to the collection—even if there is a good story or writing in there, the editing and binding is so shoddy that I simply can’t add it.  Every one I consign to the discard pile lands with the sharp sound of shattering dreams.

I *am* angry at Harlequin, for cynically selling their brand prestige to add to that pile of broken hopes.  And, frankly, for making the likely flood of useless donations that I have to cope with that much deeper.

[verification word: beyond74.  That was WAY beyond my 74 cents worth!]

RWA says: “If you learn X, Y, and Z about craft, keep writing, get critiques, and perservere, then your writing will improve to the point where you can get published.”

Harlequin Horizons says: “If you pay us $X, and then convince lots and lots of people to buy your book at inflated prices, then you can get published.”

There’s a difference between teaching someone the steps to follow to help make the dream attainable, and implying that there is a magic bullet which can be purchased with money to attain your dream.

That’s not the case with RWA at all.

Membership fee
Contest fees
conference fees (food, clothes, airfare)
chapter fees

Conference fees alone can run you over 1k-WELL over 1k.

And, in all actuality, there’s not much you can learn from RWA that you can’t learn online. You may get face schmooze time, but how many authors made deals on that face time in comparison to all of the authors that went to the conference? What about the ones that would have if they could afford it? How many authors are members as opposed to being PRO or PAN? -Meaning how many authors are down in the trenches still plugging away, making thier way to one more conference in hopes that THIS ms will get in front of the right editor/agent?

And now RWA is exploring it’s own publishing company? Isn’t that what I read in a minutes note somehwere? I could be wrong, don’t take my one braincell for carved in marble.

RWA is a business, just like HH is. Only you get some semblance of gratification thinking you paid for the lessons you can now learn online for free. So, you write it off as ‘school’ in hopes that I get published.

I can see the argument that says HQN will dilute their brand with this venture having some legitimacy.  I think that whoever decided that Carina would be separate had the right idea and it’s not a new thing for large corporations to engage in business ventures that speak to different members of community.  GAP has Banana Republic and Old Navy for apparel as well as Lexus has Infiniti, and Volkswagen has Audi—their brands for automobiles. 

I’m still not condemining the venture and who knows?  Maybe HQN will amend the name to only HORIZONS which will then be a ‘tell’ that anything published with that plate is not from the traditional lines.

From a business model perspective, it’s a good move especially since HQN makes so much money for Torstar, their parent company.  An additional line should generate more jobs rather than taking them away. And with the precarious state of publishing in general, anything driving the bottom line so that traditional publishing can flourish is good. 

  But the branding issue does warrant closer scrutiny and perhaps a revisit.

I, for one, don’t regret a single cent I’ve tossed at RWA or its chapters. I’ve found it to be a tremendous resource for demystifying this extremely mysty business.

I joined early on in my writing *cough* career, and if I hadn’t I’d still be drowning in a sea of adverbs, isolated and confused, groping blindly for industry info and submitting manuscripts on grease-stained pizza boxes. I won’t pretend to understand all their politics or agendas, but I appreciate the information they’ve made available to aspiring writers more than I can express without getting sloppy-drunk on Bailey’s and composing a song about it.

And I don’t have time to write a song—I need to start promo for that serial coffee mug novel I mentioned. Better get to Cafe Press and order me up some personalized mousemats and organic cotton thongs, STAT.

Linz—keep writing!

Forget the coffee mugs, Cara.  For $19,999 Harlequin Horizons will make you a “live-action, customized Hollywood-produced book trailer video” and if their agent thinks it turned out good enough, they’ll even send it along to some Hollywood moguls they know.

Or maybe you can get your coffee mugs to do the hamster dance.  HH will also put your trailer on youtube for you.

http://www.harlequinhorizons.com/Servicestore/ServiceDetail.aspx?ServiceId=BS-6224

Listen, I know I’m probably going to get my hand slapped for this, but you don’t have to be a phone psychic to know that if Harlequin does come-a-callin’ to these vanity published authors, they’re not going to approach them as equals.  When they call and say, “We found your manuscript through the Horizons partnership and we’d like to offer you a contract,” the unspoken is going to be, “and we know that you were desperate to be published, so you’ll take anything we offer.”

I, for one, don’t regret a single cent I’ve tossed at RWA or its chapters. I’ve found it to be a tremendous resource for demystifying this extremely mysty business.

That’s great. I’m happy for you. I’ve learned all that for free at Romance Divas, PBW’s blog, Absolute Write, and the endless feeds of agent blogs I read.

Now, the PEOPLE of RWA, I do love my friends I’ve made though them, but I got all of that Romance Writer Skoolin for free-and most of it was better than RWAs.

A lot more RWA members get published than vanity press authors get traditional contracts. So that is one major way joining RWA is different from paying a vanity publisher. That being said, it remains to be seen how many Harlequin Horizons authors become traditionally published. Perhaps Harlequin Horizons will be different from every other vanity publisher in existence.

And perhaps not.

@ Laura Kinsale.

Oh dear. I can’t believe Harlequin is endorsing this. Wow. I am floored. That’s 40 % of what I earn in a year that would go up in smoke in 60 to 90 seconds. And I’m lucky, I have a good salary. No way.

Anyone laying bets on whether or not RWA will discuss this?

if their agent thinks it turned out good enough, they’ll even send it along to some Hollywood moguls they know.

After you pay the company 20k, THEIR AGENT decides if it’s good enough to be sent along?

Horizon smells.  Bad.

Good fucking gawd, I thought you were joking.

This is ridiculous. Who the hell can take these people seriously?

Forget the coffee mugs, Cara.  For $19,999 Harlequin Horizons will make you a “live-action, customized Hollywood-produced book trailer video” and if their agent thinks it turned out good enough, they’ll even send it along to some Hollywood moguls they know.

Or maybe you can get your coffee mugs to do the hamster dance.  HH will also put your trailer on youtube for you.

http://www.harlequinhorizons.com/Servicestore/ServiceDetail.aspx?ServiceId=BS-6224

As a Harelquin author this whole situation is extremely disappointing.

I worked for 12 years to get published by this company. I came through the slush pile, had several rejections, several rewrite requests and then more rejections. I studied the craft, I read how-to books and attended workshops and conferences and joined professional organisations and I polished and I improved and I never gave up until finally I was contracted.
I worked damned hard to become a Harlequin author and am very proud of this label. The idea that just anyone will now be able to “buy” this label is disheartening in the extreme.

I wonder if they’re going to invite all their “new” authors to their swanky author-only cocktail party they have at RWA National every year? That’ll soon add up!

I’ve been reading with interest.  Just a couple of comments.

And frankly, if I was a new author trying to get/be published I would be insulted by this thread.  Just because people have hopes and dreams doesn’t mean they’re idiots.  And just because someone is willing to pay for something they can do themselves for less doesn’t mean they’re being victimized. 

I am a new author, finishing up my first draft on a first novel (got about 10K words to go).  I will feel a huge sense of satisfaction in finishing it.  Even more when I edit it (agree with whomever said it was the job of a fiction writer to send in as tight a manuscript as posisble). I don’t see any value in a vanity publishing situation, which is what’s going on here with Harlequin Horizons.  Oh, and not at all insulted by this thread.  How could one be insulted by lively discussion and information sharing?

RE: RWA.  It’s a professional organization.  I’m not a member (yet), but I’m a member of a few professional organizations that relate to my “day” job.  Guess what?  Professional organizations charge dues. They hold conferences.  People join them to further their careers through networking and education.  Some folks better at doing that than others.  Not sure how RWA is any different that most professional organizations.  I don’t claim to know their politics, but I can see their value.

I, for one, don’t regret a single cent I’ve tossed at RWA or its chapters. I’ve found it to be a tremendous resource for demystifying this extremely mysty business.

Damn straight.

I wouldn’t have got my first contract without RWA (I finaled in the Golden Heart and that lead directly to my sale), nor would I have my fabulous new contract and house (which I’m now incredibly relieved isn’t with HQ), because it came about via the networking I’ve done under the RWA umbrella.

You know the “Everything I know about—- I learned in Kindergarten” stick? Well, everything I know about getting published (and staying published) I learned in RWA . . . and I have multiple published relatives who’ve now learned a thing or two from me!

Hmm, so I can write a book called The Tycoon’s Baby Bargain (which might have been used already, but we all know titles can’t be copyrighted), insist the designers give me a nice red cover (I’m paying for it, after all), and maybe even go so far as to give it a cover flag or subtitle such as “A Desire Novel”, I could have a real-life Desire book on my hands. Change the cover to yellow, retitle it A Son for the Rancher and add a cover flag claiming “A Super Story” and hey presto I’m a Superromance writer. After all, my book has Harlequin on the cover…
Yay! I’m published! And to think some people have the nerve to suggest that romance novels aren’t “real books”....

I thought it was a joke too.  Although, I have to say all the check-out-the-jackass-who-paid-20k-for-this buzz would probably be amazing, the price does seem steep!  Does anyone know what the going rate is for this sort of service?  Can you even buy it anywhere else? 

It’ll be interesting to see how this all shakes out. 

Good fucking gawd, I thought you were joking.
This is ridiculous. Who the hell can take these people seriously?

Forget the coffee mugs, Cara.  For $19,999 Harlequin Horizons will make you a “live-action, customized Hollywood-produced book trailer video” and if their agent thinks it turned out good enough, they’ll even send it along to some Hollywood moguls they know.

Or maybe you can get your coffee mugs to do the hamster dance.  HH will also put your trailer on youtube for you.

http://www.harlequinhorizons.com/Servicestore/ServiceDetail.aspx?ServiceId=BS-6224

Yah, and for 50k they can smuggle you across the border in the back of a semi, underneath a load of bananas, and get you a part in the next Lucas movie.  If their agent thinks you have talent, of course.  ;P

Sorry, I meant for $49,999.

This whole thing has to be a joke. There’s no way they can be serious. Who the hell would buy this shit??

I missed Christmas, didn’t I? It’s April 1, isn’t it?

Yeah, I keep thinking someone’s just hacked into their website and uploaded it as a cruel hoax.

A successful author making more than $20K from their books looking to get a movie deal?  I don’t know how that works at all but I can’t think Hollywood is looking for people to send them home videos!  lol

I still think this is a legitimate service that’s maybe going to be marketed to published authors with the media packages and not just the new author?  Seriously, I really can’t imagine a new author paying more than a thousand bucks or so on their “dream.”  Who knows but kudos to them for listing that 20K price tag—that’s pretty ballsy I think. lol I can’t wait to hear more.

I worked damned hard to become a Harlequin author and am very proud of this label. The idea that just anyone will now be able to “buy” this label is disheartening in the extreme.

Out of all the arguments, the pros and cons, this is the one that gets me the most. With all the PR I’ve read this seems to be the selling point—you can be a Harlequin author!

I’m so sick about this now *honestly, I wasn’t earlier, because I’m a cynic and businesses will be businesses. This time I really wish I could be proven wrong*

Anyway,I know it probably doesn’t touch how you feel. *hugs*

I reiterate what Alison has said - I too, am a Harlequin author and I spent 15 years working in cruddy jobs while writing, rewriting and researching to finally sell my book to Harlequin.  This is my job and I love being a Harlequin author.

Unfortunately, Horizons is about the money, pure and simple.  Businesses are there to make money and satisfy their shareholders.  I would’ve thought latching onto the growing epublishing wagon via Carina Press would have satisfied HQN, but this new venture seems to be aimed at reducing the slush piles and making mucho moola from it without a care as to quality OR their already existing authors.

Frankly, it spits in the face of all HQN authors who’ve struggled to achieve publication (and those who still are).  Harlequin is a huge well-known brand name and why on earth they’d want to mess with that, I do not know.  Maybe they were all on crack at the time?  So, now my neighbor can now plonk down the cash and claim to be a Harlequin author.  As if we’re not tainted by the ‘formula’ brush enough.

Robin said:

Speaking of RWA, how is this venture different than RWA’s selling for the price of membership the dream of New York publishing, which so very few of its members will ever achieve?

RWA is a trade industry organization.

Harlequin is a publisher.

Big difference.  I don’t even see where the comparison makes sense. 

All trade associations ‘build the dream’ as it were, the dream that members can ‘make it’ in their chosen profession.  But that doesn’t take the place of working hard, and smart, and having what the public wants, and also truckloads of good fortune.  Not many restaurants survive past their first year, but I don’t hear anyone complaining that restaurant-related trade organizations are building pipe dreams in their members.  And RWA sure doesn’t ‘sell’ the dream. 

security phrase: death33

Posted by Eva Gale: RWA is a business, just like HH is. Only you get some semblance of gratification thinking you paid for the lessons you can now learn online for free. So, you write it off as ‘school’ in hopes that I get published.

I just have to clarify that RWA is NOT a business in the sense that HH is.  It is a NON-PROFIT organization operated (through the voting process) by its members.  It is not in the business of making money for an individual or shareholders.  Harlequin is.

That said, I thought the RWA/Carina situation would be interesting.  The RWA/Harlequin Horizons thing should be popcorn worthy.

I’m both traditionally pubbed and epubbed and I simply don’t get why ANYONE would pay to have a book published.  If you’re that desperate to sell a few copies or just want to claim you’re a published author, load it up on Amazon and give it away for free on the Kindle.  At least that way the money isn’t coming out of your pocket and the free books stay in the top ten slots on Amazon for weeks.  And next time, load the book onto Amazon and charge a few dollars.  You’ll build a readership and make some loose change. 

No way in he** would I pay a red cent to have someone whip me off a few print copies that I’d then have to sell myself.

No way in he** would I pay a red cent to have someone whip me off a few print copies that I’d then have to sell myself.

I hear you.  I’m not pubbed (in fiction… got some academic articles floating around in a couple of journals), but I just don’t see the point.  And honestly, I had been writing my first draft with one of the HQ lines in mind.  I loved the Carina news, but this development makes me wonder if I should re-evaluate that strategy.  Not that they would give a rats a$$.

I have only one thing to say… and it’s the first title I see on the Horizon…

The Billionaire Sheikh’s Self-Published Virgin

I have only one thing to say… and it’s the first title I see on the Horizon…

The Billionaire Sheikh’s Self-Published Virgin

Sounds like your husband would have to be a billionaire to be properly published with Harlequin Horizons.

The Billionaire Sheikh’s Self-Published Virgin

What, she pays the hero $1,599 to pop her cherry *and* take her first publication rights?

Wow. Okay, as a romance author, I’ve made my thoughts on the whole Harlequin getting involved with a vanity publisher more than known in this thread…but after taking a long hard look at the Harlequin Horizons site, now I have to put my Rouge Author/Self-Published hat on and ask WTF?

You can get nearly every service offered by HH, save the insane Hollywood Book Trailer Video, on Lulu and CreateSpace for nearly 1/2 the cost. And for a little over $100, as long as you tackle all the design/editing/formatting yourself and already have ISBN’s, you can take your files over to Lightning Source and get POD distribution to Amazon (even international sites), B&N, BAM, Powell’s and a plethora of other bookstores.

The more I look at all the facts here, the more I’m beginning to agree that HH is blatantly targeting new writers who just don’t know any better…and what’s worse, it all comes down to the almighty dollar. I clearly remember what it felt like to be told by 3 NY agents that while they loved my voice and story, they just didn’t see how such a dark series would fit into the paranormal romance market unless I wrote out some of the horror elements. And I know this, with the way I felt during that month or two, I could have easily been lured to a place like HH. They make it sounds so easy. …Just send us your book and we’ll take it from there. …We’ll walk with you every step of the way.

Bullshit. If you’re seriously trying to get somewhere via self-publishing – nothing about the process is easy. And though I’m sure my self-pubbed brethren will get all up in arms and shout me down, nothing about the process SHOULD be easy. When you take the road less traveled or try to reinvent the wheel, there has to be some kind of penance, some kid of trial. It’s what makes the difference between selling 75 copies to friends and family, and selling ten times that many. And that struggle is also what makes the difference between deciding to do something on a whim because your feelings are hurt, and taking the time to do the research so you can make a sound business decision.

Self-publishing shouldn’t be the easy way out for someone who hasn’t taken the time to learn and hone their craft. It shouldn’t be the easy way out for someone who just doesn’t feel like walking the worn trails blazed by great authors before them. And more than anything, it shouldn’t be waved like a carrot on a stick by a once reputable publishing giant, for no reason other than to post record profits.

@ Eve Gale “How many authors are members as opposed to being PRO or PAN? -Meaning how many authors are down in the trenches still plugging away, making thier way to one more conference in hopes that THIS ms will get in front of the right editor/agent?”

Actually, if you complete a manuscript and send it out, then you are eligible for PRO status. Makes that first rejection a little easier if it delivers the proof that you’ve made the next big step, and that you take the quest for publication seriously. ANYONE who is a member of RWA and completes and submits a full MS can be PRO. And go to the extra retreats and workshops, and have access to the terrific loop and all the other perks available to those who have demonstrated that they are taking their writing career seriously.

You may want to consider membership in this excellent professional organization—and you’d be surprised at what you learn. I promise there’s a lot more to know beyond what’s free and available online.  :)

I personally found it interesting that this came so soon after Torstar, Harlequin’s parent company, reported their quarterly earnings. 

Results, again this quarter, are mixed as the decline in Newspapers and Digital more than offset continued growth at Harlequinand lower corporate costs

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Torstar-Corporation-Reports-iw-3498091233.html?x=0&.v=1

Anybody else hearing the sounds of a need to send up some cash into corporate HQ or is my Bachelors in Accounting making me unnecessarily cynical?

summer21 - yes, it’s been a while since I studied those texts but I still remember some of my professors’ lectures.

You may want to consider membership in this excellent professional organization—and you’d be surprised at what you learn. I promise there’s a lot more to know beyond what’s free and available online.  :)

Hi Althea, I am a member and I served a bit with my local chapter on the board. I say that knowing both sides of the fence.

And has anyone actually clicked the Become an Author button? I can’t copy/past it, but it’s actually pretty interesting. They have many more ideas for what they are doing other than, “I will pay to become a HQ author.” They ask if you are writing to support books or speaking engagements, a family memoir, writing about a hobby or personal passion, current publisher declined to pick up this new title, out of print books into distribution, writing to help overcome a personal obstacle.

And, I forgot, I am PRO. Not that it matters much to RWA.

Now, I have nothing to do with the publishing industry whatsoever, so I’m likely just talking out my arse…

Couldn’t this actually improve the chances of good writers actually getting published by reducing the slush piles?  If the truly delusional writers out there take matters into their own hands and wallets, is there a possibility that the load could be lightened for editors and—what are they called—first readers?  I’ve read more than once that digging through the slush piles is a tough and frustrating job and it all blurs together at times.

I’m also not quite seeing how self pub is any different than an aspiring artist paying to have thousands of their paintings printed, or an inventor having his product manufactured on spec.  I invite you all to go to a local art fair and count how many times you cringe at the self delusion.

I also have to nod to Tabetha on the topic of “ooh, look at all these poor saps who need to be protected from themselves.”
It doesn’t seem to be any more predatory than the weight loss industry, which I was involved in for a couple of years.  Does the weight loss industry get all your hopes and dreams stirred up?  Sure it does.  Do most people succeed at losing weight long term?  Nope.  In fact, the only people who lost weight and kept it off were the ones that went into it clear eyed and with realistic expectations.  Was I ripping off the ladies who hadn’t been below 200 pounds since age 10 yet wanted to look like Kate Moss?  Some people would say yes.  I say I had no right to deny entry to the program even if I knew they likely wouldn’t succeed.  I did have people surprise me enough to come to the realization that to gently pat someone on the hand and turn them away would have been the most patronizing, infantilizing thing in the world. 

Look, lots of people spend money on things that turn out to be a mistake or giant money pit or flat out disaster.  And these very same things turn out just ducky for others.  This is no different than almost any other financial decision on the planet.

Would this same discussion be happening on a board devoted to male oriented pop-fic?  Or would there be a massive shrugging of shoulders and a collective “buyer beware?”

Ok, the $20k book trailer makes me physically ill. PARANORMAL ACTIVITY was shot for less than that, peeps.
Seriously, if you want a decent trailer, I’ll do one for you for $20. No, it won’t be live action, and I won’t pitch to any Hollywood moguls (but neither will Harlequin Horizons unless they think it’s “good enough” and they control how “good enough” it is), but at least you’ll get your money’s worth.

Color me horrified.

I still think it’s a big, fat joke.
Any moment now, Ashton Kutcher will jump out and yell “Punk’d!”

Look, lots of people spend money on things that turn out to be a mistake or giant money pit or flat out disaster.  And these very same things turn out just ducky for others.  This is no different than almost any other financial decision on the planet.

Can’t speak for anyone else, but I think the problem here isn’t that it’s just a vanity press.  There are several out there and people loose their money and that’s that.  The problem is that it’s HQ. I’d like another example of another leading genre publisher that has branched out in the vanity press territiory.  I do think it devalues the HQ brand and the authors currently on it.

Would this same discussion be happening on a board devoted to male oriented pop-fic?  Or would there be a massive shrugging of shoulders and a collective “buyer beware?”

I’d like to think the discussion would be similiar.  Men aren’t as lazy as we sometime like to imagine.  :-)  Did you not see Dave’s comment above?

I also have to nod to Tabetha on the topic of “ooh, look at all these poor saps who need to be protected from themselves.”

NOBODY IS SAYING THAT.

All anyone is doing is providing information: Information like, Author’s House gets more complaints than any other self-publishing house out there, and these services cost more than any other self-publishing house out there, and most people sell fewer than 100 books through self-publishing.

I do not see how providing information so that someone else can make a decision is “protecting someone from themselves.”

Nobody has ever advocated that Harlequin Horizons be shut down by the DOJ. Nobody says Congress should make a law banning Harlequin Horizons. Nobody ever said Harlequin Horizons should come with a warning label that says “do not use while in shower.” We just all think it looks like a horribly bad deal for the authors: exceedingly low reward, and a cost that is far out of proportion to the service provided.

Information is not paternalistic. Information does not “protect people from themselves.” It helps people protect themselves from others. The suggestion that we NOT provide that information is, frankly, bizarre.

What’s making me sick is that this is a complete contradiction from what I’ve heard Harlequin authors and editors say in workshops and conferences for years. That legit publishers pay the author, not the other way around. We’ve been warned for years to stay away from these companies and now Harlequin is branching into it?

The way I see it, Tabetha et al, is that title pawn and subprime loans are legal, and only a desperate idiot would go that route without reading the fine print, but no one thinks highly of them or the people who dispense them.

This is a shady way to make a buck.

Have to go with Anonymous on this one again:

I also have to nod to Tabetha on the topic of “ooh, look at all these poor saps who need to be protected from themselves.”

No one has said that. Or rather, not one of those of us who are opposed to this little plan have said that; the only people I’ve seen implying that authors who go for this are stupid are the people who approve of it.

Tell me, Elysa, and I ask this in the spirit of genuine curiosity as well as to make a point. Do you know what a P&L statement is, and what it means to editors, writers, and publishers? Do you know who makes the decisions as to which books are bought and which aren’t? Do you know the difference between a warehouser and a distributor? What co-op is? How books get on store shelves? How about the difference between first serial rights and first publication rights, or how those rights are used?

I don’t ask these questions—which you may very well know the answers to, of course—to try and imply you’re stupid in any way if you don’t know the answers. I don’t believe that’s the case AT ALL. What I’m trying to do is prove that publishing is a very complicated business. It does not follow “regular” business models. It is hard to learn. It is counter-intuitive at times.

People who haven’t learned it aren’t stupid. They simply haven’t learned the business. We’re trying to help them learn it, because we’re concerned not only about writers but about readers.

Yes, people should have the right to do whatever they want with their own money (and in their own homes, says the legalize-all-drugs advocate). But they should have all the facts before they decide, and they shouldn’t be lied to or misled, and readers shouldn’t be led to believe they’re buying a professionally published Harlequin novel, with all that implies (or used to imply), and instead get something that hasn’t been edited for content or quality.

My old boss was an Emmy winner. He kept the statue on a shelf in his office, and one day he let me hold it and took a picture of me with it (I didn’t ask him to do it; he thought it would be funny for the company newsletter). So somewhere I have a picture of myself holding an Emmy (surprisingly heavy, BTW). That doesn’t make me an Emmy winner any more than shelling out a bunch of cash to Harlequin to print a book would make me a Harlequin author. The difference is, there aren’t hundreds of websites out there trying to convince me that by holding an Emmy I’ve somehow won one, whereas there are hundreds of websites out there trying to convince writers that ALL writers start out by self-publishing, and it takes some real digging in some cases to Find The Hidden Agenda.

Writers who don’t know how publishing works are NOT stupid. They are uninformed on the workings of a very specialized, sometimes very bizarre industry. Newbie writer aren’t expected to know these things automatically.

But Harlequin is. Which is why this is shameful and upsetting.

Anybody else hearing the sounds of a need to send up some cash into corporate HQ or is my Bachelors in Accounting making me unnecessarily cynical?

I drew exactly the same conclusion (should point out I worked in finance eleven years so maybe I’m cynical as well). Torstar is losing a lot of money and Harlequin seems to be the only thing making money for them. Last year they lost over $200million.

I’m also not quite seeing how self pub is any different than an aspiring artist paying to have thousands of their paintings printed

Yowza.  I’m trying to imagine an artist even wanting a thousand prints of their paintings to exist.  The more copies there are in a print run, the lower the value is of each copy.  When you get to the thousands in a print run, it’s no longer a print, it’s a poster.  No, no.  You want people to be buying your original paintings.  For lots of money, preferably.  And if they only want it because it goes with the furniture, you bite your tongue and take the money.

Ahem.

I had a whole thing written out about HQN + Author Solutions, but it got all scattered and unfocussed, and really needed more editing than I wanted to put into it, so it’s scrapped.  Rejected, even.  My take is, that $20 trailer thing puts it over the edge into smarmy, need-to-wash-my-hands territory.

So has anyone read Jane’s post over at Dear Author? She points out that Random House owns 49% of Xlibris, a self-pubbing outfit that apparently Author Solutions purchased earlier this year. And then there’s the Smashwords/B&N partnership, as well as others. i.e. this is not a new idea, although Harlequin’s foray seems to be the most direct and overt.

When you’re discussing something like romance, where hundreds of books are released every month it’s not the best choice.

Doesn’t it depend? I know a couple of talented, meticulous authors who self-publish, even though their abilities are absolutely suited to so-called professional publishing. That choice has been made deliberately by them, either because their subject matter/length/generic categorization challenges traditional publishing’s pigeonholing or because they want to retain total control over the process their work takes through publication. And if self-publishing were better respected, I think there would be many more talented authors who might pursue it, especially those who, for whatever reason, are not best served by a print or epublisher.

Beyond that, though, and beyond the question of vanity v. self-publication and the wisdom of *this* particular company as a partner for Harlequin, I can’t help but think of the post you recently wrote, Lynne, on the state of publishing, where you talked about how authors are feeling pressured to write faster, more, and to the market (whatever that is). It was not a glowing report on the industry, Lynne. Also, I read author complaints about publishers, about the lack of marketing and publicity support, about the killing of creativity through pressure, etc., and I wonder how much of the stringent defenses of trad publishing I see here are a function of the perception of prestige that continues to inhere to certain publishing avenues. And I wonder how long that prestige will remain intact, especially with the downturn in trad publishing, the rise of digital options, the democratizing effect of the Internet, the IMO diminishing quality of copyediting across all trad publishers, and what I think is a decided lack of publisher recognition/loyalty among readers.

Although I have no investment in this Harlequin scheme, and am not suggesting that authors get behind it, IMO it is absolutely in authors’ best interests to consider innovative approaches to publishing, especially in a down market. It seems to me that in an environment where so very many writers want to be published and believe that their work is worthy of publication that the only way to ensure some level of quality either to lower the number of books published—which would mean fewer authors getting published—or to increase publication opportunities and let the cream rise to the top.

Will some crap rise, too? Of course! But I think one of the reasons the outrage in this thread surprises me a little bit, is that accumulated author comments have left me with the impression that there are many, many *unhappy* authors, especially mid-list authors from trad publishers. Is self-publishing the way and the light? I don’t know. But I do know that as a reader, all I care about are good books, an interest that directly coincides with the interests of authors who want to write and sell appealing books. So, again, totally separate from the specific issue of Harlequin Horizons, the persistent author skepticism I see directed at new publication avenues (so many comments about Carina, too, that were very questioning and even pre-emptively negative) strikes me as extremely self-defeating, especially when I see, over and over again, a desire for authors to be able to exercise more control over their work and retain more of their creative and IP rights.

Also, someone above mentioned the patronage system of authorial support as this unsavory phenomenon, but how is traditional publishing so different? Beyond the fact that much of our great literature was produced through the support of patrons, but with authors complaining about how shaped their work is by corporate publishing conglomerates, I’m thinking a wealthy patron might be an improvement for some. 

And then there’s another historical transition in the history of book publishing to consider—that of the serial work. How many authors look with horror on the idea of writing a serial book? And yet mass producing works of fiction that way played an essential role in broadening both literacy and literary tastes, enabling many more authors to reach a broad readership.

Is it only the patronage sytem that bears a resemblance to the model of self-publication?

If patronage strikes as elitist and serialization as too common, what is today’s system of traditional publishing going to look like in another century? Who are the visionaries today and where is the innovation happening? Because I haven’t seen it happening within trad publishing, despite all the financial and human resources that have typically pooled there.

Wowza!  Facinating thread.  I don’t think I could write a book to save my soul, so I don’t have to worry about publishing.  Just as an aside,  I bought a Kindle this spring.  Last time I looked it had 450 some books on it but most of them I got for free.  Amazon has a system for people to publish their e-books and from the discussions there,  I know I’m not the only one that looks for a couple indies to buy a month.  Anyone looked into that?

I got a good laugh at the bit about buying the custom socks.  Betsy beat me with her offer & she does have any Etsy site.  I HAVE been known to swap books for knitted goods though.

If you want to self-publish (and you can do it totally cheaper than what HH is charging) check out Aaron Shepherd’s Aiming at Amazon, which talks about LSI and getting your book on Amazon and sales.

I’m a published author and a publisher. I also do a lot of mentoring work. Harlequin’s foray into vanity press status sickens me. I was taught early on that money flows TOWARD the author. That’s what I tell everyone. I learned that hard lesson when one of my first books was published through a small press. I paid a $99 for a setup fee, and when I got my book, I discovered that the bookstores couldn’t find and order it. It was a heartbreaking day, one that I’m sure HH will bring to many individuals who do not go into this with their eyes open. (much the same as the epublishing kerfluffles where people are told “beware of sharks” and alas, another one bites the dust…)

I have no doubt there will be those who will be happy with their experience at HH, and I’m happy for them. But I would much rather see those authors polish their craft and submit to the many fine small and electronic presses, who while they cannot promise riches and fame, can offer a chance to be a published author with a reputible organization. And this would include all those “category” novels that some commenter above felt that authors now wouldn’t be able to sell.

I got a “we haven’t seen you in a while” email from eharlequin.com yesterday. Well, I hate to tell them, I won’t be back either.

So has anyone read Jane’s post over at Dear Author? She points out that Random House owns 49% of Xlibris, a self-pubbing outfit that apparently Author Solutions purchased earlier this year. And then there’s the Smashwords/B&N partnership, as well as others. i.e. this is not a new idea, although Harlequin’s foray seems to be the most direct and overt.

Robin,

Random House may be an investor in Xlibris but they did not name it Random House Horizons or slap their badge on the books or announce to the world they might give you “a chance” at being a Random House author for using Xlibris. In fact if I remember they were pretty quiet about the whole thing.

I can’t help but think of the post you recently wrote, Lynne, on the state of publishing, where you talked about how authors are feeling pressured to write faster, more, and to the market (whatever that is). It was not a glowing report on the industry, Lynne.

The industry is hard, and frequently nasty. It’s hurting, like every other industry in the recession, especially the traditional print houses and the bookstores. As far as I see it, you accept it as it is and get on with it, or you don’t. Or you find another way. It’s as well to go in with your eyes open, and accept what is and what you can’t change, as well as what you’d like it to be.

While what you say could be right, and while self-publishing could be the way of the future, I don’t think it should do it like this. This isn’t self-publishing, it’s vanity publishing. I would have thought a better way to go would be the cooperative, where several writers band together to form an imprint and share the workload and their expertise.

My problems with Harlequin Horizons are twofold. First, that Harlequin is prostituting itself, selling a name that has before this stood for something entirely different, and so upsetting readers, writers and their current authors. I don’t tthink Harlequin will have had much choice in the matter, the orders will have come from above.

Second, that I haven’t yet seen on their site a full explanation of what it means to be vanity published, good and bad. It makes it sound nothing but good. It’s a selling pitch. I’d have a lot more respect for Harlequin if it set it all out somewhere.

I know the RWA is discussing this, and I’m interested to see their take on it. And the opinion of my organisation, the RNA (Romantic Novelists’ Association) since many of their authors are Mills and Boon authors. However, since the RNA doesn’t have approved publishers, this might not concern them so much, only the individual authors.

I know the RWA is discussing this, and I’m interested to see their take on it.

Approximately three years ago (I think), the RWA called EC, LI, and several other electronic presses, subsidy and vanity presses for the sheer reason that their primary sales venue was their own website. (Interestingly enough, this was not applied to Harlequin in spite of their subscription plans and online storefront). Considering that no apologies ever came forth and a “clarification” that should have been plain and simple (i.e. no monies paid to the publisher meant not subsidy nor vanity) took weeks to formulate and only created more divisions within the organization.

(and since I have it on authority that RWA has just labeled a small press “subsidy” because they have a clause in thier contract that’s also listed in several other “non-subsidy/non-vanity” publisher contracts)

I highly doubt RWA will do anything, but what is good for THEIR bottom line. They have a proven track record of being unable and unwilling to do the kind of education that they ought to.

Oh, I got one of those “We miss you!” e-mails from eHarlequin last week, too. I soon after got an “Oops, we goofed!” e-mail saying the earlier missive had been a mistake, and here’s a 25% coupon for your troubles.

Seriously, HQ marketing—I’m not a leotard. Just send me me the coupon. Don’t try and smoke-and-mirrors me, like those credit card offers with the “hand-written” address font. Or maybe the use of the word “goofed” was meant to make them seem personable. Or incompetent?

Sorry, that was way off topic. Marketing just gets my blood boiling sometimes. I better head to Cafe Press and order some personalized ACE-inhibitors.

Dear Sarah, 

I would like an option to subscribe without commenting.  That is all Fascinating discussion you have here.

I was just tweaking you.  ;)  I figured if it was a feature, you would have added it.

I’m going to post five little snippets from the Harlequin Horizons site in five posts. These to me, are the reasons I find the system predatory.

“Reach the stars and prove dreams do come true. Titles published through Harlequin Horizons will be monitored for possible pickup by Harlequin’s traditional imprints. This is great news for the author who has a dream of one day publishing with a traditional publishing house, but isn’t quite sure he/she is ready to go through the whole traditional submission process.”

That last bit just reeks.

Item two:

“Grow as an author. Knowing your book will finally be in print should be great inspiration for you to develop and hone your writing and editing skills. Our goal is to provide you with articles, blog posts and writing tips to help you become the writer you’ve always dreamed of being.”

Hey kiddies, you don’t have to already possess these skills to publish with us. Learn as you go. Come on in, the water is fine.

Item three:

“Compete in the marketplace. It’s no secret that the book industry is crowded and competitive. What can you do to set yourself apart? Start by checking out our innovative marketing services such as e-books, online video book trailers, author Web sites and social networking services.”

Nope, the book trailer item is not a hoax. Unless the hacker went in to adjust the actual pricing of the service. At this point I’m not willing to give Harlequin Horizons the benefit of the doubt. I could be wrong, though.

Just got an email from H/S—the Horizons line will NOT be branded with the Harlequin name.

So that’s good news….

Hi All!

This is Malle, from Harlequin, (I’m part of the digital team) and I’ve been reading your plethora of questions about the launch of Harlequin Horizons yesterday! I wanted to get an overall sense of the key issues before I jumped in. But I’m here now and happy to answer more questions if you have them!

First, why is Harlequin launching a self-publishing business? Bowker reported in 2008 that more titles were published through self-publishing than traditional publishers. Self-publishing is a fast growing and vibrant part of the publishing industry today. Harlequin has decided to provide a romance focused self-publishing business for those that choose to go down the self-publishing road.

The use of the Harlequin name with Harlequin Horizons has raised the most questions and comments.  At Harlequin, we are probably even more concerned about our brand than the commenters at this blog, so here, then, are some clarifications to your questions.

Brand – Harlequin put its name on the Harlequin Horizons site to clearly indicate this is a romance self-publishing site. The books published through Harlequin Horizons will not carry traditional Harlequin branding. The self-published author will be the brand and the Horizon double H logo will appear on the spine of the book. Harlequin is the gold standard in romance and that will not be compromised. Readers will not confuse Horizons books with traditional Harlequin books.

Distribution – Self-publishing has a different distribution model than traditional publishing. Horizons books will not be carried nor appear in traditional Harlequin distribution. The self-published book will not appear next to a traditionally published Harlequin title.

The Harlequin Horizons site very clearly indicates it is a self-publishing business and that those who choose to publish with Horizons will not receive the traditional Harlequin distribution and marketing support.

Many authors are choosing to self-publish. There are a number of reasons to select self-publishing including as a way to see their work in print— to give copies as gifts, to have a bound copy to help in finding an agent, or simply as a keepsake. Harlequin is providing a service to those choosing to self-publish with a leading organization in this field, Author Solutions.

To recap, self-publishing is an option for those who want to put their story into print. The Harlequin brand will not be on these titles. The Harlequin Horizons site is very transparent that it offers self-publishing services.

Last, if anyone is wondering if this changes anything with Harlequin’s usual editorial processes, the answer is no. We remain committed to reading and acquiring manuscripts from aspiring authors.  It’s new voices that set new directions for the future.

Item four: (whoops, I only have four snippets not five)

“Chapter 5: Print and Promote Your Book
Imagine the joy of seeing your book on your shelf or even the shelves of your local bookstore. Once you approve all aspects of your book design, you are well on your way to experiencing that joy. Before your book finally goes to the printer you will work with your publishing team to determine the price of your book, your royalties and other post-printing details. Once your book is published people all over the world can buy it through our online bookstore and you are free to start your marketing efforts. Congratulations! You are finally a published author.”

Vanity publisher or no? Notice that before your book goes to print they will work with you to determine your royalties.

Me oh my! Look, a hidden fee in the form of a royalty cut.  Who gets that cut?

I do not have a problem with self-publishing per se.

But I think one of the reasons this leaves a bad taste in my mouth is that Harlequin stated that they will be advertising the service to everyone that is rejected from Harlequin, on their standard form letter.

Random House doesn’t send rejected authors to Xlibris. And to the best of my knowledge, Thomas Nelson doesn’t do that with Westbow press, either.

Malle,

“All standard/form/template rejection letters [from Harlequin] will include a short note about Harlequin Horizons as a self-publishing option for the aspiring author.”

Can you please post the standard/form/template rejection note about Harlequin Horizons?

to have a bound copy to help in finding an agent,

This is a no-no in the agent search process. Agents do not want bound copies of vanity-printed (and your company is a vanity printer, not a self-publisher) books.

And sadly, once the book has been through this vanity printer, first publication rights are used up. So it’s a terrible situation all around: the book doesn’t count as a publishing credit by anyone reputable, but it counts as published when it comes to first publication rights. So it’s a lose-lose for the writer all around.

So these books won’t be branded Harlequin, just called Harlequin Horizons and branded with an H in the Harlequin font.  : /

Anonymous,
Sure! There will be a line about Harlequin Horizons as a self-publishing option on standard rejection letters with an option to opt-in via website. In other words, the aspiring author contacts Harlequin Horizons, not the other way around.

I slept on this news because at first I thought it was crazy and omg worthy, but now - I think they are actually just being proactive with their business model. They have now completed the trifecta of publishing if the HH & Carina goes well. Which, honestly is more than a lot of the old big pubs can say, right? They are embracing and moving with the times of epubs and self pubs by offering people all the different ways to get their book out there. If you feel passionately about getting that book out there Harlequin has made it possible, either through agents to pub acceptance, e-pub submissions & acceptance, or pay to play.
After some thought, I think Harlequin has just done their part by stepping into the next century in terms of that catch all phrase :shudder: “the future in publishing.”
Let’s see who else follows.

Quoted from Answers.com

“A slightly more sophisticated model of a vanity press is described by Umberto Eco in Foucault’s Pendulum. The company that provides initial setting for the novel operates a small yet respectable arts and humanities publishing house as a front. It does not make a profit but it brings a steady flow of substandard authors. They are politely rejected and then referred to another publishing firm in the same office – the vanity press that will print anything for money.”

In my eyes, this is just a new take on Umberto Eco’s theme. In this case we have a profitable publisher funneling rejected authors to the - vanity press.

Malle,

I know there’s going to be a line. Can you give me the exact language that will be used? It may not be finalized yet, and that’s fine if that’s the case—but I have to admit it gives me significant pause to see that.

Malle,

Is it possible to offer any insight as to why Carina seems to be so carefully set off from the rest of Harlequin while this program isn’t?  The message I get from that is that Harlequin is more willing to lend their name to unvetted self-published works than those selected and reviewed by a talented and respected editor.  It sort of makes epublishing seem like the dirty laundry again.

p.s. Malle, if you think this is anti-self-publishing hating you might want to watch the reaction to the news on a self-POD blog I co-run.  I expect it will be just as negative: http://podpeep.blogspot.com/2009/11/harlequin-horizons.html

Yeah, but that is also the problem.

It’s a free world, and people are free to make mistakes, but part of what makes this so unsavory to me personally, (And I’ll state right now, I have NO dog in this fight) is that everything I read on the website makes it sound as if what you’ll get as a result of this process is a “Harlequin Novel.”

Now when I think Harlequin Novel, I think certain things.  A completely professionally edited book with fantastic distribution comes to the top of the list. 

That’s not what you get here.  It doesn’t even seem to be close.

And so the website reminds me a lot of “Bait and Switch” tactics.  “Publish this way and you’ll be a harlequin author!!!!”

Uh, no, you won’t. Especially if the Horizon’s line isn’t branded Harlequin.

There’s a lot of disillusionment that comes along with actually signing your first contract.  This takes that to a whole new level.

I’m impressed with this conversation.  People have been mostly civil.

Malle,

Even if the books don’t carry the “brand,” they will still have the Harlequin name attached. Worse, the HH logo, when you look quickly at it, could be mistaken for Harlequin Historicals, a line I happen to enjoy reading.

If the books merely carried an imprint called Horizon, that’s something else.

I noticed that Random House’s Xlibris division doesn’t call themselves Random House Xlibris, nor do they suggest to writers to try Xlibris in their rejection letters.

It’s a cash cow for HQ.
It’s not illegal. Shouldn’t be illegal.
It’s still bottom-feeding.
Glad I don’t have HQ on my resume for any of my aliases—
and this from the granddaughter of a she-pimp.
(The kettle IS covered in soot.)

Malle, thanks for joining the discussion.

I have a question, if you wouldn’t mind addressing it. If this is truly a self-publishing option for authors, why do they then recieve only a portion of the cover price? Why is some royalty split involved?

Normally, once all the work is done, the author then works with the printer on a sliding fee scale based on the number of copies he/she wants printed. That doesn’t seem to be the case here.

Just to answer the questions raised…

Started out my post saying I know nothing about the publishing industry.  So, Stacia, I found the whole do you know “blah” or “blah’ a smidge condescending.  One reason I’ve never even put my back into writing a novel is because I am unfamiliar with the landscape of publishing.  What I do observe as a reader is that many books are apparently not published because they are good, but because of some other factor.  Are we really seeing the best submissions? Is ‘My Sister’s Keeper” really the cream of the crop?  Just a question. 

Having lots and lots of prints out there increases the value of the original painting rather than devalues it. It’s a marketing tool.  See Maxfield Parrish, Andrew Wyeth and (gulp)  Thomas Kinkaid.  Is an original handwritten or handtyped manuscript worth less because a million copies of the book were sold?  Is an original Hepplewhite whatever worth less because knock offs were made?

Nope, I didn’t see Dave’s remark.  I do notice, upon reading, that he is speaking about this being a bad business move on the part of Harlequin more than anything else. 

Next point.  I do see the words ‘predatory’ and ‘scam’ being bandied about.  Which paints the potential users of the business as victims, right?  So, yes, quite a few of you are saying ‘oh, look at these people who need to be protected from themselves.”

Anon2 just posted an update saying none of these books will be imprinted with the Harlequin name, so that’s another straw man burnt to the ground.

Here’s my bottom line.  I see the traditional publishers as being akin to the gallery system in the art world.  And self pub as having your work printed and hitting the art fairs, boutique galleries and etsy (and, yes, I know it’s more complicated than that, but *many* authors, including Julia Cameron and Barbara Brabec started out as self pub.)  I see both books and art of any sort as a product.  And most products put out into the world fail.  Miserably.  Sometimes on merit or lack thereof, sometimes on lack of marketing skills, or both. 

I guess I just see self pub as an intriguing option, not one to be dismissed wholesale as a scam.

If nothing else you can commission your own artwork and title your work yourself.

My understanding is HH will own the isbn on the epubbed book, paying out royalties to the author, which if terminology serves, makes HH a vanity press, not just an self-publisihng company. To me there is a difference. If you self-pub you get to keep all the money you make off of sales. Vanity pubs get to make money with no risk. The author is paying for everything.

Harlequin rejection letters will have a note about HH, which to me says, “We don’t think this is good enough for us, but if you like, you can pay a crapload of money to try and prove us wrong, and maybe we’ll take you on later.” Oh, and by the way, even if we don’t, we’ll still make money off of your sales, so neener-neener. This is really the message you want to send? Vanity presses have such a horrid rep in the industry. You really want to be saying this?

Regardless of how this is wrapped up, I have a very hard time not thinking of this as money-grubbing by Harlequin or it’s parent company if they’re the ones responsible for this. It smacks horribly of taking advantage of writers who have been trying to publish traditionally with Harlequin for years. It doesn’t matter if this isn’t the intent, it’s the perception if gives off and that’s what will count.

The costs. $600 for…? Formatting and a generic cover? Perhaps I’m missing something, but what is the author getting for that kind of money? And it goes up from there, all the way to 20k for a trailer. Seriously? 20k? Indie movies are made for less. This is in the realm of prank amounts of money. Let’s put a completely absurd amount of money on this and see if anyone is truly rich and desperate enough to get suckered into it. I’m sorry, but it’s not really a good thing when folks are laughing at you.

Also, no PR leading up to this, no discussion, no nothing. Just…surprise! Guess what we’re doing now. I’m no business major but usually communication about new, likely controversial things goes a long way toward transitioning in new ideas. Is Harlequin just planning on the flood of wtf’s they had to know would be coming to just blow over?

This whole thing is more than a bit perplexing and disheartening. Malle, I know this isn’t your brainchild, and likely got stuck with being spokesperson to deal with all of the inital flak (not a job you could pay me enough for), but this whole thing comes off as back-handed and just plain bad. If I were a Harlequin writer or aspiring to be one, I’d feel like I just got slapped in the face.

Dittoing everyone else in thanking you for commenting here, Malle. Unfortunately, I find some of your comments rather disturbing.

Brand – Harlequin put its name on the Harlequin Horizons site to clearly indicate this is a romance self-publishing site. The books published through Harlequin Horizons will not carry traditional Harlequin branding.

So, let me get this straight. You use language to sell this service which implies the author in question will be a Harlequin author, and that Harlequin will have a hand in their books, but what they’ll get will not in fact have any association with Harlequin?

The self-published author will be the brand and the Horizon double H logo will appear on the spine of the book. Harlequin is the gold standard in romance and that will not be compromised. Readers will not confuse Horizons books with traditional Harlequin books.

So, if that’s the case, why in the world should they pay you a huge amount of money, when they can do the same thing through Lulu for free? And don’t you think that it’s a bit of a contradiction to say the books won’t be confused with regular Harlequin books, when they’ll have that logo on the spine?

Distribution – Self-publishing has a different distribution model than traditional publishing.

Yes, it does, and make no mistake, writers who are considering this—that “distribution model” is you desperately trying to convince unwilling local bookstores to carry your books (they probably won’t), or trying to sell them out of your garage, or carrying copies with you everywhere in vain hopes of interesting strangers in them, or spending outrageous amounts of money on promotions which will very probably not work. You’re competing with professionally published books which are easily available everywhere, from authors and houses readers trust.

Horizons books will not be carried nor appear in traditional Harlequin distribution. The self-published book will not appear next to a traditionally published Harlequin title.

So again, why should they choose to vanity-publish with you? You’re not offering them distribution beyond what any other vanity press offers them, and some of them—Lulu again, frex—offers it free.

The Harlequin Horizons site very clearly indicates it is a self-publishing business and that those who choose to publish with Horizons will not receive the traditional Harlequin distribution and marketing support.

No, what it says is:

Authors who publish with Harlequin Horizons will have their books available for purchase from the Harlequin Horizons online bookstore and available at more than 25,000 retailers worldwide, including Amazon.com and BarnesandNoble.com. While the scope of distribution is not nearly as extensive as the parent company’s breadth and reach, Harlequin Horizons provides authors the opportunity to reach readers on a global scale through the Ingram Book Group.

and:

Our books are available to the author, retailers and customers on demand, so there is no need for the author to store unnecessary copies or pay a warehousing fee.

Two statements which are, IMO, highly, highly misleading. The average person, aspiring writer or not, has no idea what a distributor is, or why it’s important. They have no idea that saying a book is “available at 25,000 bookstores…” doesn’t mean the book will be IN bookstores, just that should a customer learn of the book, and should they decide they want to read it, they may go into a bookstore, order it at the help desk (most likely pre-paying for it), and wait three weeks or so for it.

They also probably don’t know that saying the books are “avalable…on demand” means the books are print-on-demand, which means they’ll likely cost twice what a mass-market paperback will, and that bookstores do not generally carry POD books as a matter of policy.

I’m going to return to this in a moment, but first I have to ditto DeadlyAccurate:

Many authors are choosing to self-publish. There are a number of reasons to select self-publishing including as a way to see their work in print— to give copies as gifts, to have a bound copy to help in finding an agent...”

Writers, DO NOT DO THIS. This is grievous misinformation. Do NOT bind copies to send to agents; they will throw them away and consider you an amateur. Follow proper submission guidelines.

That’s almost as bad as this piece of misinformation:

Our contract is non-exclusive and allows the author to keep the rights to their book so that our authors can publish with a traditional publisher in the event that they are signed.

Authors keep the rights to their books anyway; they belong to us, and we lease or grant them to publishers in exchange for money. But by publishing the book through Harlequin’s vanity press, an author HAS used their First Publication rights. These rights are generally all publishers are interested in, so doing this can seriously affect the salability of your book.

Oh, and using those rights also means that should lightning strike, and Harlequin decides to make a regular offer for your book, they have you over a barrel. You can’t go anywhere else, because you’ve used the most valuable rights already, and Harlequin can make you a lousy offer you’ll basically have to accept. What have they got to lose? They’re already making money off you.

@Elysa:

Started out my post saying I know nothing about the publishing industry.  So, Stacia, I found the whole do you know “blah” or “blah’ a smidge condescending.

Elysa, I’m very sorry you felt that way, since I specifically stated that wasn’t my intention and that I was merely trying to illustrate how complex publishing is as a business.

Two thoughts/answers—and in many ways what writers seem to be questioning is why is Harlequin transparent? 

1) Why does Carina Press seem to be so separate from Harlequin? Because the business model is different and we want authors to be aware of this fact. The range of editorial we will be offering will be very different than what readers who select Harlequin expect/want. Therefore we need a different brand.

2) Again, self-publishing is a choice. We’re proud to offer this option to those who choose to self-publish, and for aspiring romance authors, an association with the Harlequin brand makes sense.

The brand, however, is only author-facing; Harlequin will not be branded on the books or in any of the metadata or sales information accompanying the book.

We hope to discover new authors through this service and welcome them into the Harlequin brand family proper but we do not promise this.

Again, this is no way changes what/how we publish at Harlequin. We want to build and grow authors in series. We, like the authors, dream of owning all the spots on the NYT bestseller list. We continue to look for new talent at conferences, via contest and via the infamous slush pile.

Authors get paid crap as it is. Very few can live off of what they make. And now hq is starting a trend in which authors will have to pay for getting published?

What happened to working hard to get something? I sludged away for 6 years to get published, and now you’re telling me that for a small fee, I could have just paid someone?

What saddens me is to think about all these wannabe writers who don’t really understand the ins and outs, saving and scraping money together to get their book published, thinking they’re going to get their big break. 

Romance novels have a crappy reputation as it is, and by letting anyone get published, whether they should be or not, we’re going to bring that reputation down even further.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand that there are great writers who for some reason can’t get published and this could be an opportunity for them. Hopefully those few authors get their money’s worth.

I just think that this is going to be bad for the majority of authors, who, as I mentioned, already get paid low.  Hq is a business, lets not pretend they’re doing this for the writer. They’re doing it for money, and thats fine, but let’s not pretend that its otherwise.

You can see their standard cover templates here.

http://www.harlequinhorizons.com/uploadedFiles/Harlequin_Horizons/HH_Files/HH_CoverTemplate.pdf

Tell me that the average reader seeing these with the label “Harlequin Horizons” isn’t going to assume this is just another Harlequin line.  Malle has all but admitted that they’re counting on the vanity books having no distribution to keep them from diluting their line.  But they’re also offering to spam ten million “opt-in addresses” with your ad for a mere 11,995.  (That’s four dollars less than I expected!)

http://www.harlequinhorizons.com/Servicestore/ServiceDetail.aspx?ServiceId=BS-6193

Where is Authorhouse going to find ten million people who have opted in to reading romance book news e-mails?  How many of those ten million will think it’s obvious that Harlequin Horizons isn’t the same as Harlequin Blaze/Ginger Blossom/Next?  What are these readers going to think when the book Harlequin e-mailed them about turns out to be substandard?

The reason for this venture has been clearly outlined as being profitable (which we already guessed by looking at the price tags) - and it’s been said that new submissions will go through the process of possibly being accepted but with a new tagline about Horizons on the rejections.  Obviously the reader of said email will “opt in” but isn’t that just a fancy way of saying, they will get a link to another option to publication that looks fancy and cool and encourages them to pay out on the first print rights?  That is where my unease is coming into play with this and was yesterday if you see what I posted there.
I may not have a million print copies of any published work yet, however, I did take marketing in high school and college and I know what money is to a business…it’s why this is being started.  So again, what are the chances of being picked up from a submission now versus I will pay you to print the publication….common business sense is saying that this will mean less new authors picked up traditionally if at least a small percentage of the rejections will go to Horizons and spend money.
There was a publisher that still floats around with a horrible reputation amongst the writing community, I made a mistake of having a book with them my first time around and though, I don’t like what they have done with it or the fact it’s expired and still sold through them, I at least wasn’t charged out of my pocketbook for the opportunity of the publication and it sold some copies - royalties were extremely low and it has a nasty reputation with the publishing industry but I would send 10 people there before I sent one to Horizons to lose money seeing print.  If a company that charges folks nothing to give the book light of day can get Scam written all over it’s name - look out for this endeavor because when you charge folks 600- 19,000 for something that reeks of the same kind of treatment - Scam is probably the nicest word folks will have for this in a few months.  Especially since rejections will have a nice “opt in” tag line.

Haven’t read all the posts but it occurs to me that Harlequin has for decades sold the fantasy of the HEA, and now they are selling another fantasy.

Malle,

If I received a rejection from Harlequin and found a line referring me to a self-publishing racket, my already bruised feelings would be magnified indescribably. That is a terrible, terrible thing to say to someone who’s been rejected, even if the book is atrocious. Especially if someone has gone out of her way to write a book tailored to a Harlequin line and is well enough versed in publishing to know that she wants to work for a reputable company.

You might as well just tell the writer to line a litter box with her manuscript.

I know that you work for digital and this HH is not your baby, but I really hope that someone in charge changes their mind about that recommendation.

I’m a self-publishing author and even I have an issue with this.

The reason I have an issue with it is that while I believe that a good book is a good book and it should stand on it’s own regardless of who published it or how it got to market, these are books that will SAY harlequin on them.

Now why is this a problem?

It’s a problem because while these books may not be on regular bookstore shelves, and there may even be a big effort to educate people on what exactly harlequin horizons is… most readers who find such books on Amazon.com are just going to see the word harlequin.  They aren’t going to process any of the rest of it.

They will believe they’ve gotten a book vetted through traditional channels. This will hurt Harlequin’s credibility in the long run.

Hey, wait, what am I saying?  More ammo that lets readers complain about traditionally published books and be more open-minded about ANY good book and not how it’s published?

Hey go for it. Your loss, my gain.

I echo all the comments above about being able to get the same services offered by HH for much cheaper via Lulu or CreateSpace. Why spend $600 for something that we’ve learned this morning won’t even carry the Harlequin seal of approval, when you can spend $25 somewhere else. But here’s what I don’t understand:

If it’s the opportunity to find viable talent that Harelquin is looking for, and a piece of the lucrative self-publishing pie, so to speak, why not become a step between true self-publishing and traditional publishing, instead of backing a vanity press? Why not create a venue where already self-published romance authors with a verifiable sales history of 500/1000/2000/5000 copies sold, all well above the accepted average, can have their work considered for mass market printing or use a brand like HH as an avenue to larger digital distributors? As is stands, if you’re a self-published author who’s created a small press, unless you have at least 10 titles ready for upload, you can’t even get your foot in the door at Fictionwise or All Romance. And the costs associated with a self-published author attempting to do a mass market printing…well, if it were that easy most of us would have already done so.

It seems to me if Harlequin’s main objective here is to find the as of yet undiscovered talent that NY might have missed, there are better ways to go about it than partnering with a vanity press that charges such outrageous fees. At least if HQ created a venue where they looked at already self-pubbed romance authors with a proven sales history of no less than 500 copies, they’d know the quality of work they’re getting is most likely better than many of the other self-published titles out there.

From information sent out today by HQ.

Talking out of both sides of the mouth?

First, we have this:
 Readers will not be confused. Harlequin is the gold standard for romance. Readers purchase Harlequin because they trust Harlequin to provide a great story. There will be no ‘dilution’ of quality. Horizons is a separate imprint with no Harlequin branding.

Then they go on to say:

WWhy is this branded Harlequin?
 We’re proud to offer this option to those who choose to self-publish, and for aspiring romance authors, an association with the Harlequin brand makes sense.
 The brand, however, is only author-facing; Harlequin will not be branded on the books or in any of the metadata or sales information accompanying the book.

Soooooo…which is it?  It’s only “kinda sorta” branded Harlequin.  But not really?  When it’s called HARLEQUIN Horizons?  When eHarlequin is running the information, including banner ads?  When rejections come with an invitation to submit your rejected work to Harlequin Horizons?

Malle, I adore you.  But just because the writer has to go ahead and Opt-In to this program doesn’t seperate it, not when the rejection letter provides the writer with this information.  If the rejection letter DIDN’T mention the program, and the writer choose it, that would lessen the connection, the smarminess of it.

Let’s look at it another way.  An ugly guy approaches a gorgeous woman in a bar.  She rejects him.  But then says, but hey, you know what, if you PAY ME, I will sleep with you.  You can realize your dream of sleeping with an amazing woman like me for the low, low price of just $599.00.

What does that make the woman?

Harlequin rejects a writer.  Sorry, you’re not good enough.  But…hey…if you go over to this website, and PAY us, then you can realize your dream of being a published author.

‘Nuff said.

For $599.00 I can go on a pretty nice 5 day cruise to the Bahamas and will get my money’s worth. Will the same apply for me spending $599.00 with this new venture Harlequin is involved with?

The brand, however, is only author-facing; Harlequin will not be branded on the books or in any of the metadata or sales information accompanying the book.

Malle, where on the Harlequin Horizons website does this disclose this? Because up until Harlequin made that announcement, I had assumed the words “Harlequin Horizons” would appear on the book. That it will not suggests to me that what is going on on the Harlequin Horizons website is misleading at best.

I have no problem with self-publishing when it is accompanied by full disclosure, but I can’t find a single place on your website where you tell potential authors that their book will not be published with the Harlequin name on it. Instead, the website actually touts the benefits of the Harlequin name.

If the brand is only author-facing, potential authors really need to be informed of that up front.

I just read Harlequin’s response on Dear Author about how none of the self-pubbed books with have “Harlequin” on them, but will have “HH” instead so there’s a clear distinction between their traditionally-pubbed brand and their self-pubbed books. Not getting into that because others have been pretty eloquent about it.  This part of their statement, however, made my jaw drop. Quoting Malle Vallik from Harlequin, on writers and self-publishing:
“There are a number of reasons to select self-publishing including as a way to see their work in print – to give copies as gifts, to have a bound copy to help in finding an agent, or simply as a keepsake.”
*goggles* I hope all of the people who sign with Harlequin Horizons are rich, then. Because otherwise, spending thousands of dollars to self-publish your book just to give it as gifts to family/friends? Or keep it yourself? The same thing can be done for about twenty bucks with a printer and a nice binder folder. Plus, the idea that an author should self-pub so an agent can have a bound copy to read for query consideration makes even less sense, since agents know most publishers aren’t interested in previously-published novels. Just my opinion, but if that’s Harlequin’s take on uses for a self-published novel, THAT should be clearly stated on their website, instead of the bolded “Dare to Dream: Potential Discovery Opportunities” or “Reach the stars and prove dreams do come true” or the part about writers seeing their self-pubbed book on “the shelves of your local bookstore.”

I read the website as advertising the HQ name to the writer purchasing the services of the editorial they are providing. Meaning they are to be trusted to the writer who is purchasing their product becuase they are HQ. I didn’t read at all that the MARKETING of the finished product would be carried/branded by HQ. That’s a horse of a different color, but no where have they stated they would be marketing them as HQ, nor placing them. That’s the crux of self publishing, at that point it’s up to the writer unless they purchase a marketing package.

I think it was a brilliant move on their part. I know I’m the minority.

FROM MALLE:

Anonymous,
Sure! There will be a line about Harlequin Horizons as a self-publishing option on standard rejection letters with an option to opt-in via website. In other words, the aspiring author contacts Harlequin Horizons, not the other way around.

So, Harlequin, an old and trusted publisher, is going to suggest to this unpublised writer in a REJECTION letter that she might try Harlequin Horizons?

What will that uninformed unpublished writer think? That Harlequin is suggesting this is an appropriate next step if she wants to be published with Harlequin?

Do you not think that could be interpreted as a little, I don’t know,  unethical?
Like a scam?

Preying on the dreams of a woman who started reading Harlequins as a young girl and has spent years trying to realize her aspirations.

I can’t even verbalize how outraged I am.

I have no idea who that is in the above picture. She sure is cute but she’s not me

Anne M

Malle, I get that the Harlequin name won’t be on these books. But it’s hard to imagine there won’t be some entanglement.  How can Harlequin stop self-published authors from taking out advertisements that say:

“COMING FROM HARLEQUIN HORIZONS….”

Because, you know, the book they are writing IS being published by Harlequin Horizons.

I understand that Harlequin is trademarked, but once you do business with people, they would simply be stating the fact of the relationship—and they would be able to access the trademark under the doctrine of nominal fair use. Just like, if someone has been designated Playboy Playmate of the Year (a trademarked term), you can’t stop her from saying that she is the Playboy Playmate of the Year.

You can’t possibly have a brand that is solely author-facing, because the authors will then have the option to use it themselves. You may leave the branding off the spine and the metadata, but you can’t take it away from their websites, advertisements or descriptions (except perhaps through contract—which is a messier remedy than trademark—and even that can’t prevent other people from talking about the book as a Harlequin Horizons book).

This is not legal advice, just personal meanderings.

I’m just not sure it’s possible to have a brand that faces only one way.

A Nonny Mouse:

Apparently in a tough economy with money talking, the good guys sometimes like to don black hats as well.

I find it insane that publishers have ranted on and on about self publishing and how it isn’t “legitimate” and ESPECIALLY against vanity presses because they only take advantage of authors.

Now a well-known brand wants to take advantage of authors with a vanity press?

Wow.

They are only diluting their brand and credibility.  This will ultimately hurt Harlequin, Harlequin authors, and the image of mainstream publishing as “the best” (because while Harlequin Horizons is self pub, most regular readers aren’t going to understand that. They’ll just think Harlequin has stopped quality control at their company.)

Malle said:

There are a number of reasons to select self-publishing including as a way to see their work in print— to give copies as gifts, to have a bound copy to help in finding an agent, or simply as a keepsake. Harlequin is providing a service to those choosing to self-publish with a leading organization in this field, Author Solutions.

Hi Malle,
I guess I remain confused about how the Hollywood promotional trailer and so on fit into this line of thinking.  Those aren’t to snag an agent or have as a keepsake. 

And I find it kinda confusing that Harlequin would suggest this venue as a way to snag an agent: Harlequin rejects a manuscript, suggests the author pay to get it published herself, so s/he can then submit a bound, ISBN’ed manuscript to an agent, who then submits to . . . Harlequin . . . ? 

Not seeing how this works out well for authors or book lovers . . .  Not sure how this isn’t vanity press . . .

I didn’t read at all that the MARKETING of the finished product would be carried/branded by HQ. That’s a horse of a different color, but no where have they stated they would be marketing them as HQ, nor placing them.

But that’s misleading the customer into thinking they’re getting one product when they’re really getting another. They need to completely separate this entity from Harlequin: don’t recommend the service in rejection letters (that’s tacky, mean, and scummy), don’t advertise anywhere near the Harlequin brand, don’t in any way tie this product to their other products.

I’m a big consumer advocate, and services like this are not good for the final consumer: the reader. They deserve a product that has been through quality control, and vanity printers don’t offer that.

Let’s play pretend. I am 87 years old, I have umpteen grandchildren and I want to preserve my memories of an earlier time for them-I want them to know who I was when they are older, far after I’m gone. For a sum I can write these out and with the help of HQ have them edited, published and give them away to my family. I spend more $ on Christmas now, I can totally see this and I wish it was something my wild child Nana did. She had some explaining to do.

Another example-one that is based in truth for me but not in it’s extrapolated form. I have a platform I have that is unique to me. It’s something that is sitting on a big agent’s desk and as of yet, it hasn’t been rejected. But, considering the economic climate, they may not see the benefit in taking this nationwide. So, knowing my particular platform as well as I do, I write my book and have it edited and printed with HQ. I set myself up with speaking engagements which for this platform will be easy for me. I start making $ speaking all over and selling at huge conventions (the conventions for this are already huge, as well as the lists of speakers and classes) I realize I can reach a bigger audience -and my sales are steady-if I make a video. 20k with what I’m pulling in is an easy investment to push the platform to the next level and I take advantage of not having to figure it all out on my own and paying for something shoddy and grainy with mismatched music.

What I really hate with this whole discussion is that we’re now back to Self Published Authors are smarmy. It’s not Real Publishing. Well, E faced the same prejudice years ago.

Memoir authors and nonfiction / platform authors are not the primary people to whom this service will be promoted. Self publishing is handy for *that* (although this isn’t self publishing, it’s vanity publishing…but still.) Malle clearly stated it is intended for romance fiction manuscripts.

How can Harlequin stop self-published authors from taking out advertisements that say:

“COMING FROM HARLEQUIN HORIZONS….”

Because, you know, the book they are writing IS being published by Harlequin Horizons.

Yes. This.

You’d think the HH website would have addressed most concerns with informative Faqs, disclaimers and other pertinent info usually hidden in fine print. I hope Malle being the whipping girl for the blogs will at least result in substantive updates to the HH website regarding isbns, rights, etc.

P&E changed their listing:

http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebh.htm

Just posted on the RWA site:

Romance Writers of America’s mission and purpose is to advocate for the professional interests of career-focused romance writers and, despite recent changes within Harlequin Enterprise, we have not wavered from that mission. RWA does not have any professional partnership or collaboration with Harlequin Horizons, including its self-publishing marketing package.

The Board of Directors and Executive Director took the necessary steps to remove mention of RWA’s Romance Sells catalog from the Harlequin Horizons Web site.

Michelle Monkou
RWA President

I’d like to point out that, while Gramma’s memoirs might be a good fit for this service, I’m not sure she’d be willing to spend over $7,000 to get her 95,000 word story edited by HH.

Uh huh. Yeah. The cost for HH to completely edit a 95,000 word MS, which is considered a full-length novel = $7,315.00. The service is $0.077 a word.

I about fell off my chair.

http://www.harlequinhorizons.com/Servicestore/ServiceDetail.aspx?ServiceId=BS-6129

Hey Eva,

I don’t really think the message is that self published authors are smarmy. I’m an independent author, and I would never refer to myself as smarmy.

I think the issue is that the reality is… while SOME people can self-publish and produce a fantastic book and actually have enough marketing savvy to move it, MOST people can’t.

I’m all for being positive and reinforcing to people wanting to self-publish, but I’ve now worked with so many of these authors that I’ve come to learn that most people who self-publish really don’t have the talent or aptitude for publishing (and probably many of them shouldn’t be writing for public consumption either.)

That might be ‘mean’ but it is what it is. I think the problem is when we say “you must suck because you’re self-published.” It’s just like any other stereotype.  There are a lot of people “proving the stereotype” but it doesn’t make it true in individual cases.  I find it frustrating that I am sometimes automatically painted with that brush because “of course” if I was really any good I’d have a “real publisher.”  But I’m too independent for that.  I LIKE publishing my own work. 

I wish I could say that all or even most self published books were jewels, but they aren’t. I know the quality of what I will put out under my own imprint, but me, you, and everybody else can’t do quality control for any other self publishing author.  The result is, a lot of it is crap.

By associating what is going to be largely drek, with an established brand name, Harlequin harms everyone associated with that brand. But it’s not because “self-publishing is bad.” It’s just a basic matter of no quality control of other people’s work in a free market economy.

Uh huh. Yeah. The cost for HH to completely edit a 95,000 word MS, which is considered a full-length novel = $7,315.00. The service is $0.077 a word.

I about fell off my chair.

I did the math last night and had the same reaction. I charge about 1/10th that and have never had any complaints about the level of service provided.

Guess they’re really counting on people not doing any shopping around.

Verification code: eyes52. Yep, my eyes were probably about 52x normal when they read the prices on HH’s editing services.

Mallie said:

Again, self-publishing is a choice. We’re proud to offer this option to those who choose to self-publish, and for aspiring romance authors, an association with the Harlequin brand makes sense.

The brand, however, is only author-facing; Harlequin will not be branded on the books or in any of the metadata or sales information accompanying the book.

So…if only the author knows about the Harlequin brand association, how does this “association w/ the HQ brand” make sense for the writer?

Thanks, Stacia.

The only thing I’ve figured out about the publishing industry is that it is murky, ever-changing and more complicated than it probably needs to be.

So the prospect of having complete control over the final product, again, is intriguing to me.  As is the idea of taking control of the marketing and distributing process.  It’s a steep learning curve, sure, but I luuuuurrrve steep learning curves.  But I fully realize that many people just want the proverbial magic beans.  And that you have no way of knowing that about me.

Color me a little disturbed by the comments by the already pubbed authors who think that everybody else should work hard too…successful self pubbed authors and artists *have* worked damn hard.  Quite possibly harder in many cases.

Holy mother of….

Malle has just answered on DA that the author of the “self-published” book will receive 50% royalties on both print and ebooks.

And I thought the editing charge was insane??????

OMG

I just wanted to thank Stacia, Anonymous, the current Harlequin authors and others on this thread who have commented patiently and coherently on this topic. I’m too shocked and disgusted to contribute to the discussion in a manner that makes sense.

Elysa if you’re wanting to make a go at self-publishing to maintain editorial control, that’s perfectly legitimate—if you do so with the understanding that “control” means “work that is not writing and crafting novels,” and that “control” in terms of distribution is a whole ‘nother animal altogether (and one that is immensely harder to tame as a small entity than it is for a larger one with previously-established rapport).  But this venture as described by HH is different than self-publishing, it’s vanity-printing.  They retain more control than an author looking to self-pub should be comfortable with.

This is also assuming they have any distribution at all outside their website

Nadia Lee:

So…if only the author knows about the Harlequin brand association, how does this “association w/ the HQ brand” make sense for the writer?

I’m afraid the short answer to this is probably, because the consumer of the book—the *reader*—is not the market for what HH is selling.  The *author* is where their money comes from, hence they are marketing to the author.  It’ll be interesting to know just how much “association” they’re willing to let the author claim.

Spamword: moral29 oh, the places I could go with this…

Anon76 said:

Malle has just answered on DA that the author of the “self-published” book will receive 50% royalties on both print and ebooks.

Wow.  But . . .didn’t the writer already pay to have the book in print?  Why don’t they get 100% of proceeds?  I’m not up on self-published model (although this is vanity, of course, not self)  but is this the standard?  That’s just seems like the strangest thing . . . The most unfair thing.

How do franchises work?  Are there on-going royalties/percentages paid to the parent corp?  This is sounding like a franchise . . .

Eva Gale said:

I think it was a brilliant move on their part. I know I’m the minority.

Which is good—minorities add immeasurable value to everything from a culture to a conversation. 

And I agree that it’s a brilliant move for HQ.  Or actually, for Torstar.  There’s lots of potential money.  It’s a brilliant move for the bottom line.
Not for readers or writers. 

And who knows the longer term affect on Harlequin?  When an organism starts feeding too heavily on its strongest ‘organ’, it tends to weaken that once vital part.  In this case, it also runs the risk of demeaning the brand they’ve spend years building into something respected and reputable.

The impact on public perception may be thing the hardest hit of all.

That’s outrageous.  People are paying PREMIUM prices for your companies assistance in helping them get their book “self published.”  In my mind self published implies ownership but this is clearly not the case.  I could absolutely see why some people would choose to buy your editing, marketing and printing services—no matter how over priced—up until this point.  What a racket. lol

2. Will Harlequin Horizons hold the ISBNs and pay out royalties from the sales, if any? How does this differ from the “vanity press” model? How does it compare to the “self-publishing” model, in which the author holds the ISBNs and keeps all money from any sales?

Malle: The content is completely owned by the author. Royalties are 50% net from both eBooks and print.

One thing might be worth mentioing…

All those little ‘extras’ mentioned on the HH site?  The prices are nothing I’d ever consider paying.

The 1/4 page ad in RT?  I’d assume that HH would sign a contract with RT to get the cheaper pricing.

Boils down to the ads costing $2700 for a quarter-page ad.

HH will charge $1000 for the 4 authors, so it’s $4k.  That’s a $1300 profit to HH. 

I could find my own group of authors to co-op with/get the contract rate and do it for $300+ less.  Epubs often contract to do group ads just like this and it costs nowhere near $1k.

Yet the HH website lists this option as a money saving alternative.

The trailer packages?

You can pay $20000 for a Hollywood trailer if you go the HH route.

Or you can spend around $2000 for a good trailer, or $5000 for top of the line trailer from Circle of Seven.  That $5000 includes live actors, customized script, distribution, etc.

There is some serious markup there.  HUGE markup.

Sorry, this just doesn’t fly as legit.  Sending a rejected manuscript back with a link (IE a recommendation) to PAY the SAME publisher to publish it? 

And speaking of transparency, as a partner, how much does Harlequin get paid for titles published by Horizons, anyway?  How is this NOT a scam?

This isn’t a brilliant new path into the future of publishing.  Simple common sense tells you it’s a way for Harlequin to monetize their slush pile.

Tabetha,
I do hope you feel more understanding now about why a lot of us were up in arms over this whole thing. We smelled something fishy and couldn’t let it go until we had more facts.

Every aspiring writer and published author benefits when we can get the truths laid out on the table. It has never been about labeling others as too stupid to manage their own careers. Many of us have fallen into traps before, and sometimes we are very vocal in helping someone else not fall into those same traps.

And I agree that it’s a brilliant move for HQ.  Or actually, for Torstar.  There’s lots of potential money.  It’s a brilliant move for the bottom line.
Not for readers or writers. 

I agree with you, Kris.

I’m sorry but to many POD/vanity press books are so poorly written, they never do much of anything.  However, the POD publisher makes money hand over fist… FROM THE AUTHORS…those who paying huge amounts of money in the hopes of seeing something huge come from their writing.

This isn’t good for writers, especially not those who put a lot of time, energy and effort into writing.  If the writer just wants to see the book in print, that’s one thing.  But if they actually hope to make a career of it?  This isn’t the route but a lot of people will sink money, a lot of money, into it without realizing they probably won’t make a career of it.

Uh huh. Yeah. The cost for HH to completely edit a 95,000 word MS, which is considered a full-length novel = $7,315.00. The service is $0.077 a word.

I looked at the cost for plain old line editing, multiplied it out, and had a similar reaction.  Note to authors: there are excellent freelance copyeditors who will edit your manuscript (maybe even to the Content Editing level) for a little over half the cost of HH’s line editing.  (And I wouldn’t be surprised if some of those excellent freelancers are indeed the folks who’ll be doing the actual editing, and getting paid about what you’d pay them if you worked with them directly.)

I can see the services being of value to someone who’d rather spend more money than spend the time finding an editor and designer, registering their copyright, etc. themselves.  That’s a perfectly good reason to use this or another service.  But if you’ve got more time than money, you’re better off arranging for editing, etc. yourself.

$20k for a trailer? A trailer? Didn’t they make that movie Paranormal Activity for $10K???

Anon76,
I never once objected to people laying out the facts or pitfalls of self publishing/vanity press in general or how it applies to HQ and what they’re selling.  My ONLY objection to this discussion was the BS hyperbole about empty bank accounts and broken dreams that started off in the beginning.

Day two of this, at least my involvement with it, and I still can’t lose that coppery taste in my mouth over it.  Yuck. 

While I have never personally held aspirations of publishing through Harlequin, the name was old, respectful, and being a HQ author held a degree of respect.  It said “I worked hard and won”. 

I am absolutely appalled that HQ would keep their name on their Horizon’s venture.  Financially I can see the motive, but tie in HQ with it?  Brand it the same?  Hello? Who got a hold of too much eggnog before the holidays?

Why in the world would a publishing house with that kind of reputation accept work that does not meet their standards AND tie their name to it?

And as for all the authors who write for HQ, I feel for you.  I’m sick to my stomach about this.  I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I had a contract there.

On the flip side… oh how fun it would be to be a mouse in RWA while this muck gets sifted through.

SB Sarah and I traded a few emails back in May or June about some of the truths regarding POD publishing, so I thought I’d throw caution to the wind and share some hard numbers with anyone here who might think the author is making out great by getting 50% royalties per print copy.

Malle: The content is completely owned by the author. Royalties are 50% net from both eBooks and print.

Note: I have a sneaking suspicion that HH and ASI are actually using Lightning Source for printing and distribution, and if that’s the case, these numbers below are 100% accurate, considering I use Lightning Source and these are my exact numbers.

The cut Malle is referring to most likely doesn’t mean 50% of the cover price. It probably means if these authors are lucky, and they set a 6"x9” trade paperback with roughly 225 pages (95,000 words) at a retail price of $12.99, they’re pulling down a total net profit of about $2.00.

See, how it works is that to get distribution to Amazon/B&N/BAM the author has to be willing to offer them said book at a wholesale discount of 55% and agree to accept returns. Which means instead of paying $12.99 per book, Amazon is buying the book from the author for $5.85, even though they charge the customer $12.99 (and make $7 in profit for their trouble). From there, subtract from that $5.85 the printing fee that HH will no doubt charge of at least $3.80, and that leaves a net profit of $2.05. Now, if the author is only receiving 50% of that net, then they’re only making $1.00 a book.

And, not to point out the obvious, but if the average self-published/vanity published author only sells 75 copies, and you spent $600 just to get the thing into print form…I think you see where I’m going.

I admit, I can’t really speculate as to what they’re going to do with e-books though. Even at a price tag of $5.99, my e-books in Kindle and Mobi format only pull down a royalty of $2.10 per copy after Amazon takes their cut (Amazon owns Mobipocket, FYI). The PDF version I sell through my website generates the most profit, being $5.49 that goes straight into my bank account for each copy sold.

Depending on the cut HH takes from their e-books, I’d almost be willing to bet that their authors will make more from selling e-book copies than print. And if that’s the case, there isn’t an author out there, unless you can edit, format and design an e-book yourself, who wouldn’t benefit more by submitting to a recognized e-publisher.

I think the issue is that the reality is… while SOME people can self-publish and produce a fantastic book and actually have enough marketing savvy to move it, MOST people can’t.

I’m all for being positive and reinforcing to people wanting to self-publish, but I’ve now worked with so many of these authors that I’ve come to learn that most people who self-publish really don’t have the talent or aptitude for publishing (and probably many of them shouldn’t be writing for public consumption either.)

I don’t disagree with you in the least bit, and there are those desperate enough to make these moves without thinking of consequences first. Consequences that may not neccesarily bad, but you have to be willing to pay them and go forward. Count the cost before you jump.

It’s hard to say, but the truth in business is sometimes hard-people need to land in the mud to learn a lesson. Sometimes the worst thing you can do is protect a person from themselves. Sometimes the best lessons are learned from our biggest mistakes. It would be up to that writer to take that lesson and make career decisons with it.

Now, I have to say that reading HH’s website that they, too also know that this is what will happen. They say it much more softly, but they let the consumer know that basically they will have to teach some people to write. Do they want to pay that much for a one on one class with an editor? That’s up to them and their pocketbook.

Wasn’t it Thomas Edison who said he learned more from his mistakes than his success’?

I didn’t expect RWA to endorse it, I don’t think that it’s going to make everyone’s dream come true, but with the right person it’s a viable option that will work. It is not my job to tell people that they are not allowed to make their own career decisions, it’s the Libertarian in me I guess. 

island83 cause I’m stuck on an island with my opinion

Laura Kinsale said: 

Simple common sense tells you it’s a way for Harlequin to monetize their slush pile.

Thank you for saying it, Laura.  THIS.

security word = quite73.  as in, “It’s quite outrageous for HH to take a 50% net royalty on a book that an aspiring author -  who owns the content - PAYS THEM TO PUBLISH.” Talk about double-dipping.

Translation:

“The brand is author facing” = “we are charging you hundreds of dollars for Harlequin, but giving you Authorhouse.”

It is to laugh.

I just want this all to go away. I’m not even published with Harlequin, but I had them in mind for a future project.

For you numbers and money people: How badly would things have to go for HH to be shuttered? And is that even something to imagine? Because if no one is paying their fees, they don’t have to do any work, so the overhead should be low, right? Is there a point at which the program wouldn’t make financial sense?

For you numbers and money people: How badly would things have to go for HH to be shuttered? And is that even something to imagine? Because if no one is paying their fees, they don’t have to do any work, so the overhead should be low, right? Is there a point at which the program wouldn’t make financial sense?

I suppose it depends on how much ASI/Author House is paying Harlequin to use its name.

$20k for a trailer? A trailer? Didn’t they make that movie Paranormal Activity for $10K???

Yep.  $20k.

Or $4800 for a trailer with voiceover/$2300 without voiceover.

You can get one done @ Circle for Seven for $1500 and if I recall write, add voiceover for an additional $500.  So $2000 for the same thing HH will charge $4800 for. 

(disclaimer…yep, I’ve used COS several times… any experience I’ve had with book trailers comes from working with them).

Wasn’t it the RWA that used to ban agents who funneled rejected authors to paid editing services? Or was it another organization? I remember a discussion about how unethical it was for agents to get cash kickbacks from these sorts of referrals. The details are fuzzy, but it seems like a parallel situation.

Ok, see this is why I love the Bitchery.
I see Sarah’s new post and I think, cool! another possibility for me to check out down the line…then all this amazing dialogue goes down, and I walk away with so much more info than if I had tried to look into this by myself (I still hadn’t made it over to the actual HW self-pub site).

As I have said, I am just getting started in all of this, have yet to submit anything anywhere, and I really appreciate all the great advice, suggestions, warnings, etc that come through the comments section around here. And that goes for all sides of this argument - hearing every angle is what has made it so informative.

Wasn’t it the RWA that used to ban agents who funneled rejected authors to paid editing services? Or was it another organization?

That’s AAR. The big guy. An agent can’t be a member of THE agents’ group if they do that.

Soooo, from the other side of the coin:

If HH isn’t going to be identified with Harlequin in any way, per Jayne and Malle; no Amazon search results, no branding, presence in bookstores, no Googling Harlequin to turn up HH books; why would anybody pay exorbitant HH fees? 

Isn’t the message HQN is sending via its website and poor Malle exactly the opposite?  Aren’t prospective authors/purchasers of HH’s ‘services’ getting the message that yes, they will be identified with HQN—and that justifies the high costs?  Why else advertise it as such?

And 50% of net boggles the mind.

Upthread I said “nominal fair use” and this is what I get for typing while in a hurry. Clearly I meant “nominative fair use” which is an actual trademark doctrine.

Mea culpa.

*blushes*

Money flows toward the writer, not away.

Eva said:

It’s hard to say, but the truth in business is sometimes hard-people need to land in the mud to learn a lesson. Sometimes the worst thing you can do is protect a person from themselves.

Very true.  A belief structure I agree with wholeheartedly. 

And . . . there’s a difference between being the one to say, “Jeez, there’s a lot of crazy stuff out there, gotta watch out” and being the one who CREATES the crazy stuff people have to watch out for. 

And then, if you do go around creating crazy stuff people have to watch out for, you need to expect that others are going to point and say, “Watch out!  That’s some crazy stuff!”

As someone who is writing hoping to get published, this is very confusing.  I know you don’t get anywhere without paying… “Nothing from nothing leaves nothing” ..but this new thing with Har.. sounds scary.  No guarantee of ever being published.  Think I will go the old route and pray alot..
Thanks for the info.

If HH isn’t going to be identified with Harlequin, then why is there an HH “Become an Author” button on the top of every single writing how-to page over at e-harlequin?

Including the one called “From Slush to Shelf”

*headdesk*

If HH isn’t going to be identified with Harlequin, then why is there an HH “Become an Author” button on the top of every single writing how-to page over at e-harlequin?

Including the one called “From Slush to Shelf”

Damn. Good. Point.

Laura K. nailed it upstream.  This is an effort to get an income stream from their slushpile. 

Think about it.  Harlequin could make more off an author’s book by rejecting it than printing it.  Diabolical.

DEAR HARLEQUIN,

Please note the beginning of the post by Brenda:

“As someone who is writing hoping to get published, this is very confusing.  I know you don’t get anywhere without paying… “Nothing from nothing leaves nothing””

Go read the lyrics, dear harlequin, and apply it to this new venture.

Victoria Strauss of Writer Beware boils it down: This is about money. Now more than ever, commercial publishers need to shore up their bottom lines—and adding self-publishing divisions is an easy and profitable way to do so.

YES. Several comments upthread (including my first, hem hem) mention Torstar. For those of you who aren’t Canucks, Torstar, HQ’s parent company, also owns the Toronto Star newspaper—another dying business model. HQ is their ONLY profitable division, so you can see the temptation to keep milking that cash cow.

FWIW, as a librarian, my feelings are in line with hapax & Kristin Nelson: ever increasing numbers of books are not what the publishing industry needs. The number of readers isn’t growing exponentially to match, and even total biblioaddicts like myself can only read so many books a year.

@Brenda:

As someone who is writing hoping to get published, this is very confusing.  I know you don’t get anywhere without paying…

Nonononononononononono!! NO!

Honey, that’s not true. It’s not true at ALL. You do not need to pay for anything, not a single thing (okay, sure, postage maybe, if you’re querying agents or publishers who want paper submissions/snail mail queries/whatever).

You DO NOT PAY. You invest your time and effort. Publishers invest the money.

I started out writing for epublishers. I was accepted at Ellora’s Cave, and published several erotic romances (I can’t remember if it was seven or eight and don’t feel like going to check) with them under my old pen name. Total cost to me for writing the books, querying them, and publishing with them = $0.00

I wrote my first attempt at romantic urban fantasy, a novel called PERSONAL DEMONS. Queried a few agents and then found Wildside Press (a small press) had just started an imprint called Juno, which was essentially a female-focused fantasy imprint. I followed their guidelines and submitted by email. They bought the book, and paid me an advance. Total cost to me for writing the book, querying them, and publishing with them = $0.00

The first Demons book sold pretty well, so I wrote a second, which Juno again paid me for. While writing it I had an idea for a new book/series, UNHOLY GHOSTS, which I wrote and loved. I queried agents again, and three days after querying one of them he offered to represent me. Two months later we had a deal with Del Rey, for three books, for which I was again paid. Total cost to me for writing, querying, getting an agent and a book deal = $0.00

Meanwhile Pocket Books (Simon & Schuster) acquired the Juno line and with it three Juno series: Carole Nelson Douglas’s, mine, and Maria Lima’s. They bought DEMON INSIDE, the second Demons book, from Juno and published it. They have also paid me for the third Demons book which will be out in March 2010. Total cost to me = $0.00.

When PERSONAL DEMONS was released I was fairly broke. I couldn’t afford to buy ads or do much promo, so beyond posting excerpts and running a small contest (for copies I got FREE from my publisher). I spent maybe a hundred bucks or so on promo, and it was worth it because the book was in stores, easy for readers to find. So far I’ve spent a couple of hundred bucks on promo for UNHOLY GHOSTS as well. I am not required to do this; I’m doing it for fun, and to make people happy, and to do what I can for my books, but I am not required by my publisher to do it in any way.

You do NOT have to spend money to be published, and published well. I promise.

I have a few not completely related responses, so I’m just going to number them for clarity:

1. I find it more, not less honorable and honest for a company like Harlequin to *publicly* announce and admit its partnership with self-publishing. I do not understand why it’s better for a company like Random House to buy half ownership in Xlibris on the QT—because they can make money off of self-publishing without copping to their investment in it? Sorry if I don’t buy any explanation that includes something along the lines of ‘they don’t want to misinform authors or readers.’ It may be that they are ashamed of the self-pub or that they don’t want to “sully” their image, as so many of the responses here have suggested that such an association represents. Which brings me back to saying kudos to Harlequin for being up front.

2. However, is ASI a vanity press or self-publisher? Victoria Strauss referred to the company as “a POD self-publishing services,” but I understand there is a lot of debate around the vanity/self publisher, so that’s an unresolved issue, right?

3. The branding issue is confusing. If Harlequin is not overtly branding the line, then what’s the value for potential authors. And if they are overtly branding the line, then there’s some concern regarding brand dilution and reader/author confusion. I think this is one of the most compelling problems here that needs to be more clearly and directly addressed by Harlequin.

4. I agree with those who find it tacky for Harlequin to advertise/recommend the HH option in rejection letters. It seems like disingenuous solicitation. I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to monetize the slush pile. Nor do I think the public association between Harlequin proper and HH is all negative; in fact, I think you could make an argument that Harlequin is simply doing overtly what other publishers are doing more slyly. And as I said above, I prefer the honest approach. But the direct referral is a bit much, IMO.

5. I am curious now about how this author outrage is going to transfer to RWA’s position on this development. It seems to me that RWA either needs to welcome electronic, self, and vanity publishers in if they are going to sustain Harlequin’s approval in the organization, OR they need to retract their approval of Harlequin. Will authors pressure RWA for one of those solutions?

As a reader, publisher branding means almost nothing to me. I am more aware of it in regard to epresses, and I certainly identify with some Harlequin lines over others, but I am primarily author-driven in my purchasing choices. Consequently, I do not see HH as an insult to existing Harlequin authors, because IMO their own work is what recommends them (or not). Nor am I so satisfied with the quality of what’s being trad published these days that I think HH is guaranteed to be a steaming pile of crap, relatively speaking.

So if all of this anger comes from the feeling that authors are being disrespected, that the prestige of “professional” publishing is being diminished, I would say that I doubt there are many readers who would feel that way about professionally published authors, whether e or print.  If the concern is, as it’s been articulated here numerous times, for fellow/aspiring authors, then I would expect some collective action on the part of authors, and what better place to start than the main professional organization that presents itself as focused on helping writers establish professional writing and publication credits.

As someone who is writing hoping to get published, this is very confusing.  I know you don’t get anywhere without paying…

Nonononononononononono!! NO!

Honey, that’s not true. It’s not true at ALL. You do not need to pay for anything, not a single thing (okay, sure, postage maybe, if you’re querying agents or publishers who want paper submissions/snail mail queries/whatever).

You DO NOT PAY. You invest your time and effort. Publishers invest the money.

Thank you, Stacia! My heart just sank when I saw Brenda’s post, but you answered her before I could.

So if all of this anger comes from the feeling that authors are being disrespected, that the prestige of “professional” publishing is being diminished, I would say that I doubt there are many readers who would feel that way about professionally published authors, whether e or print.  If the concern is, as it’s been articulated here numerous times, for fellow/aspiring authors, then I would expect some collective action on the part of authors, and what better place to start than the main professional organization that presents itself as focused on helping writers establish professional writing and publication credits.

My outrage is on behalf of people who don’t know anything about publishing, get that first reject from HQ, and are then mislead into thinking that this is how publishing works. If someone is an RWA member, they should damn well know better, but I’m willing to bet that there are huge numbers of people out there shopping around their first manuscript that have never heard of RWA (I know, cause I was one of them back in 2004!).

I find it more, not less honorable and honest for a company like Harlequin to *publicly* announce and admit its partnership with self-publishing.

And if that’s ALL they were doing, I might agree with you, but the whole pointing rejected authors at their own vanity pub site thing is just beyond the pale.

Wow—quite an eye opening discussion.

Thank you Bonny Members of the Bitchery!  Carry on.

RandomHouse isn’t using its considerable weight to funnel writers to Xlibris.

There’s definitely a place for honest, and reasonably priced, vanity houses. The stardust-in-your-eyes talk on Harlequin Horizons’ site isn’t honest. Neither is sending rejectees an invite to pay-to-play and presenting it as a viable entry into the marketplace alongside commercially published books. And HH’s prices are far, far from reasonable.

The RandomHouse/Xlibris and RWA Is Bad, Bad, Bad issues are red herrings in this discussion.

Robin,

Publishers are basically the venture capitalists of the book world.  The author creates the product, the VC provides the capital to get it out into the world.  The creator risks his time, the VC risks his money and adds his/her biz expertise—they make some deal btw them on how to split the profits, but the VC assumes the biggest risk of $ loss.  Usually this means the VC gets a much bigger slice of the pie if the product is successful, because they took a bigger monetary risk. VC’s lose a lot, but play to win big, or to develop solid profitable businesses over time.  Fine.

The self-publishing model means that the creator of the product goes it alone in getting the product out into the world, assumes all the risk, and takes all the profit and/or loss.  Also fine.

The vanity publishing model means the “VC” says to the author, you risk your your time, and your money, in hopes you succeed.  I assume no risk, I offer no valid biz/market expertise besides a few hints that may or may not be of any actual validity, but I take a significant percent if you do succeed, and I get a guaranteed profit even if you fail.

The HH model means that in an added twist, the strong suggestion is made to the author that somehow he/she will have the benefit of Harlequin as a VC—the biz expertise, the market, the ads, the book trailers, the implication of getting past closed doors in Hollywood…meanwhile saying at the same time, the opposite, you won’t get the benefit of Harlequin as VC, but in a very unclear manner.  There’s a strong sales pitch here.  What’s the product?  Dreams.

In addition, the real VC, Harlequin, who just rejected you, will now suggest that you give them money to play pretend VC.  IE, Harlequin wants to pretend to play VC, and reap the VC profit, but without the risk.

I understand that several people are having difficulty grasping what’s wrong with this picture, and why it’s not the same as a shiny new way for publishing to go.  But it’s not.  There’s nothing new about it.  It’s one of the oldest tricks in the book. 

Pay me, and I’ll make you a star.

As P.T. Barnum said…

I think we may all be getting pretty tired of this topic – at least for today! – as the conversation seems to be going around in a circle with those who believe self-publishing/vanity publishing is evil and should be outlawed and others who see it as another choice for writers. You know where Harlequin stands!

If you have questions about the Harlequin brand, distribution, etc these questions have been answered several times here and at http://www.dearauthor.com.

All of that said, I do want to share that we are very comfortable with Author Solutions as a self-publisher. We fully vetted their processes and found their services to be excellent.

Twenty percent of Author Solutions clients publish more than one book with them, a stat that speaks to their customer satisfaction.

In fact, I anonymously bought a self-packaging service that included an editorial critique as we were investigating Author Solutions. If you don’t know my background I am a former editor with Harlequin (10 years, sorry to those who thought I needed more print experience) and I have written and published seven romance novels (under Molly Liholm). I pulled out an old mss, a story I still like but which I know needs some work, paid my money and sent it in.

I was impressed with the service. They got back to me quickly. My critique was spot on. I had a long telephone conversation with my editor about what I wanted to do with my novel – did I simply want copies for myself and family; did I hope to be able to get it into a bookstore – and we agreed on next steps. As a result, I am very comfortable recommending Harlequin Horizons to anyone interested in self-publishing.

This is where many of you will segue back into the discussion that self-publishing is evil. Yeah, I’m not with you.

I asked Author Solutions to clarify a few issues. This is from them:

“Authors published through Harlequin Horizons maintain all rights to their content. This means if a large traditional publisher, Harlequin or otherwise; an international publisher or film studio wants to acquire rights to the work, the author is free to sell them. Of course, this also means that an author published through Harlequin Horizons is free to work with an agent to market their works. Author Solutions, the publisher that Harlequin has partnered with for this project, has a number of authors each year who get picked up by agents, traditional publishers, independent publishers and international publishers. Lisa Genova, author of Still Alice, which spent several months of 2009 on the New York Times best seller list is one such success story.

“Here’s a 2009 podcast during which she talks about her self-publishing experience http://www.iuniverse.com/ExpertAdvice/iUniversity/Podcasts/Author/StillAlice.aspx

“Still Alice was turned down by agents and all of the major trade houses. She published through iUniverse. Marketed her book hard. Got some great reviews. An agent got ahold of it and a bidding war ensured. She secured a six-figure advance from Simon & Schuster in spring 2008, it debuted upon re-release at #4 on the NY Times Bestseller List in early Jan. 2009. 

“Not a typical story, but it certainly shows what she would’ve missed out on if she’d followed the advice of the agent who told her self-publishing the book would kill her career.”

I’m sure I haven’t changed anyone’s mind who is predisposed to thinking self publishing is terrible or that we didn’t consider the pros and cons.  We did. We will also monitor sales of the books that come through this channel and we hope to find a few gems we would not have found otherwise and offer these authors a contract with Harlequin Enterprises.

I’m repeating that this in no way replaces our regular submissions process, nor are we going to simply reject out of hand any and all manuscripts b/c we can make more money through this venture – our goal remains to discover new voices and new talents and nurture them to long and fulfilling careers as writers; this partnership gives us access to a new talent pool, self-published authors, whose works might have otherwise gone completely unread except by the editor who initially rejected the manuscript.

Perhaps we should all return to focusing back on our own writing (me included!). 

Good night!
PS I’ve also posted this at http://www.dearauthor.com

And . . . there’s a difference between being the one to say, “Jeez, there’s a lot of crazy stuff out there, gotta watch out” and being the one who CREATES the crazy stuff people have to watch out for.

And then, if you do go around creating crazy stuff people have to watch out for, you need to expect that others are going to point and say, “Watch out!  That’s some crazy stuff!”

Maybe HQ has a lesson to learn in this also, no? Isn’t that the beauty of capitalism? Maybe in a few months they will find that their prices need to come down becuase they’re not targeting the right demographic (That telephone image? I think this is aimed toward people who still USE telephones as their main source of communication), maybe they’ll find that there aren’t as many writers buying their product, and yes, they deserve to be called crazy if they are. But there is a segment of writer that may take this and fly and that oppurtunity should be there for them if they so choose-even if they choose to business with another, cheaper company.

From the RWA site: “With the launch of Harlequin Horizons, Harlequin Enterprises no longer meets the requirements to be eligible for RWA-provided conference resources.”

...the conversation seems to be going around in a circle with those who believe self-publishing/vanity publishing is evil and should be outlawed and others who see it as another choice for writers.

Now you’re just making stuff up. The only two uses of the word “evil” in this entire comments thread besides your own are referring to Harlequin’s methods, not to self- or vanity-publishing. And no one has said it should be outlawed either.

Twenty percent of Author Solutions clients publish more than one book with them, a stat that speaks to their customer satisfaction.

You should see how many people send their second book to PublishAmerica. That people do so says nothing about customer satisfaction and everything about writers who believe this is the way things work.

Malle

This is NOT self-publishing! You should stop calling it that, or else we’ll have to start calling you a liar.
I realize you’re in an unenviable position, trying to pretty up a sleazy undertaking, and I have some sympathy for that, but the people posting here and at Dear Author are savvy folks, many of them with extensive experience in publishing. Weasel-wording and bullshit isn’t going to go over well.

Does the author own the ISBN? Does the author pocket ALL profits after expenses? Does the author control the production process?

No? Then it isn’t self-publishing. It’s vanity.

“Authors published through Harlequin Horizons maintain all rights to their content. This means if a large traditional publisher, Harlequin or otherwise; an international publisher or film studio wants to acquire rights to the work, the author is free to sell them.”

So, you actually don’t know what first publishing rights are.  because anyone published by Hh cannot retain them.

I think we may all be getting pretty tired of this topic – at least for today! – as the conversation seems to be going around in a circle with those who believe self-publishing/vanity publishing is evil and should be outlawed and others who see it as another choice for writers.

That statement strikes me as deliberately inflammatory and obtuse. No one here has called self- or vanity-publishing “evil.” What we have said is that it’s wrong to misrepresent it to authors.

You know where Harlequin stands!

I sure do. At this point, Harlequin stands as a publisher no longer eligible for RWA recognition.

I am so fucking impressed by the RWA right now, I can hardly breathe.

Anon, you posted:

From the RWA site: “With the launch of Harlequin Horizons, Harlequin Enterprises no longer meets the requirements to be eligible for RWA-provided conference resources.”

Is this RWA’s stand, or a member voicing an opinion?

Oh, and by the way:
I asked Author Solutions to clarify a few issues. This is from them:

“Authors published through Harlequin Horizons maintain all rights to their content. This means if a large traditional publisher, Harlequin or otherwise; an international publisher or film studio wants to acquire rights to the work, the author is free to sell them.”

This is an utter and complete falsehood. By publishing the book, complete with ISBN, First Publication rights are used up. The book is PUBLISHED. Period. First Rights are like virginity; once they’re gone, they’re gone, and you cannot get them back whether using them at that time & place was the right thing or not.

Sure, the author can sell reprint rights. Those are much less valuable.

Of course, this also means that an author published through Harlequin Horizons is free to work with an agent to market their works.

Agents do not market works. Agents submit books to publishers (to see if the editors will buy first rights, generally) and manage other aspects of a writer’s career. They have zero to do with marketing.

And agents are generally totally uninterested in selling reprints or representing self-published books.

Author Solutions, the publisher that Harlequin has partnered with for this project, has a number of authors each year who get picked up by agents, traditional publishers, independent publishers and international publishers.

What number would that be? Approximately what percentage of all AuthorHouse writers get picked up?

Lisa Genova, author of Still Alice, which spent several months of 2009 on the New York Times best seller list is one such success story.

And that is excellent for her, and I congratulate her. That still doesn’t mean what you’re doing is honest, or that lightning will strike twice.

Anon76, Michelle Monkou (RWA President ) posted it over on Dear Author (http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2009/11/18/malle-vallik-harlequins-digital-director-answers-questions-on-harlequin-horizons/)

Anon76, that is AFAIK from a letter by RWA’s President; it’s official.

That’s their official stance, Anon76.  They just sent it out all over the place.  I’m with Stacia…I’m impressed for the first time with RWA.

That’s direct from the RWA announcemen. Non-members can read it on Ann Aguirre’s blog here: http://www.annaguirre.com/archives/2009/11/18/rwa-has-stones/

I, too, am very proud of RWA right now. 

Please note, I’m not saying selfpub is evil, not saying vanity pub is evil, not saying harlequin is evil.

But RWA’s guidelines are clear:  An eligible publisher can not be a vanity/self pubbed press.

Harlequin no longer fits those guidelines.

I’m seriously sorry for the H/S authors who are impacted.
I’m also sorry for the position the board was put in over this.  It couldn’t have been easy.

I’m damn proud of them right now-they made the right decision.

Well hells bells. I’m am totally impressed by the boards decision.

I just wanted clairty because I didn’t want to say something was a fact if it wasn’t from the horse’s mouth.

I may have to curl up with my laptop and read all 272 posts here. I just got the email from RWA announcing that Harlequin Enterprises can’t have space at RWA nationals officially or something like that - I don’t want to cut and paste, I don’t think that’s appropriate. But for those of you who have read it, what does it mean (newbie in some ways, just trying to get a handle on all of this excitement) to Harlequin authors, or does it have any impact on them at all, as far as Harlequin’s presence at RWA Nationals.

Can someone spell it out for me- Are Harlequin authors eligible for RITA awards?

Katie, the 2009 RITA Eligibility rules are decided as of the opening date of the contest, which was September-somethingth. So Harlequin authors who have books out in 2009 are eligible to enter those books as books produced by an RWA-Eligible publisher.

The 2010 RITA Eligibility rules have not yet been announced—and much could happen between HQN & RWA—so it’s early days to speculate there.

BTW, to clarify. In my next-to-last post above I was quoting Malle; the line about asking Author Solutions to clarify was hers, and I forgot to delete it when I quoted the pertinent parts of her post.

Apologies.

Harlequin will have to pay for its own space at National.
It will impact on Harlequin authors. Nobody knows how yet. The Board is still sorting all this out. I do not envy them. I would think it has implications for PAN, the RITAs and National.

Won’t RWA’s move simply hurt HQN authors? I doubt HQN will suddenly close this new imprint because they won’t get free entry to National anymore.

problems36 - I’m thinking this raises more than 36 problems, but how appropo. :)

Malle said on…
11.18.09 at 02:04 PM

I think we may all be getting pretty tired of this topic – at least for today! – as the conversation seems to be going around in a circle with those who believe self-publishing/vanity publishing is evil and should be outlawed and others who see it as another choice for writers. You know where Harlequin stands!

I am (1) published in print and digital through more than one of the “major” epub houses, (2) published through a traditional publisher, an (3) self-pubbed digitally at a level several multiples over the average “self-pubbed” numbers by title. I do not believe self-publishing is evil, I do not believe book packaging services are evil.

You are right, I know where Harlequin stands—and I now know how low they are willing to go standing there. Not only will HH not be getting any submissions from me, but neither will Carina or any other Harlequin Enterprises venture. Your “spin” on the legitimate concern being expressed here has made you a very unreliable source in my opinion on anything of any concern to any writer anywhere.

And kudos to RWA for finally getting something right.

RWA’s decision is huge, and will greatly impact Harlequin authors.  In the past, I’ve used the national conference to have dinner with my editor, attend meet and greets with other HQ editors, mingle at the HQ party, sign my books at the booksigning, enter the Rita, and so on.  Now that HQ is no longer recognized, all of that is in jeopardy.  HQ was a big part of the conference.  I think the fallout from this is going to be big—and detrimental to their authors.

Twenty percent of Author Solutions clients publish more than one book with them, a stat that speaks to their customer satisfaction.

But that means that 80% of clients don’t ever come back.  I dunno about everyone else, but if a company only has a 20% satisfaction rate, I’d run for the hills.  And how is that poor rate a good indication that HH is helping writers to build their careers?

Won’t RWA’s move simply hurt HQN authors? I doubt HQN will suddenly close this new imprint because they won’t get free entry to National anymore.

Okay, from my perspective?  I rarely attend Nationals and when I do, I organize private stuff to do with my editor and I don’t do the Lit Signing - the only bummer is the meet-and-greets and the PASIC session HQN hold with their authors (but I don’t know if they are affected at all). I don’t enter the RITA because it’s all subjective and a massive numbers game and I’d rather spend the money elsewhere.  I’m already a PAN member and anyway, membership is based on sales and royalties, not publisher.  So in those ways, it won’t affect me much at all. But what it DOES say to me is that RWA is being an advocate for its members and telling HQN to play by the rules or go play with someone else.  (I’d say ‘go play with themselves’ but that just sounds rude ;-))

I find it presumptuous to question the motives of people expressing genuine concern over these developments at Harlequin.  Reading through this thread, the reasons seem varied and not easily attributed to one motive of “outrage” or implied protecionism. 

Harlequin seems to be operating on the idea of forgiveness rather than permission.  It’s often a good strategy, but in this case it could very well bite them in the butt—and not just because of the RWA.  It’ll be interesting to see if any of their established authors fly the coop and if the quality of their brand and product go down. 

I’m not making any predictions, but I have my popcorn and will be watching… at least until that first $20K trailer hits the net.

I’m already a PAN member and anyway, membership is based on sales and royalties, not publisher.

THat’s not whath the RWA website says, PAN is eligible for authors who make 1k with a non-vanity non-subsidy press. So, technically, you are not an author by RWA standards.

Any RWA General or Honorary member in good standing who has either: (1) earned at least $1,000 in the form of an advance on a single romance novel or novella published by a non-subsidy, non-vanity publisher (“Option One”); or (2) who has earned at least $1,000 in the form of royalties or a combination of advance plus royalties on a single published romance novel or novella published by a non-subsidy, non-vanity publisher (“Option Two”) shall be eligible for membership in PAN.

Eva- sounds to me that means that’s the criteria for PAN membership.  Anyone who’s already a member satisfied that criteria already. When they obtained that membership, their publisher was non-vanity.  New HQ authors will not be eligible. At least that’s how I read it.

Wow!  It’s been a long time since I was this proud of RWA.

Veronica said:

New HQ authors will not be eligible. At least that’s how I read it.

That’s true and it’s what poses a huge problem. Are agents going to stop selling to HQN? Are writers going to stop wanting that cake of HQN? That’s a serious paycheck, there. So, RWA is saying that these new to HQN authors aren’t authors.

Personally, while I like that they’ve taken a hard stand, I think it was a stupid one to take. Sitting back for a week and really thinking this through and how it effects the members wouldn’t have hurt them at all. 

I know, and we who have fought for the rights of e-publishers know that these authors are Authors, but now what is RWA going to do to reinstate these author’s level within RWA?

So, it either makes RWA irrelevant (which makes all that they have just said bupkis), OR they are going to have to come out with another ruling that says if you make____ from ANY publisher you qualify for PAN, which goes and validates what HQN did. Otherwise RWA just took those authors and set them afloat in the dinghy.

They now will have to revisit what constitues Published and Not.

I’m not saying that this isn;t a good thing, this revisitation, but I think that thins all should ahve been thought through beforehand. Are agents going to stop subbing to HQN becuase of RWAs stance? I doubt it.

Eva, I don’t think RWA had a choice. They have their rules and definitions and criteria.  They’ve scrupulously applied them across the board all along to sort their sheep from goats, and plenty of print presses and e-presses have been unwillingly goat-i-fied by RWA.  If RWA didn’t apply the same criteria and same definitions to Harlequin, the hypocrisy would’ve been staggering, and the implication that they’d been ‘bought’ by HQ would’ve demolished their credibility.

I am a writer that dabbles in romance and I have vague aspirations of someday being published. I have not done any in depth research into what goes into being published nor looked at the RWA website. Before I started reading this conversation I read the Harlequin Horizon information. I then read this entire page.

I learned a lot of things that will help me out when I decide to publish. A lot of stuff was pointed out that I would have not thought about on my own. (for example: I didn’t know you didn’t have to pay to get published) But, when I got to Malle’s post I was caught off guard. Big things I had assumed from what I read on Harlequin Horizons was incorrect.

One of them being that I thought that any novel that I would submit through HH would be associated with Harlequin. Which Malle said was incorrect.

I guess the Ass in assume really would have been me in this case. Especially if I paid all that money out and only received 50% profit.

I’m very glad that read this post.

Well,

Right now I feel for the HQN authors who must be reeling right now.  I don’t know what I would do, or how I would feel in your position, but one of the things that has impressed me about the romance writing community is the willingness to be supportive of one another.

When I was starting out, I knew nothing, and it was through the collective knowledge of other authors that have tread this path that I learned, and still learn what is what.

Because this doesn’t effect me, I probably should keep my big trap shut and stay out of trouble, but then I bear no risk when others are going to bear so much.  I feel I should bear something, so I’ll state my honest opinion.

I have nothing against good self-publishing where the terms and expectations are transparent.  I have nothing but respect for the authors willing to put in the effort to make a difficult venture like self-publishing work.  If you think it is the best business solution to you, or would be fun and worth the money, go for it.

What I have a problem with is the duplicity of using the Harlequin name.  On one hand, when talking to the industry, Harlequin seems to be saying Horizons will not share any of the Harlequin Brand, but then in the same breath they are saying that the Harlequin Brand is valuable and should be valuable to the people they’re selling this service to.  What exactly are you selling, then?  To advertise to the authors, we’re Harlequin, you can trust us because you can trust our brand, but then completely shut the authors out of using the brand to promote the books, seems unfair to me.

Then as others have stated, there are better self-publishing business models out there that give the author more favorable rates and terms.

I know it has gone around that we shouldn’t care if people out there make mistakes, but here’s the bottom line.  At some point, other published authors cared if I made mistakes, and through doing so, prevented me from making them.  I have to pay that forward by being willing to fairly contribute to this conversation in an open and honest manner.

Now at the very least, if an author knows nothing about any of this, wants to know more about Horizons, and they Google the company, I’m sure some of this will pop up somewhere, and they can consider it while making their decision.

As for the authors who will have to bear the brunt of the RWA decision, I’m so sorry you will have to sacrifice for someone else’s stance.  I hope each form your own stance and whatever your opinion, use the strength of your conviction to get through this.  It may take a while, but I do think we’ll all find the right path for us and get through, however we choose to publish.

Eva, I don’t think RWA had a choice.

I am willing to bet you a drink that at some point in time they are going to have to go back on this stance and that is going to make them look even more stupid.

In the end they’re going to have to allow vanity/subsidy presses (or cut all new HQN authors loose) and that (allowing those presses) opens a HUGE can of worms.

OR they could say something like, If you get an agent you are PAN. Which leaves out all e-pubbed authors who are going it on their own. They should ahve sat on this decision for a week and hammered out the details. RWA doesn’t make or break HQN.

I think they cut off their nose to spite their face.

Malle said:

I think we may all be getting pretty tired of this topic – at least for today! – as the conversation seems to be going around in a circle with those who believe self-publishing/vanity publishing is evil and should be outlawed and others who see it as another choice for writers. You know where Harlequin stands!

Um, I think this is a misrepresentation. I AM a self-publishing author and I think what Harlequin is doing is stupid, unprofessional and borderline unethical for the reasons some have mentioned (funneling authors, probably often newbie authors to your vanity pub)

Also vanity publishing and self-publishing are quite different. When someone TRULY self-publishes… they have their own imprint, they have their own ISBN numbers, they’re in control of every aspect… that is a business model that at least has SOME chance of success.

Vanity publishing, on the other hand, where you pay for overpriced packages and services for what generally ends up being a subpar product with limited distribution options, that is NOT a sustainable business model.

Excuse me, actually it is… for the vanity press. NOT the author.

So please don’t misrepresent those of us who don’t like what’s being done here as “anti self-pub”  I am very pro self-pub. I’m just anti using a tough economy as an excuse to compromise your ethics.

Perhaps it’s too early to tell, but what I wonder what will happen to Harlequin’s authors who aren’t making the sales numbers.  Does this mean that they’ll get their contracts cancelled and “suggested” that they take their next book to Horizons to see how it does there before they decide to invest in them again?  Scary thought.

Also, I agree with what FranW said.  RWA has to apply their rules across the board.  I commend them for taking a stand on this.  But the fallout is going to hurt like a SOB.  What happens to all of those authors who hold seats on the boards across RWA who are solely published with Harlequin?  Do they have to give up their positions?  Good lord, is that going to be a mess.  And what about the RWA Literacy Signing?  Will Harlequin authors be able to sign now that they’ve been basically labeled vanity press authors?  If so, a lot of money will be lost.

RWA is going to have to come up with a plan to salvage the numerous HQN authors, even if that means breaking down their publishing recognition standards to the imprint level.  Glad I don’t have that job.