Smart Bitches Trashy Books | All of the romance, none of the bullshit.

I tend to use Amazon as a sort of search engine--if a book is out, it’ll be out there (or so I thought, until they failed to list one of mine on the UK site).  I do often shop elsewhere though, especially for DVDs and music, because they’re often cheaper.

But the thing about Amazon is they’re international.  I can tell people on both sides of the Pond to look for my books there, and everyone’s heard of it.  I know of other US book sites, and other UK ones, as well as various other international ones, but it’s a big list to carry around in my head, especially if you have to spell it out for a potential reader.

I don’t expect it’ll make me boycott Amazon, because I’m a) too poor and b) too lazy, but it might make me think twice.

I have bought (guesstimate) 15-20 POD’s in the past 3 years. Not counting Ellora’s cave books. There are some entertaining books that don’t always “fit” the mainstream moulds.

I’d hate to see Amazon mess the ease of that up.I’d especially hate it if I were an author.

In the past year I’ve not used Amazon as much because the shipping times are so slow if you don’t buy the 79.00 prefferred shipping plan. I find overstock.com or bn.com ship a LOT faster.  I do admit to using Amazon’s search feature regardless of where I buy.

Like I said over at Dear Author, I think this is another case of where we’ll see the power of the blogs. Get the word out and let’s see if we don’t affect change ( or stop change?)

I haven’t bought a book from Amazon in years, since they got all goofy and made small presses buy into their co-op program and changed their recommendations to a paid service, too. I’ll use them for research, but turn around and buy my books either from a local indie or Powells.

Put this news with Lori Perkins’ post today at her blog and man, you gotta wonder if it matters that fewer people are reading. They may be the smart ones, to avoid all the ugliness that’s about to unfold in front of us.

As I understand it, POD companies can still stock their books with Amazon, the way any publishing company can, with the usual percentage cuts all the traditional publishers deal with.  It’s not that Amazon is saying they won’t list any PoD books any more.  It’s saying the ones that aren’t done through their PoD service won’t get special treatment any more.

To me, this seems fair enough.

For what it’s worth, I have nothing on Amazon. I don’t shop there either. (I’m a Wally person because it’s right here.)

But…

I do view this situation as bullying and strong arming a situation that could have been done with much better customer service in mind.

Yes, two publishers that I know of were affected as of Saturday morning, their links gone. It didn’t matter if the book was available in Kindle or not.

One of the problems was the Advantage program that was signed onto by authors and publishers both was discontinued with no notice. So now, those same books are now only listed, for the same fee. There’s been no mention (as of yet) of reimbursement or refunds for that service being discontinued without notice. Amazon also required a three book purchase in many cases, one for the Search Inside feature, which has also been removed from these same books, and two for stock.

Granted, I know part of the plan for some was to have buyers see the exorbitant price charged by Amazon to then view the “Other Sellers” to buy, which often times is the POD press.

The forums have been going over the cost differences and how in some regards Amazon will be cheaper with a higher payback, HOWEVER, what I see is a chance for Amazon to charge for the book’s production through BookSurge then AGAIN when they sell the book through Amazon, charging the author or publisher twice for the same product. I haven’t seen them dispute this idea. The quiet way they are handling this doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies of trust either.

I’m withholding a decision until I see how this whole thing shakes out a month or two down the road. 

Like you, we use Amazon Prime for any number of things (in our case, it’s the Huge-Ass-Box of Seventh Generation Toilet Paper, not diapers, that gets drop shipped to us regularly).  I preorder through Amazon at times because the only bookstores near me don’t do preorders and I know that publishers pay attention to how many books are pre-ordered.

Amazon’s decision doesn’t affect me much as far as a practical consideration.  If I look through my purchases, 99% of them, if not more, are from large houses.  I’ve been burned too often by books published through POD-using presses, even the better known ones.

Generally, I buy small press books at conferences or from author/publisher websites where I can read substantial excerpts.  If I read the excerpt and like it, I’ll order it even if I do have to pay the shipping because I can’t get it Prime from Amazon, so not having the “buy” button doesn’t bother me.

But, of course, there’s more than just the practical aspect of whether I can get the books I want where I want to get them.

Financially, Amazon is definitely cheaper than the other possibilities for me for books.  But finances aren’t everything.  I don’t shop at Wally World, I use local independents for anything I can (local camera shop, local produce shop, local shoe shop...), and I try to buy products that are made in countries where worker protection is strong.

I object to Amazon’s decision on moral/ethical grounds.  I hope they’ll wise up and change their minds, even if it’s just because this plan is a public relations nightmare. If it doesn’t...that will be problematic.  Borders is going away, Barnes and Noble doesn’t carry half the stock that interests me, and finding a local independent is well-nigh impossible.  (We have a local independent bookstore in the next town, but they sneer at romance.)

For the moment, I’m in a holding pattern.  Powells often can’t ship me what I want nearly as fast as Amazon, but I’d consider that if Amazon doesn’t shape up. 

(I guess I am hoping this turns out to be like “New Coke,” which just peeved everyone and made them happy to see the return of “Coke Classic.")

So far I have only seen Whiskey Creek and Publish America effected by this at all.

I have not heard many other ePublishers stating they had any issues yet and I have not seen these strong arm tactics being documented in actual emails.

So until then I have to wonder who actually will be denied sales through Amazon and who won’t.

As far as self publishing goes. I do not see Lulu allowing Amazon to sell on their site sooooo seems to me if an author wants to sell a self published book on Amazon they would use their service of course.

So far I have only seen Whiskey Creek and Publish America effected by this at all.

Teddypig, I think that might be because Amazon is waiting for some of the existing contracts between publishers and other POD services to expire before they start pushing them to sign up.

provide69--dang, too bad we’re stuck talking boring business…

I cut off Amazon immediately. I don’t see how, as a store, allowing your stock to be purchased directly through you is “special treatment”. To me, it’s like Borders telling Random House that, unless they use Borders printers, sure we’ll stock your titles but customers will have to use the sketchier third party “at your own risk” sellers over yonder.

What is the incentive for a publisher to list their products on a site where purchases are only funnelled through third party vendors they likely have no direct relationships with? And if they see no advantage to doing so how does that affect Amazon’s effectiveness as a research centre?

Of course, this only affects POD presses so many aren’t that concerned. But Google only started out as a search engine.

I’m sticking to Powells and Book Depository which offers free shipping worldwide. So it would be great if you included Powell links although it’s ultimately up to you.

TeddyPig - One other Romance epub was also affected that I know of for sure. Vintage Romance. They are small, but they are still a business Amazon is disregarding.

I think the contracts do have something to do with it, along with the general idea that most presses don’t have the money to take on Amazon. Most will bend to stay in business, or fail, or go elsewhere knowing that they’ve lost a huge marketing cornerstone listing.

I haven’t had a chance to do more research today, but I don’t take this is an “it’s only PA and WCP” situation. They have just been the first most noteably affected.

Sounds kind of like
Q: Where does the 600-pound gorilla sit?
A: Anyplace it wants.

OK,
So Vintage Romance whom I have never heard of is effected. But still… so far we have a POD competitor making allegations against Amazon/BookSurge and people implying Publish America does not have lawyers.

I am still on a wait and see about all this.

I have a bunch of personal opinions on this as a reader, a writer, and an editor (in fact, I used to edit for WCP). But I’ll keep that invective to myself for the moment.

Now, as a popular culture observer, however, I have to wonder how Amazon could make such a stupid move. If their own business model has taught them anything, it has taught them that you DON’T prosper in retail, particularly in media, by RESTRICTING consumer choice. Amazon started out a bookstore, and for the first several years of its existence failed to turn a profit. Now they’re an everything store, and they’re doing great. Why? CHOICE.

Also, with the Kindle and now with this dumbass...er...questionable move, their fate depends on the success of DRM. DRM is doomed to failure. Anything you can code, someone can hack. It’s a dead-end technology. You can’t stop file sharing any more than you can stop someone from lending a paper book.

In short, this will hurt business even without a boycott.

I haven’t used Amazon for a few years (not including Xmas and bday gifts that people put on their wish lists and that I can’t find elsewhere, which bugs the crap out of me). I shopped there constantly until I discovered they’re pretty red, as in they give vast amounts of cashola to the Republican party.

I don’t shop through your links because they’re Amazon. I *would* shop through them if I were purchasing from another store. Of course the brighter blue, the better I’ll sleep at night, but after Amazon’s bollocksy games lately, I’m not going to be picky.

I, too, would like to see how this shakes out and who’s adversely affected.  But so far, the situation comes with a big ol’ sucking sound.  It reminds me of how eBay started strong-arming both buyers and sellers once it acquired PayPal.

For now, I’m only going to use Amazon to research books that might interest me.  I get heatedly incensed when any big boy starts swinging his weight around.  That sort of behavior, whether personal, corporate or governmental, has never sat well with me.

Nobody mentioned Bamm.com as an alternative yet. 

I used to shop there exclusively for books and am asking myself right now why I’d gone over to the dark side for a while.  Bamm.com is usually cheaper anyway and if you are in the military you can get the club membership for free through the AAFES site.  Requires an extra step but well worth it. 

I see that they now have that waiting game for the free shipping which they didn’t used to.  I’m going back to Bamm.com instead of Amazon from now on, unless somebody has horror stories about them, too. 

The only ‘problem’ is that they have offices in TN and so I get hit with the sales tax, but I really dislike the strong-arm tactics that Amazon is displaying lately.w

JessicaD, you make an excellent point about the Kindle, that there’s no real way to protect against file-sharing—as much as my friends and I have been discussing it, I’m embarrassed to say that point didn’t even occur to us.

One of the interesting issues here, at least to me, is that Amazon seems to be attempting to turn itself into a technology company.  It’s not, though: it’s a retailer, and designing technology requires a very different skill set (and a truckload of cash that, quite frankly, I can’t picture a retailer spending).

I’ve been anti-Amazon for years in terms of purchases for myself.  I’m pretty darn sure I’ve purchased less than 10 items from them since 2000/1, and those I can 99% guarantee came from their European arms.  Sadly, AmazonUK is the only way I can get me the latest Texas and Robbie Williams CDs in any kind of reasonable time frame w/o having to pay import prices.  I’ve provided links in my reader newsletters to Amazon because it seemed to me it was the more favored online bookstore.  No more.  I’m switching over to Powell’s, BN or BAMM.  Seriously, if it weren’t for Texas and Robbie, I’d cut Amazon completely out of my shopping life.  I’m also going to start looking around for another free online alternative to Books In Print for when I work the reference desk.

I would agree that on the surface this smells of 600lb gorilla.

But I wonder if at least some of it is about quality control and shipment date control. 

I’d love to cost Amazon some sales, my sis used to work for them in Customer Service. (used to...and has PTSD as a result of getting dumped into the WTO riots when they evacuated her building right into the middle of it all with no protection)

But after hearing the stories about some of the calls she took, I can see consistent quality and production (therefore shipping) time as a reason Amazon might give for the change.  They’re the ones that get the irate calls if someone gets a bad copy, or it takes 3 months for the order to go out because they’re waiting on a POD book from an outside vendor.

So I guess I’m in the wait and see camp for this particular issue, though if you switched now I’d be doing cartwheels for the personal reason I avoid giving Amazon my money.

As a customer I am currently not shopping at Amazon.  But I think authors and referrers need to follow their market and provide Amazon links.  But perhaps add B&N and Powells as options?

I’m a firm believer in the free enterprise system.  Anything that interferes with that, or smells of monopoly gets my goat every time.

As an example, check out gas prices.  Just control the supply (ie refinery network) and you totally (and artificially) control the price to consumers...thus $4.15 per gallon of diesel this week.

And, didn’t Microsoft get sued for appearing to support a monopoly?

Political contributions according to my sources:
Amazon 40% Democrat & 60% Republican
Barnes & Noble 100% Democrat
Powells 100% Democrat
Borders 0%, instead give to literacy programs and support the arts.

My question is this:  What has Amazon been doing with PoD press that it hasn’t been doing with the larger houses?  Is it like Barbara suggested, that they have been treated differently before this and won’t be now?

I also shop at Amazon a lot, and am a Prime member.  I also shop at chain and local bookstores.  I haven’t read anything yet that inclines me to stop.  I don’t shop at the Mart, but not (perhaps) for the same reasons that others do not (my choice was made off of criminal charges brought against them). 

The beauty of free enterprise in a free society is that there are choices: for the lowest price, for the most ethical business, etc.  That doesn’t always mean that any one person’s choice is destined to survive the business run.

Perhaps it would be best to offer both choices on SB?  It seems that people are going to the sites they prefer, either way, but would it be time-effective versus the benefit to the site (referral $ for SB) to post more than one book buying option?

We have a corporate account and buy lots of stuff through Amazon.  In fact books are the least of what we buy.  Personally, I’ve been buying more books since I received my Kindle, but as downloads not hardcopy.  (Actually, I think I’ve bought maybe 3 POD books in my life.) I buy media lots of different places-- where I can get the best price, but local independent bookstores are all used bookstores and the big stores don’t carry a wide selection of DVDs. 

Of course I have have an audible account which is now owned by Amazon(?).  I also have an Audiotogo account but the Audible is the one with a decent selection. 

I don’t have any reason to boycott Amazon although I’ve wasted more time that I should have thinking about what Amazon is up to right now.

I’m a fan of Powells.

Spider, my understanding from back in the day was that Amazon had some sort of program to reach out to small presses (which in practice tends to include the self-published folks).  They may still have something in place for all I know (I don’t work for them, so this is all based on what I hear from authors and others in the book industry), but from what I’ve heard recently, they’re currently going towards a one-size-fits-all arrangement with publishers—and financially speaking, this doesn’t work with the very small presses. 

So yes, if this is accurate, then they have been treating small publishers differently, and are trying to move away from that.

My emotional reaction is one of distaste. One wants to root for the little guy and this decision of Amazon’s seem’s to walk all over the little guy.

Except, the little guy still has options and doesn’t have to sell through Amazon if he doesn’t want to. This could be a good thing for the little guy.

Also, after reading about BookSurge and then reading the Amazon.com statement on PODs, and thinking about it some, it seems that with the inclusion of all the big publishers that Amazon is heading in some way toward vertical integration.

In terms of a business model, it makes sense. Controlling the means of production and product dissemination can keep costs down—and increase a company’s bottom line.

However, small publishers may breathe a little easier knowing this:

“. . .there is *no request for exclusivity*. Any publisher can use Amazon’s POD service just for those units that ship from Amazon and continue to use a different POD service provider for distribution through other channels.

Alternatively, you can use a different POD service provider for all your units. In that case, *we ask that you pre-produce a small number of copies of each title (typically five copies), and send those to us in advance* (Amazon Advantage Program-successfully used by thousands of big and small publishers).

“We will inventory those copies. That small cache of inventory allows us to provide the same rapid fulfillment capability to our customers that we would have if we were printing the titles ourselves on POD printing machines located inside our fulfillment centers.

“Unlike POD, this alternative is not completely “inventoryless.” However, as a practical matter, five copies is a small enough quantity that it is economically close to an inventoryless model.”

Amazon.com statement on POD, March 31, 2008.

So, let’s sit back, have some Sangria or a gin and tonic and watch those market forces work.

I would purchase from Powells and I have from B&N, and I wish I could purchase online from Borders. I resent using Amazon to purchase stock from Borders (irrational, I know).

I’d put in a vote for Powells.  They’re quite awesome on their own and are somewhere I can feel good shopping, which is no longer the case with Amazon.com.  The case you noted is just one of many sketchy business decisions they’ve made over the years (in the interest of full disclosure, I’m a former employee of Amazon along with many of my friends); the big deciding factor for me was the insultingly poor customer service I got with my last order.  They’re dandy when they get things right, which is 99% of the time.  When it goes wrong, jeebus help you… Every time I’ve had to contact Amazon customer service over the last five years, they’ve gotten progressively worse. 

There are so many smaller and/or independent booksellers out there who still care about customer service, I’d rather give my money to them.

Here are some articles and reaction on Amazon’s decision:

Publisher’s Weekly
http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6546490.html?desc=topstory
Take a look at the comment from Fred Zimmerman, Publisher of Nimble Books, LLC in Ann Arbor, MI.

Writer’s Weekly
http://www.writersweekly.com/print/the_latest_from_angelahoycom/004597_03272008.html

Juno Books (a nice set of links at the end of the blog entry here)
http://juno-books.com/blog/?p=391

Murder by 4
http://murderby4.blogspot.com/2008/03/amazon-to-force-pod-publishers-to-use.html

Wall Street Journal (subscription needed)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120667525724970997.html

BookSquare
http://www.booksquare.com/amazon-changes-pod-tactics-removes-velvet-gloves/

African American Literature Book Club
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/35522.html

Got to go.

Sorry for the ickiness of the links...:(

So, let’s sit back, have some Sangria or a gin and tonic and watch those market forces work.

I, too, am relieved by Amazon’s March 31 statement. But this issue has been circulating around the internet for what, a week? And they’re only saying this now? I’m thinking this is some serious backpedaling in the face of all the outrage. Not that I’m ungrateful, mind you....

Dragon Moon Press has already been affected, too. They’re the publisher that carries several of the big, original podcast novelists like Tee Morris (fantasy) and Scott Sigler (scifi/horror).

I’m another who would like to see Powell’s linked.

Hey, one never knows, it might get them to up their romance section (which sucks).

My opinion on Amazon, and mostly neutral, because it doesn’t like I’m going to be affected~but it smacks of bullying to me.

Outright bullying.

The ‘statement’ they issued on 3/31 reads like backpedaling to me, backpedaling WITHOUT acknowledging they are backpedaling.

Yeah, it does change things, but they are still throwing their weight around and I’m not buying the ‘customer-friendly’ line either, just because I’ve shopped at Amazon enough to know ‘customer-friendly’ isn’t their priority.

I’m in their Affiliate program because yeah, some people do prefer Amazon but I’m rethinking and I’ve already joined Powell’s program.  I’m debating about deleting the Amazon links.  For right now, I’m just going to wait and see what happens in a few more days before I decide.

I use Amazon all the time for research—I’m a librarian, and it’s almost always easier to use Amazon than WorldCat (WorldCat.org) to look up book titles, etc.  However, I haven’t bought a lot of books from them lately. Mostly, I’ve been getting used books from paperbackswap.com. I’ve never used Powell’s, but I’d be willing to try it.

They did post something saying that if you have at least 5 copies stocked, they will not pull your button. I have had books printed by booksurge and I am sorry, the quality sucks. Sucks big time. Samhain uses LSI, and they are much better in quality. Maybe they have changed, but I truly think they are trying to strong arm LSI out of sales and got a bunch of pissed off publishers instead.
I have a feeling in my next update for the website, Barnes and Noble and BAMM are going to be listed before amazon for click through sales.
And thanks for pointing out they are red. BAMM and B and N from now on.

It’s not just POD publishers.

Amazon made calls last week to some print publishers who have some of their books exclusively available in POD format, informing them that those books they make available only through POD will loose their buy link and only be listed as ‘available from these other retailers’ unless publishers put those titles into the BookSurge program.

I’m not sure how I feel about their new policy--it doesn’t really affect me as I haven’t bought any POD books--and I haven’t read enough of the info to decide whether I think it’s fair or not. I do order quite a bit from Amazon and pretty much love them as a resource, although I do need to look into their practices a bit more evidently.

I used to work for BookSurge though and can say that they are on the sucky side. Some of the people are super nice (the owner’s brother is a good friend) but their corporate policies and how they treat their sales staff is awful.

My husband has always preferred Powell’s and they have worked out well for us. I have been using Amazon due to familiarity but will probably stop now. A couple of authors in one of my online groups have already had their books become unavailable through Amazon.  If your buy buttons linked to Powell’s, I’d be fine with that.

Does Amazon’s decision to force vendors to use their POD service in order to use their bookstore affect your desire to shop at Amazon?

Nope.

Not even a bit I’m afraid.

As far as I can see, Amazon are looking out for number one.  They’ve identified a way to generate more revenue for themselves, and quite frankly, I can’t blame them for that.

But then I’m not an author, and I don’t own a small press.

Amazon’s contract will affect your pocket book, however. One of the stipulations in the contract is that the publisher agrees to not undercut Amazon’s price, even on the publisher’s own website. So the publisher cannot offer a price that is lower than Amazon’s (who requires a whopping 48% discount on the list price). Amazon, however, can sell it for less.

Sweet. For Amazon.

Writer’s Weekly has all the details.

And you thought it was just about who pubbed the books....