Smart Bitches Trashy Books | All of the romance, none of the bullshit.

I live in Boise Idaho and have never been to NYC (I’m not totally provincal but never been to NYC).  I know what LaGuardia, the Mets (as opposed to the Met)and the Isles are.  Heck, I’d even know what the author meant if she referred to Steinbrenner’s baseball team as the spawns of satan.

I live in a small town in Georgia and even I know where and what. When things and places are described this way, it kind of loses its naturalness (is that a word?) and fluidity.

PS - This is my first post!!!!

I’m not a big sports fan nor do I travel extensively, but I could still recognize the sports teams and airports of most major cities in the US. (I’m from NY/NJ so in this instance the point is kind of moot.) I think that was way overkill...but at least she didn’t refer to JFK as the John F. Kennedy Airport.  Or did she?

Hey SandyO, small world!  I’m in Nampa!  And yes, I too know what “the Mets” and “La Guardia” are when I read them that way.  I am like Sarah in the fact that if people in a book aren’t speaking like they’re from the area, it sounds weird.

Hell, I live near Taranna, and I know who The Islanders are. I’ve never been to The Big Apple and I know the difference between The Mets and The Met.

In Toronto, the larger venues change their names so often to reflect corporate ownership, we hardly know what to call them anymore. The Air Canada Centre is the ACC, and the CN Tower is just The Tower. However, what used to be the Skydome has now become The Rogers Centre. Ugh.

I just finished a book and it was set in the DC area and the locations were a little off and where ppl lived etc. It threw me out of the world she built many a time. I ended up skimming the end of the book b/c i was fed up with it. I found it annoying since I like some research done.

For Harlequin, I err on the side of explaining (because if I don’t the eds will put it in for me), but that mostly means saying ‘Red Sox’ rather than ‘Sox’ and ‘Mass Pike’ rather than ‘the Pike.’ Even then, I try not to overdo it, because readers are smarter than that.

For the upcoming single titles, I just write it how I ‘hear’ it in my head and trust the reader to interpret.  As a reader, I far prefer an author who gives me credit for having some frigging brains and an ability to interpret in-context.

As a side note, one of the most jarring things for me is when a character in a Boston-based book or TV show (Crossing Jordan does this regularly) talks about taking ‘the three’ or ‘the ninety-three’ to get places-- using ‘the’ preceeding a road number is a California thing!

Word verification: island97, i.e. where I’d like to be right now, sitting on my butt with an umbrella drink!

I’m a country snob I guess....I usually try no to read ‘big city NYawker’ stories.  Yes, we in fly over country can look down our noses a bit too and we don’t feel a dab of envy either.  I just feel claustrophic I guess...I can’t fathom why anyone would want so many people around them and stay sane.

I live in the woods in the boonies of Georgia.  (Run outside in my underwear to feed the chickens...THAT’s how rural).  And no, I wouldn’t have a clue as to what they were talking about in NY as far as sports teams go.  I also wouldn’t really give a rats ass either because don’t watch sports so I’d figure it was local color etc.  As long as it’s not ‘the’ story, I usually let it slide.

However, since I live in an area steeped in history (I can trace my relatives back to the 1700’s) I really enjoy stories where the author does tell and explain such things--- it adds to the story.  Especially local legends etc.  For us, it’s the Swamp Fox (country store and revolutionary hero), Ridgeland (where everyone used to go for a quickie wedding) and Tiger Ridge (erm, isolation and inbreeding at its worst-- Think the Peacocks of the X-Files), cane grindin’ season, sand gnats and ‘dem Yankees’ ain’t a sports team ;)

Don’t assume.  I like being told things again, if I already know it, I skim through it.

I actually read a Kleypas story this week that had a window into NY of the 1800’s and it was a fun read!  So yeah, give explanations, I appreciate them!

I guess that it really depends a lot on how well known the setting is--I’ve never been to NY myself, but like many others, I get the difference between the Met and the Mets. Plenty of popular tv shows have made these locations fairly well known, after all. For less well known locations, some help would be appreciated.

However, I’d rather that formal names--if necessary--appear in the narrative rather than in dialogue or inside a character’s head. Because, really, natives rarely if ever think or speak full names of places around the corner.

Of course, if I’ve never been to the place, nor heard of it, how would I know it’s the full name, yes?

A quandary, indeed.

If you’re writing a story, [...] explain place names and team names fully, even if it yanks a more local reader out of the story a bit and makes the characters sound overly formal?

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Say it ‘proper’ in the narrative at least once, but in dialogue, stay true to where the character is from.  If they’re not going to say La Guardia Airport--don’t make them ‘say it’. ^_^

I am with Tina. Narrative formal, but characters should talk informally.

Agree with Tina.

Pop Quiz for those outside Texas only (expat Texans excluded):

I know you know the football team.  But what’s the name of the Dallas baseball team?  And for extra credit, the basketball team?

If I run into this problem, I tend to err on the side of vernacular, but make an effort to surround it with some context.  For example, I mention the Scroll & Key in my manuscript.  This is one of Yale’s infamous secret societies.  Their headquarters (a.k.a a tomb) is a windowless box (though architecturally interesting) slab on College Street.  I think I mention the name of the society, where it’s located (College Street) and what it’s near, Beinecke Library.  Readers may not know that it’s one of Yale’s secret societies, but they’ll get the jist that it’s a location on a college campus and that’s good enough for me.

Perhaps, if they are so moved, they’ll look up the rest.

As long as it’s true and real to the life and language, then it won’t disturb the book.  If the team is just part of a sentence, then the reader lets it slide as you would a conversation thinking “OK, that’s a sports team, I think...whatever.  Now when is she gonna hook up with the hunk!?!”

However, if the person is going to see the team’s game---- then an added “She’d been a baseball fan since she was a baby.” Would clue the read to it being a baseball team.

Otherwise, the reader would then be thinking “Baseball? Rollerderby? Rugby?”

I also notice putting ‘the’ in front of freeways, etc. alot. It is a California thing but is jarring in a book or on TV. Arg.

the first time you mention something, use the full name. after that, you can use the abbreviated colloquial form with confidence that the reader will know what you’re referring to.

if you’re writing in a well-developed genre, you might take a chance that every reader of say, chick lit, knows who prada is, and you don’t need to define prada. but do lots of homework before you make assumptions that might confuse your reader.

for example, if readers have ever heard of laguardia, it’s in connection to the airport. however, “take me to kennedy” might mean “take me to senator kennedy,” unless you somehow make it clear that you’re referring to the big airport, instead of the big blowhard.

I live in Eugene Oregon.
If I were to write that my characters were going to go to a basketball game at “The Pitt” where would they be going? and who would they be seeing?

If I were to refer to “Pre’s Trail” where would I be?

Could you paddle a canoe down “The Mill Race” If so what decade is it in the story?

I think it’s important to take into consideration the fact that a lot of readers don’t know what those palaces are.  I love to read a book that also teaches about a place that i’ve never been. NYC is very very different though...it’s one of the most famous cities in the world everyone knows a little bit about the monuments and airport…

Oh! Quiz for Oregon Bitches… this means you Candy!
The “O” for the Oregon Ducks is a very very specific design tell me what it represents.
Hint: it’s all very Eugene specific. Sorry Eastcoasters : )

In dialog, I’d probably be irked, because if the characters are from a particular area, they should know the slang stuff.

I’ve read through most of the Stephanie Plum novels, and only once did Ms. Evanovich get the Jersey thing wrong: She talked about Giants cheerleaders.

Eeh!  Wrong!  I know for a fact that the NY Giants have NEVER had cheerleaders (it was Stephanie talking about a friend or someone from high school who supposedly became one).  I still enjoy reading those novels, but, boy, did I do a double take on that one!

I’ve known authors that were so in tune to my life to the degree I felt like I should look for spy cameras or I actually wondered if they were a personal friend writing under a pen name........

It was things like---
A joke that’d been running through my social circles for a while.
A bread pudding recipe that I’d just tried.
The colloquialisms of my state, region, even town.
Attitude towards animals, wildlife, individual independence.
Boiled peanuts and beer on Sunday afternoon.
The correct usage of “Bless your heart!”

Mostly, my behaviors/emotions/sexuality, the behaviors/emotions/sexuality of the men I knew....even verbage in relationships etc. 
Maybe even that is a regional thing.....

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I’ve also known authors who wouldn’t know an ‘I suwannee’ if it bit them on the ass.....
Who think there is only one Peachtree Street in Atlanta,
Who think the Geechee, Gullah and Low Country dialects are the same.
Who don’t know what a cooter is ;)

Hey Sarah--just curious: in that book, was it Central Park east or west? I’m only asking because I have vague memories of a place near the bottom of the park on 5th (although maybe not 60th) where there are steps up out of the park from a little rocky area. I had to meet friends there once for a party and I was totally thrown when they kept saying “we’re by the steps.”

I get annoyed when people don’t speak in books the way they do in life. I think it’s up to the author to allow the reader to deduce from the context what’s going on--otherwise it’s just way to jarring. (Although, that two Penn Stations thing throws me into a panic every time I’m on a train.)

Methinks the copy editor won re: the New York Mets, etc.

In other words, I’m betting big $$ the writer didn’t write it that way, but the CE decided readers are stupid and wouldn’t know what the writer was talking about.

I know.  I’ve had it happen to me.  Usually, I catch it and change it all back.  But stuff gets messed up.  Like on my first single title for Pocket, all the Spanish is wrong.  Okay, not all...but quite a bit.  I’d done the best I could, knowing I was making errors because I’m not fluent, but then I had someone go over all of it and make the fixes.  Only...the fixes were never incorporated into the final version even though I sent it all to the publisher, my editor approved it, etc.  I was horrified.  I’d spent a lot of time making sure it was right before publication...but no.  Things happen, I guess.

I’m in Tampa.  Our NFL team is the Bucs.  No one calls our (pitiful) baseball team the Devilrays...it’s just the Rays.  (Of course, no one liked the name when they first came up with it, either and considering their record, we rarely talk about them at all.) I expect the same from other cities.

BTW, SB Sarah...does this mean I can email you with questions about my currently NY-based book?  Pretty please?

:-)

As a reader, I’d rather the author go for authenticity than explanation. Whether in dialogue or the internal monologue of a character, have him/her refer to the location/entity in the vernacular: “LaGuardia,” “the Mets,” “MoMA.” I’m a big girl; if I don’t understand a reference, I can look it up on Teh IntarWebs. What I hate is when a character thinks of something in terms they wouldn’t use either in saying something to another character, or in thinking to themselves.

For example, any book set in Minneapolis (where I live) would need to have characters refer to the University of Minnesota as “the U” because that’s how everyone refers to it informally: only newscasters say “the University” or “University of Minnesota.” With luck, the author of said book would provide enough context that the reader could figure out the reference.

Sharyn McCrumb has a series of books (not romances) set in East Tennessee.  Since most of my relatives live in the area, I’m very familiar with the setting.  I was thinking of how she explained local areas (that are not as well known as NYC sights).

I specifically remember a scene where a character was going to the VA Medical Center in Johnson City.  As I was reading that, I’m thinking “Hey, that’s Mountain Home”.  I turn the page and the next line is “the locals call it Mountain Home.”

(I remember this because I have a personal interest in Mountain Home, my mom worked there many, many years ago and a co worker set her up on a blind date.  That’s how my mom met my dad. ;) )

I hate it when these little things take me out of a story, but unless they’re really awful (like the Eiffel Tower reference in the Regency), I can live with it.  I was reading A History of Love last week and the author had a character standing next to the pantyhose display in Bloomingdales.  In 1954.

Those of us of a certain age remember our first pair of grown up stockings, and they were held up with a garter belt.  Pantyhose didn’t come on the market until the late 60’s/early 70’s. 

It’s an anachronism that should have been caught by someone, but if the book’s author and editor are in their 20’s, I can see how they might not know that and forgive them their trespasses.

Deal, Sarah...thanks!

Honestly, one of the best “tour guides” I ever had when researching a book was the homeless guy in San Franscisco who knew all the lingo and told me which areas to avoid when I was walking around.  Another was a fisherman named Big Tony who took me around the Pier.  The best tour guide, however, was a Boston native (while researching Boston, natch) who I had to pay...but he was amazing.  Made me spend hours in a cemetary I thought I wouldn’t use in the book...but I loved it so much, I ended up working it in.

That kind of thing drives me crazy. I’m still scarred from Douglas Coupland talking about mangrove trees in Tallahassee(!) in “Generation X” lo these many years ago. I think (I hope) he meant magnolias…

I do my best to write in context of both the characters and of the story overall, so I probably don’t overexplain locations.  I’d like to think that if the locations really needed the explanation, either my editor or my copy editor would have dinged me on it. (Responsibility is all mine; the editors are a second and third pair of eyes to help keep me honest.)

Yep,
I remember the birth of panty hose (I was SO glad to get rid of that damn garter belt!)

I had another jarring moment when an author had a woman who was constantly abusing vodka and vicodin.....in the 1970’s! 

I was pissed. (Vicodin got FDA approval in 1984).

Oh and don’t get me started on the ‘I Dream of Jeannie’ dressed dancing girls in Egypt, circa 1820!?!?!?

I think there’s a fine line there, since some of the larger city landmarks are assumed to be common country-wide knowledge.  If an author were writing about my hometown of DC, then I think it would be overkill for her to state the exact geographic locations of the Washington Monument or the Lincoln Memorial, since everyone over the age of 7 should already know that those landmarks are located on the National Mall in downtown DC.  If she were writing about something less well known like the National Cathedral, then she would be justified in adding a few pertinent details about its location.  And yes, for God’s sake, she should get those details right.  It’s amazing how buildings, streets, and entire neighborhoods can disappear or be relocated in movies and books about DC.

Security word:  wife81.  Slow it down, Ramesses!

I don’t like to be jarred out of a story.  To me, it makes more sense to have it in the book as the character would think or say it.  Usually, even if one isn’t totally familiar with what’s being referred to, you can figure it out from the context.  “Take me to Kennedy” if someone is headed on a trip should be obvious, even if the reader doesn’t know all the airports in NY. 

And who was it who commented on putting “the” in front of the freeway?  We totally do that here in SoCal.  So if I were writing something that were based here and a character was speaking (or even thinking) about what freeway to take, it would have “the” in front of it.  Because no one says, “Hmm...I wonder how the traffic on Interstate 10 is?” They think, “Hmmm..., I wonder on how traffic is on the 10.”

Forgot to say that it can go *too* far the other way.  I was reading a historical recently that made me keep thinking that the author wanted to make sure that everyone knew how much research she’d done and how she was trying to make everything so realistic.

End result?  I wanted to smack the hell out of the heroine for being so prissy and sanctimonious, I was tired of hearing about the smells, and tired of the author trying to use the language ("cant" in her words) of the time.  If it hadn’t been a book on my Sony Reader, I’d have thrown it against the wall.  Several times.  Thus identifying the pitfalls of reading electronically - you can’t just pitch it in annoyance.

Pretty much hell to the no on geographic references in front of major landmarks in super famous cities. It ruins what could otherwise be an excellent book. If you know the story is set in City X, I think everyone can safely assume the airport and sports teams are the ones for that city. People who make up cities don’t have to preface everything with the city name, so an author writing about New York certainly doesn’t need to.

Same thing when an author totally disregards something that should be there--like when the heroine has the vapors from her corset and swoons, then ten minutes later when she and the hero are about to have The Sex, he can just yank her dress off in five seconds to get to her heaving breasticles? So wrong! It’s possibly even more wrong than that to talk about the New York La Guardia Airport. Gah!

As a side note, one of the most jarring things for me is when a character in a Boston-based book or TV show (Crossing Jordan does this regularly) talks about taking ‘the three’ or ‘the ninety-three’ to get places-- using ‘the’ preceeding a road number is a California thing!

I had to quit watching that show because the way her father calls jer “JAW-dun” as some kind of overdone Boston touchstone drove me MAD.

I agree with those who said spell it out in narrative, but not in dialogue.  Generally I’ll use something a little more formal than I would with my friends---using Patriots instead of Pats, for example---but I don’t think it needs to be spelled out. Especially the airports and such.

But even if it’s not well-known, like LaGuardia or Logan, something like “flying into EBF Central” is pretty self-explanatory.

The idea of one guy saying to his buddy, “Hey, wanna go watch the Boston Red Sox beat the New York Yankees tonight?” is probably the most amusing thing I’ve heard today, though.

Miri quoth:
“Oh! Quiz for Oregon Bitches… this means you Candy!
The “O” for the Oregon Ducks is a very very specific design tell me what it represents.
Hint: it’s all very Eugene specific. Sorry Eastcoasters : )”

Erm?  I’m feeling a bit ignorant, here.  I’m slightly eastside of Stumptown, but I don’t know about that particular “O”.  Tell?

Verification word = ‘instead69’,… is that a suggestion?  “Oh, my!” she muttered and fluttered as she fanned herself.

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Nope, not in NorCal.  We say “Take 80 to 580.” No one says “Take the 880.” We also don’t say “the BART,” which shows up all the time in books. 

Drives me crazy when a writer who is not from here tries to be specific and gets it all wrong:  cable car bells are heard in ‘hoods without cable cars; busses run on incorrect routes; etc.

I’m setting some scenes for my next book in NYC.  I invited my NYC pals over for dinner and grilled them about geographic and other details.  My editor lives in NYC and she can fix anything my California butt gets wrong.

Oh, and to stay on topic…

I read a blurb for a book last week that mentioned I-95 running through Vegas.  That took me aback, but when I mentioned it I was told that there’s a US 95 in Vegas and that some west coast transplants refer to it as “I-95”. 

Could be some strange local custom, but it did leap out at me as wrong.

And one of the reasons I like setting my own books in North Florida is it gives me a good excuse to take the day off and drive to Fernandina or St. Augustine or up to the Suwannee to get a feel for the areas I’m writing about.  Maybe I’ll set my next book in Maui.[g]

Nope, not in NorCal.  We say “Take 80 to 580.” No one says “Take the 880.”

Depends.  I’ve heard it and used it both ways, ESPECIALLY with 880, but also with 5, 101, and 280.

I’m in the UK - I know what La Guardia, the Mets and the Steelers are; I’d much rather have a book which gives the names people who actually live there would use; makes me feel less ignorant if I ever go there as a tourist, too…

And as long as the locations hang together… My favourite example from this side of the pond was the US miniseries which had two characters emerging from the library of the Senate House in central London and walking into the gateway of King’s College (65 miles away in Cambridge)… Sadly, no teleportation devices were involved…

>>Nope, not in NorCal.  We say “Take 80 to 580.” No one says “Take the 880.” <<

Sorry, didn’t mean to over-generalize! 

Regardless, it’s *way* not something you hear in New England, and finding it in a supposedly Boston-set scene jars the bejeebers out of me, whether in books or TV.

Oh, and when discussing baseball, the name of the Enemy should (imho) be most properly written the ‘Yank-mes.’

As yet another DC resident, I agree that as a reader I will allow for more formalized terms from an omniscient narrator than I will from an internal monologue or any dialogue. 
One thing I always wonder about how nitpicky to get over is references to our police force.  They are called the Metropolitan Police Department which I recognize is non-specific and also, to outsiders potentially confusing since there is also a metro with it’s own police force here.  But they are never, ever called the DCPD.

In a recent La Nora novel (gasp! I know), Newbury St. in Boston is repeatedly spelled as “Newberry,” which is a) wrong and b) not even how it is pronounced.

It bugged me, because the other details about Boston were right on. I was irritated that no copy editor/editor/publisher caught this before it went to print (it was ANGELS FALL, by the way, an otherwise fabulous read).

And I think I’ve mentioned that error like fifty times already. Anyone got another dead horse I can beat?

Regardless, it’s *way* not something you hear in New England, and finding it in a supposedly Boston-set scene jars the bejeebers out of me, whether in books or TV.

You know, I was recently up in Boston for a job interview and no one used “wicked” or talked about their cahs.  I was so disappointed.  Teach me to believe regional stereotypes.  However the traffic definitely lived up to expectations.

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Well, what do I know? I was only born and raised here.  My friends from elsewhere and traffic reporters, who are often from elsewhere, use weird terms.

I was reading one of Jane Greene’s books and thought her copyeditor should have caught all sorts of gaffs with her American character’s Americanisms.  I think she used the term “going on holiday,” instead of “going on a holiday,” or more commonly, “taking a vacation.” There were lots more.

taking ‘the three’ or ‘the ninety-three’ to get places-- using ‘the’ preceeding a road number is a California thing!

Not just Cali.  I hear it in Virginia and Pennsylvania.

It’s just like all the other “regional accent” arguments (pop/soda).  We all think we “know” what’s said in our region, but reality is a lot more variable.

Imagine living in New Mexico and reading a mystery series set in New Mexico, written by two archaeologist who have only the slightest clue about the current southwestern culture. Talk about being bumped out of the story - Sheesh! These poor people showed their ignorance of new mexican food, exaggerated the weather (although I can kind of see that), changed the names of the native americans here, and reduced the number of hispanics down to one with no gender - I’m having the most trouble with that last one. 

The worse part is that I was probably one of the few who noticed those things. They should have talked to Tony Hillerman.

I’ve lived in Las Vegas going on 12 yrs now and when I was a child 4 yrs before that. So I really hate when an author writes about Vegas and they think we are only the casinos.  (Can’t tell you how many times I get ask if I live in one.)Or get our streets messed up, which are already screwy enough to drive you mad.  We have a road in less than three miles changes it’s name three times, Ft. Apache-Rampart-Durango.  That doesn’t count the street that runs parallel named Durango. (So bad directions drive me batty considering I’m giving them to people all night at my job in the hotel industry)
I was reading a novel once, set in Vegas and they left the airport going on Paradise Rd to Tropicana.  Paradise is oneway street near the airport, it only goes into the airport, through the airport, then out through a tunnel going away from Tropicana.  The way to get on to Tropicana is by a oneway street called Swenson from the airport. 
Completely threw me out of the novel and really read it half-heartedly after that.  Problem was the the author’s explanation was that the character who was driving ‘really’ knew Vegas and knew how to get out the airport area fast.  The way the author took the them they would have been hit from oncoming cars. ;)

verification code--respect 19
Sorry about the rant, we just get no respect out here.

It’s just like all the other “regional accent” arguments (pop/soda).  We all think we “know” what’s said in our region, but reality is a lot more variable.

You’re telling me.  The first couple days at Rutgers we all discovered that people from north and south Jersey apparently spoke two separate languages.  That jimmy vs. sprinkle argument went on for days.

I’m waaay over here in Scotland but I have a pretty good sense of Americanism’s and common colloquial terms.  Still, that didn’t help when I read the J R Ward Brotherhood books.  There were just so many terms and expressions that I couldn’t keep up and it felt to me that these books were not meant for an international readership.

Sometimes having a narrative that is strictly in keeping with the setting of the story can work (see Ellroy’s Black Dahlia) but Ward and others like her are not adding to the atmosphere or realism of their stories by alienating everyone outside of her corner of America.

The narrative should *always* as a rule have the explanation or full term ie La Guardia airport, but after one or two of these ‘explanations’ I think it is fine to use slang terms, nicknames or shortened versions as this would be authentic to the character or setting.

Please, won’t someone think of the foreign people?! ;)

Ward and others like her are not adding to the atmosphere or realism of their stories by alienating everyone outside of her corner of America.

It’s not just you furriners.  We Amurricans can’t figure out Ward’s writing either.

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Oh, in California we use neither of those terms.  We just say “pee-pee.”

(My pass:  feel87)

Miri said: Oh! Quiz for Oregon Bitches… this means you Candy!
The “O” for the Oregon Ducks is a very very specific design tell me what it represents.
Hint: it’s all very Eugene specific. Sorry Eastcoasters : )”

R said:Erm?  I’m feeling a bit ignorant, here.  I’m slightly eastside of Stumptown, but I don’t know about that particular “O”.  Tell?

The University of Oregon “O” emblem is designed with very Eugene and University specific land marks in mind…
The outside diameter of the “O” is the exact shape of Autzen Staduim… The inside diameter of the “O” is the exact shape of the track at Hayward field. That was a very obscure fact about my region granted…

As for authors getting street adresses wrong I would’nt know,I don’t live in a city nor a state that gets written about except by Chuck Palahniuk....don’t tell me you don’t know who that is? (no fair Googleing!)

Well, what do I know? I was only born and raised here.  My friends from elsewhere and traffic reporters, who are often from elsewhere, use weird terms.

Well, it’s true that I’ve only been a Californian for 25 years (and in No. California for, like, 20), but friends of mine who are lifelong residents use it both ways.  I didn’t know there were rules, lol.

It’s not just you furriners.  We Amurricans can’t figure out Ward’s writing either.

LOL!  Yep, sometimes inside jokes are just a little too inside.

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