There’s been a pretty interesting discussion on The Lipstick Chronicles about the girl ghetto in mystery fiction. Of the four responses, I have to say Harlan Coben’s interested me the most, especially this bit here:
TLC: Do you think male readers want a different type of story than women (i.e., gun-toting loner vs. something more relationship-oriented and emotional), or is it all about perception?
HARLAN: I think female readers may be more open than male readers. A female reader will be more apt to read, say, a Tom Clancy than a man would be to read a Danielle Steel. The female audience is also larger. That said, I hate generalizations, so maybe I should just ignore this.
I think Harlan is right: generally speaking, women tend to read more, and more diversely, than men do. However, forget the comparison to Danielle Steel. Hell, Danielle Steel books aren’t ghettoized solely because they’re women’s fiction. Let’s face it: her books just tend to be god-fucking-awful. Let’s try another author, an author who’s even more successful, one whose works are extremely well-regarded by pretty much everyone in the fiction-by-women-for-women community (barring infidels like myself, of course): Nora Roberts.
Would the average guy be caught dead reading, say, Jewels of the Sun or Irish Thoroughbred? Not on your fucking life. On the other hand, most women wouldn’t be ashamed to be seen reading books by Tom Clancy, Lawrence Block, Robert Ludlum, Clive Cussler, Harlan Ellison, etc. Hell, a significant number of women read lad lit penned by the likes of Nick Hornby et al, or gritty urban tales with a distinct masculine bent like those written by Irvine Welsh and Chuck Palahniuk, but I’m willing to bet that the numbers aren’t reversed for Helen Fielding, Jennifer Weiner or Maeve Binchy. In fact, I’m willing to bet that a woman who reads mostly male-oriented fiction, fiction that’s considered gritty and dark, is seen as exponentially cooler than a woman who reads mostly female-oriented fiction about relationships and (god forbid) squishy emotions like love and grief. The former is one of the boys. She’s cool. She’s not squeamish. She gets it. She’s not into all that girly shit.
It all boils down to the stigma of effeminacy. To be called “girly” is rarely a compliment. “You throw like a girl.” “Stop being such a girl.” “You write like a girl.”
And God forbid that a man, well, read like a girl.
Funny, my family was just talking about the general gist of this issue last night while watching a movie. For girls, there’s no social stigma attached to dipping their toes into certain things that are thought of as masculine. For boys, there’s a definite stigma attached to having an interest in things thought feminine – this seeme especially touchy in things revolving around “the arts”.
I think choice of reading material is just one aspect of that social truism. Further, I have extreme doubt that this is a social frontier that will ever see any kind of true equality.
Which is too bad for the boys, really. I mean, they seem to whine a lot about not “getting” women, but then they won’t extend themselves so far as to express an interest in the things that interest women in order to find some answers because to be caught with a Nora Roberts book is seen as *worse* for a man than to be caught with a box of tampons.
In all of my years as a bookseller I only had one man, a real book-a-holic, who would order and read romance just as avidly as all of his other genres. He was in his mid/late 40’s and lived with his wife and sister. Between the three of them, they would come in every month with HUGE pre-orders for genre fiction—romance, science fiction, fantasy, horror and mystery. They would often double order if it was a favorite author, as they could not bear to wait for one to finish the book before they could read it. They always triple ordered Nora Roberts. He was the only guy I remembered who would openly talk with me about romance novels (I was the store’s romance expert) and take my reccomendations on books. Then come back and discuss them with me, LOL.
As for most guys? They would rather die, LOL. Once on a family vacation, my dad bought a book to read from a little general store near the lake we were spending the day at. He read the book cover to cover in one sitting and really enjoyed it. (My dad is NOT a reader, so that is a big compliment coming from him.) He started raving about how fantastic the book was and telling me that “those” were the types of books I should read, instead of romance. The title of the book he loooved so much? The Cove by Catherine Coulter. A straight-up romantic suspense. I still feel glee when I pucture the look on my dad’s face when I let him in on the type of book he had just read and enjoyed!
Listening in on a conference call while reading here, so I’ll just keep on spammin’…the quote from Jane Austen brings up another thing related to this issue (and something discussed here at Bitches before). That is, in addition to the fact that men generally won’t be caught dead with a “female book” is the fact that women are supposed to feel shame about it, too. I recall that when I first starting reading in the romance genre (back at age 12 or so) it was just *understood* that these books were to be read in private, and hidden as best as possible when in transit. It’s taken several years for me to personally get over the feeling that I’m supposed to be ashamed, but I’m certain it’s still pretty strongly out there for others.
So if it’s this bad for women to be caught reading a book by and about women, how much worse for a man to be so caught?
I can’t get my boyfriend to the theatre for a “chick flick”, even when I suggest that it was possible that something could get blown up at some point in the movie (there is no promise employed here, just the vague “it could happen” in the realm of anything is possible). I can not imagine him reading a romance.
When I was younger I used to go to a UBS in Charlotte, NC owned by a couple. The husband was a WWII veteran who loved romance novels. He would take me around the store recommending his favorites. He loved Lavyrle Spencer especially the one with the brothers who loved the one woman (can’t remember the name). He would always tell me the hero “laid a load of lovin’” on the woman. Isn’t that what we all want?
I miss Hoke and his store.
Jen
A friend of mine pointed out that it all adds up to men’s experiences, whether it be in literature or film, are held up as being more of a “universal” experience that women’s. Would Harry Potter be as popular a book, if the protagonist was a Harriet?
Hmmmm…my first reaction to that “universal” theory is that I disagree with it, but when I pressed myself to state a reason why I couldn’t.
The thing is, I believe Harriett Potter wouldn’t be as popular, but only because boys would feel uncomfortable (if not committing grade school social suicide) giving her a chance whereas girls have no such impediments for reading about a Harry. In other words, it’s not necessarily the life experiences that are different between Harry and Harriett that would affect their popularity, it’s the discomfort of males reading about females.
Girls are *allowed*, if not thought downright cool, to find interest in male protagonists and their thoughts, feelings, and actions, but the reverse is not true for boys.
I could read both Nancy Drew and The Hardy Boys growing up – these were similar stories with similar structures with really just the sex of the characters to distinguish them. How many boys did I ever know who would even dare to look at a Nancy Drew? Zero.
I think it’s a symptom of caste, that our society denies even having. Males have the highest caste, so they are hesitant to read lower caste romance or “woman’t fiction.”
White readers are hesitant to read black fiction for the same reaso—because of black’s lower caste.
I think it’s simply because that’s how all we humans are.
I think Monica’s pegged part of it. But let’s face it—look at the covers we were chuckling over yesterday and ask yourself, would most guys you know want to read a book with that cover, no matter how good the story was? When I read the latest Lee Child “Jack Reacher” novel, there’s nothing about the cover that’s going to make someone snicker.
Sometimes I think we’re our own worst enemies in this business.
I could read both Nancy Drew and The Hardy Boys growing up – these were similar stories with similar structures with really just the sex of the characters to distinguish them. How many boys did I ever know who would even dare to look at a Nancy Drew? Zero.
You know, I thought about this, and the same applies for the classics. Growing up, I read Huckleberry Finn, Treasure Island, Tom Sawyer, The Man in the Iron Mask, King Solomon’s Mines, etc. I also read the Little Women series, the Anne of Green Gables series, Daddy-Long-Legs, etc. The only male I know who read Anne of Green Gables and Little Women voluntarily is my fourth brother—and he’s a twink-ish gay man who adores Celine Dion and Meg Ryan movies, so he’s not exactly the average guy, nor does he have the usual hang-ups about upholding a traditionally masculine image.
I think one of the few children’s classics that features a female protagonist but isn’t read primarily by girls is The Wizard of Oz. I’m racking my brains trying to think of another classic with substantial female presence that hasn’t been relegated to the girly fiction ghetto, but I can’t. My memory’s not the best, though—feel free to point out how wrong I am.
Oh, wait, thought of another one just as I hit the submit button: Alice in Wonderland.
I agree with Monica & Darlene- this is a symptom of both caste & cover art. Shitty ass, ROTFL, OMG you aren’t serious ?horrible cover art.
As for the Jane Austen & Bronte sisters romance novel aspect Iknow one man who loved those novels & he was adamant about them being ‘classic literature’ not ‘trashy romance novels’ his emphasis not mine.
How many men read the crossover authors? The ones who used to write romance & now write suspense. Do the fanguys know or care?
Monica, your statement makes more sense to me than the “universal male” idea, much as I must admit to some shame at buying into it (in the race-caste way, not the sex-caste one). In a way, it’s almost as though things that are considered “below us” are invisible or so much outside our consideration that they don’t register to us at all. Conversely, things considered “above us” have a whiff of attraction, in part because there’s that small element of the forbidden fruit surrounding it.
I suppose this is where one needs the opinion of a man to confirm or deny whether this applies to books written by/for women and why they aren’t read by more men: is the larger truth not that they’re ashamed to pick these up but instead that it’s as though they don’t even register on their consciousness? It’s not just that when they see them in all their bodice-ripping or pink be-ribboned glory at the store that men think “that’s not for me”, but rather that they don’t even see them at all?
Ya know. Sometimes, I just have no opinion on a subject. No thoughts congeal into a cohesive argument for any angle or tangent that would, in any way, add anything of substance to the thread. I have nothing new, mind altering or mildly interesting to contribute. But. I am enjoying reading everyone elses brain doodles on the subject and decided to post this pointless paragraph to say so. Carry on.
I must agree to all the comments made above. I have degrees in English and Library Science and we could count the number of men in either program on two hands, sometimes less. It was – and is – very rare to see men taking literature classes. We even began dubbing these poor men our “token male” in some of my classes.
I agree that a woman can be seen reading most anything without comment, but if a man pulled a Nora Roberts from his briefcase, more than a few eyebrows would be raised. In fact, in England, I read they are making a child friendly cover and an adult friendly cover for the new Harry Potter. I also agree that it’s a shame that I can happily read Stephen King, but my hubby couldn’t read any of the wonderful romance novelists out there.
Well maybe I should have spent more time explaining it but it makes a lot of sense (to me *g*): the entire unease with men reading “women’s fiction” contributes to the idea that books either written by men or featuring male protagonists will contain elements that everyone can relate to while female heroines, for whatever reason, will be so singular or “female” that only women would be able to relate.
And it applies to black fiction too: white readers won’t pick it up for several reasons, and I’m sure a primary one will be that “well I’m sure it’s just for black people, I won’t get it”.
It may not be the only element in what’s at play here but I think it’s a part of it.
As far back as I can remember this has always been the status quo.
Whereas I can read John Grisham, Jeffrey Archer Frederick Forsyth, and George Orwell, it would take a shotgun to his head to make my hubby even look at a Linda Howard book (not that I would try necessarily).
I just think it’s one of those societal dictates borne from thousands of years of Neanderthal man-traits, that deem it as bad for males to lower themselves to do what they consider to be girly things (unless they’re gay of course, then it’s almost a pre-requisite).
I remember sulking for days before hubby agreed to see Bridget Jones Diary with me. I just reminded him that he’d made me sit through the car crash that was Austin Power’s Gold Member (g)
It may have nothing to do with the covers or stigma. They just may not like it. When I was going through my Zebra Historical phase, the guys did read parts of them—the hot parts. But they didn’t much care about the rest.
A way guys may read romance is the cross-genres. My DH has read what was considered a fantasy romance, because he likes fantasy and the story seemed cool.
I mainly read what I publish as far as romance. For off-time, I read true crime, biographies, horror and suspense.
I guess I read like a guy.
I’d say that the covers probably have a great deal to do with it, however, could it not also be just a general disinterest in the subject?
Romance isn’t usually my thing (before you ask, I’m here because I like Sarah and Candy’s writing, and because I love to read, and am hoping to come across a romance that sounds good to me) and when I come across “romantic bits” in the fantasy I read, I tend to wonder “can’t they just get back to bashing each other with swords?”
Not because there is anything wrong with romance, but because I was in the mood for adventure.
Of course now that I think about it, I wonder whether the kind of romance that exists in fantasy and mysteries may have something to do with it. Much of the romance I come across in fantasy and mystery and adventure has all the appeal of the romantic parts of the last Star Wars movies. To wit, several authors I quite like otherwise write TERRIBLE romantic parts—I tend to cringe my way through them, hoping they’ll end soon.
If this is standard for romance that most guys are used to, then is it any wonder that they don’t want to read romance?
Check out this interesting little tidbit – I teach high school English (God help me), and I make every Friday Novel Day. Each kid has to read an “outside” (as in not something we’re reading in class) novel. The only requirements are that the novel not have been made into a movie and that the kid’s parents have approved of his/her reading selection. In my classroom I have probably 500 or so beat up, falling apart novels. Everything from Anne McCaffrey and Peter David, Dean Koontz, Wilbur Smith and Nelson DeMille to Queen Nora. My students very quickly realize that I read everything and that I’m good at recommending books. So they constantly have me pick their Novel Day books for them. I’ve made it a point to pick romances for the boys. No, nothing with man-titty covers, but romances none the less. Uh, ladies – they inhale them! The stories grab them and then – wham! – they realize ohmygod, there’s SEX in them thar books! And they’re hooked. Seriously. Oh – I don’t tell them that they’re reading romances.
So, what’s this say about “men” and romance? Sounds like they would actually like it if their egos allowed them to read it. Or, if they were brainwashed at an early age…
And, yes, they do read my books. But I don’t keep them in my classroom. Please. The brats need to cough up the $6.99 plus tax. It’s not like teaching pays me enough to live.
I have read Jennifer Crusie’s Welcome to Temptation and Bet Me aloud to my husband, and he loved them. He also liked one of the Stephanie Plum novels I read to him on a car trip. He wouldn’t have read any of these books by himself, but then, he doesn’t read anything without mathematical equations in it by himself.
OK. This just got even more interesting.
I’ve made it a point to pick romances for the boys. No, nothing with man-titty covers, but romances none the less. Uh, ladies – they inhale them! The stories grab them and then – wham! – they realize ohmygod, there’s SEX in them thar books! And they’re hooked. Seriously. Oh – I don’t tell them that they’re reading romances.
*Cough*
[Joking] Holy shit, woman! You are contributing to the metrosexualization of men! Who the hell is going to be left to fix my car? [/Joking]
Hee! Picturing PC’s kids reading Fetish. Can’t.
Hey I’m just doing my part to stamp out ignornance…touch the future…blah…blah.
And you should see their faces when they realize they’re reading “stuff” that lets them inside a woman’s head (and they understand that being inside a woman’s head might eventually if they’re really really lucky let them inside a woman’s panties, too). At first they look a little shell-shocked, then you can see the lightbulbs sputtering on.
Too hilarious.
(…) could it not also be just a general disinterest in the subject?
That’s entirely possible too—but that doesn’t explain why there’s such a different readership associated with, say, Nancy Drew vs. The Hardy Boys.
Much of the romance I come across in fantasy and mystery and adventure has all the appeal of the romantic parts of the last Star Wars movies. To wit, several authors I quite like otherwise write TERRIBLE romantic parts—I tend to cringe my way through them, hoping they’ll end soon.
Oh yeah, I know what you mean. Besides being somewhat stilted, most of the fantasy books I’ve read have used one of two really annoying romantic devices to keep the love interests apart until the end of book 3 (or book 5, or in the case of Robert Jordan, book 4,579):
1. The Big Misunderstanding, wherein a misunderstanding is blown out of proportion and if they’d FUCKING TALK TO EACH OTHER FOR A SECOND they’d probably sort things out within two pages. This is, obviously, unacceptable when there are 10,000 pages more story to wade through. Ref. some of the “He can’t possibly love me!”/“She can’t possibly love me!” malarkey Robert Jordan has inflicted (and probably continues to inflict—I wouldn’t know, because I gave up after book 7) on some of his characters.
2. The Enemies Into Lovers plot device, wherein the hero/heroine hate hate hate hate hate hate each other but then all of sudden: OMG I LURVE YOU my hatred was only the flip side of my love!
Another popular romantic device is the Martyrs into Lovers (ref. Aragorn and Arwen), which can be touching when done well, but can also veer into extreme annoyance when dragged on for too long or when the sacrifice is patently pointless.
And P.C.: Go you! You fucking rock.
You are contributing to the metrosexualization of men! Who the hell is going to be left to fix my car?
True, but ohhh, but then you’d have more men who’d work with you instead of against you when you want to go shoe shopping….
‘1. The Big Misunderstanding, wherein a misunderstanding is blown out of proportion and if they’d FUCKING TALK TO EACH OTHER FOR A SECOND they’d probably sort things out within two pages. This is, obviously, unacceptable when there are 10,000 pages more story to wade through. Ref. some of the “He can’t possibly love me!”/“She can’t possibly love me!†malarkey’
I fricking HATE that stuff.
It’s like,
“Why not ASK him, you stupid bitch.”
Weak Plot Device Speaks Up: “Because I can’t trust him.”
“Girl, you boinked him, you should be able to ask him a freaking question.”
WPDSU: “Well, why can’t HE ask ME? I’m the injured party.”
Wah. That highschool crap makes me nuts.
Oh, PC I absolutely adore you for doing that! That’s just what I’ve been hoping to do with my husband somehow, but have never had the cleverness to figure out how to do it. I KNOW he’d love Faking It, for example, but because I’ve recommended it he won’t touch it. On the other hand, an aunt recommended the Stephanie Plum books and he’s gobbled them up. Grr.
I also wanted to note that I asked my husband last night why he would never think to read some of the things I read. His response? “They’re not real. Life and love don’t happen that way so it seems stupid to read books like that.” This from the guy who reads James Patterson and likes movies like Aliens vs. Predator! I had to leave the room so I could laugh my ass off without having to endure the “What did I say?” face.
Romance isn’t real, but Aliens are.
I KNEW it.
I love you ladies. This topic has been something I’ve debated with friends (and some customers) for years. For me a lot of it boils down to conditioning, I cannot tell you the number of times I’ve recommended a book to a parent or teacher only to have them say, “Oh, but that’s about a girl.” I even had one woman, a kindergarten teacher, tell me that the boys in her class “just wouldn’t follow a story about a girl.”
Excuse me! They’re five!
It’s all I can do to keep from smacking these women (who come across extremely educated otherwise), and telling them that they are perpetuating this belief that it against male nature to reject a “feminine” book (and not a result of the lack of nurturing an open acceptance). It doesn’t matter if I tell them that I’ve read the book to little boys in the store, or to my nephews, and everyone wanted more. Nine times out of ten these woman will listen patiently and pick up the book, only to appear at the cashwrap without it, saying something about it being “just not right for their” little boy or students.
And yet, here are PC’s male students reading romance novels, and loving the stories no less. Of course the covers can’t have man titties, busted bodices, or professions of Lurrrrve TM on the back cover, but there are millions of books that manage to avoid this cliche. A local romantic suspense author, Lisa Jackson, has a whole series of books with covers very similar to Harlan Coben’s, and everytime she makes it on the bestsellers list, I have business man after business man come up to buy her book. They don’t seem them as romances, but as something new in the bestsellers bay that catches their interest. Many return to request her backlist and I’ve long since learned to just get them for these men rather than expose them to the fact they are reading romance. This discovery is guaranteed to kill a sale in seconds.
Funny, how just moments before they’d professed to love what they read.
Argh. I think I just went completely off topic, but I haven’t had enough caffeine to tell. What I’m trying to say is, that if boys are exposed to strong female characters or just good books with female leads early, I don’t think we’d be having this problem (or at least not on this grand scale). Sure, there will always be people who just don’t read, and men who just read Clancy (who absolutely sucks at writing anything resembling a romantic subplot) or some other “Man” book (fiction or nonfiction), but maybe, just maybe, others will open up to the possibility of whole new genres.
BSC
For me a lot of it boils down to conditioning(…)
Fuck. Yes.
I have a friend who is allegedly trying to bring up her children without the restrictions and stereotypes of their genders.
What does her daughter get?
Fluffy pink dresses dresses, wee purple unicorn dollies, cute shoes with flowers on them, and books featuring cute, fluffy little girls and their cute, fluffy adventures.
The son?
Clothing with puppy dawgs, teddy bears in manly colors (no pastels!) unadorned shoes, and books about dinosaurs and trucks.
I’ve tried to point this out to her, but I get a blank stare. People genuinely don’t notice themselves doing this to their children, even people who have sworn not to do something similar to their kids.
My daughter gets it from day care. I let her pick her own clothes and toys, and she’ll say “That’s a boy toy.”
I never told her that: she has Disney Princess and Barbie along with Hot Wheels and toy soldiers. Her books actually don’t feature fluffy chicks—she prefers books about boys, or non gender specific. I’ve always told her she can play with and be anything she wants. She told me she wants to play for the Red Sox. I’ll be damned if I’ll tell her she can’t.
But all the reinforcement in the world, and the other kids tell her the very crap I’m trying to avoid. Sigh. I should thank their parents,I guess.
Yeah, the influence outside the home starts much earlier than I would have ever imagined. My daughter started talking about things like Brittany Spears when she had never seen a video or heard a song in the presence of her father or me; we were amazed at just how much information on various aspects of pop culture she picked up from her peers and at how early that transfer of information starts.
Her father and I are similar in that we’ve always bought her things to play with that have traditionally been thought of as only for boys.
I wonder if we would have been *quite* so encouraging of exploring things traditionally associated with the opposite gender had it been a boy, though.
I suppose the cues that tell girls and boys what’s appropriate for them to know and like and be interested in are more varied and are reinforced in a wider variety of ways than I had previously considered with the end result of girls recently gaining the privilege of being “allowed” to have an interest in boyish things, but the same loosening of standards has not occurred for boys.
I suppose the cues that tell girls and boys what’s appropriate for them to know and like and be interested in are more varied and are reinforced in a wider variety of ways than I had previously considered with the end result of girls recently gaining the privilege of being “allowed†to have an interest in boyish things, but the same loosening of standards has not occurred for boys.
Yup. Think about it—what tends to make people more squeamish: a tomboyish girl, or an effeminate boy?
PC Cast – that is just so awesome. I am buying one of your books tomorrow just because I have to read a book written by someone so amazingly cool.
bookseller chick: tell me about it. I had a (grand?)mother tell me once that she couldn’t buy a caldecott honor for the toddler in her life – not because it wasn’t what she was looking for but because it was about a girl.
and fiveandfour: it will likely take a very long time to change this pattern of men and boys being unable to read fiction by and about girls and women, but I am convinced it must happen if we ever want to properly deal with things like rape and domestic violence. The idea that boys and men cannot or should not learn to empathise with women and girls and/or value “feminine” attributes (such as being sympathetic or nurturing), is (IMHO) both a symptom and a cause of high rates of male on female violence.